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Where do you think we came from? (Page 99)

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K.Universe.

Goldie

K.Universe.

Joined: 02 September 2012

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Posted: 27 March 2013 at 10:58pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

i find it weird to think that everything we experience exists in our minds (either as brain activity or something layered over). We cant possibly ever know what's "out there" for sure because what we really have is a model of reality in our minds. It might be a good model or a distorted one (for example when someone's on LSD). Even when we're sober, we see an object as solid or having color, yet we "know" it's basically an energy soup, something totally different from the way we model it. So even when we have our faculties about us, the model might at best be a fairly good one, not an accurate one.
another thing- we often talk about observer/ observed. The obvious question we've still not answered is who the observer is. The entire nervous system? That's a whole lot of energy particles. Something intangible in addition to the brain/ sensory system that we call consciousness?




Here we need to find out if our perception is continuous or discrete. Is the input feeding into the nervous system a continuous signal or a discrete sequence of events? How are we experiencing the external world that seemingly is "outside" the body? We have the sensory receptors reacting to stimuli and sending  what are called action potentials to the central nervous system. It's not like the nervous system is a standalone entity separate from the rest of the body. You have the peripheral nervous system connecting the central nervous system to the rest of the body.

So at this point, you have one connected system (the body) reacting to stimuli coming in from another connected system (the world around the body)

It's all one BIG connected system, if we think about it. Entanglement even proved it beyond a shadow of doubt. So, what separates this one big connected system into what we think are it's constituent parts and more importantly how?





Edited by K.Universe. - 27 March 2013 at 10:58pm

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K.Universe.

Goldie

K.Universe.

Joined: 02 September 2012

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Posted: 27 March 2013 at 11:42pm | IP Logged
it is quite obvious that space-time is what is behind the perception of separation.

space is separating "me" from the "rest". time is separating the events occurring in space. neither of these two (space and time) make sense unless we talk about motion.

motion itself is not understandable unless we have two reference frames relative to one another.

any discussion of "two" introduces duality. duality loops back to separation.

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Vintage.Wine

Goldie

Vintage.Wine

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Posted: 28 March 2013 at 12:01am | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum


and it could be-
f)  space that exists in our mind
g) space some people have between the earsLOL

i find it weird to think that everything we experience exists in our minds (either as brain activity or something layered over). We cant possibly ever know what's "out there" for sure because what we really have is a model of reality in our minds. It might be a good model or a distorted one (for example when someone's on LSD). Even when we're sober, we see an object as solid or having color, yet we "know" it's basically an energy soup, something totally different from the way we model it. So even when we have our faculties about us, the model might at best be a fairly good one, not an accurate one.

another thing- we often talk about observer/ observed. The obvious question we've still not answered is who the observer is. The entire nervous system? That's a whole lot of energy particles. Something intangible in addition to the brain/ sensory system that we call consciousness?

just to get some this going again...Smile


   @ All Bolds:  Absolutely ...LOL ...There is this desolation in the space that lies between the two years ..<< The feeling of SELF ...The identity that is ..which notionally separates everyone from each other ...That I guess is the biggest mystery ..We just don't know the pathway that connects us to the observable reality outside of our own system which leaves us groping for the truth at the level of Dvaita <<< As described in the scriptures ...

     I doubt if modern science  can ever help us reach there ..The way they keep ridiculing their own theories and models year after years ..And then that Finding Quantum gravity stuff Free brought in his Parting Speech ...LOL ..Now tell me why would scriptures even describe that ?  When Its for the confused lot ...LOL ..Who are still wary of asserting the Universe's exact shape ...Flat model ? or the gravity specific curved SpaceTime structure ...May be they ll add more constants ? ...A gimmick of an effort to finally agree to each other and make life easy for physics students ? LOL 

     I'm pretty sure the efforts would end at higgs particle level ..Cause unlike light, the other mass less particles don't belong to no visible spectrum ..and they are very unsteady I guess ...How are they supposed to prove the existence of such mass less particles and how could they base a entire new theory that combines QFT and immense gravity without such imaginary particles ? Cause it sounds as great as quantaizing, solving the singularity itself ...Ouch ..What funny people ...LOL

   Vintu ...Tongue









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BirdieNumNum

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BirdieNumNum

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Posted: 28 March 2013 at 12:52am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


   @ All Bolds:  Absolutely ...LOL ...There is this desolation in the space that lies between the two years ..<< The feeling of SELF ...The identity that is ..which notionally separates everyone from each other ...That I guess is the biggest mystery ..We just don't know the pathway that connects us to the observable reality outside of our own system which leaves us groping for the truth at the level of Dvaita <<< As described in the scriptures ...

     I doubt if modern science  can ever help us reach there ..The way they keep ridiculing their own theories and models year after years ..And then that Finding Quantum gravity stuff Free brought in his Parting Speech ...LOL ..Now tell me why would scriptures even describe that ?  When Its for the confused lot ...LOL ..Who are still wary of asserting the Universe's exact shape ...Flat model ? or the gravity specific curved SpaceTime structure ...May be they ll add more constants ? ...A gimmick of an effort to finally agree to each other and make life easy for physics studentsLOL 

     I'm pretty sure the efforts would end at higgs particle level ..Cause unlike light, the other mass less particles don't belong to no visible spectrum ..and they are very unsteady I guess ...How are they supposed to prove the existence of such mass less particles and how could they base a entire new theory that combines QFT and immense gravity without such imaginary particles ? Cause it sounds as great as quantaizing, solving the singularity itself ...Ouch ..What funny people ...LOL

   Vintu ...Tongue

 
hey, i know i am taking great risk when i say this but i love your posts on this thread! LOL Totally agree with the points you made above!!!
 
i think any unified theory for me would have to explain both our cosmological origins and the origins of our consciousness. Without resorting to a zillion constants like you said.

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BirdieNumNum

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BirdieNumNum

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Posted: 28 March 2013 at 11:20am | IP Logged
just addressing some of the questions above-

i am fine with interconnectedness- it's what i believe is the case. There's simply too much uncertainty about where our particles are to be sure we know where we begin and where we end.Smile

i also think there are two things going on- one is "information" and the other is obviously "material". We 'experience" color, although color is not a physical attribute of an object. That experience is in terms of material neural activity. Then we have information- the forms of objects. We model these in our minds in terms of their interactions with other objects in our minds, and add our experience of color onto them. The information itself is something transient. Either way, what "we" experience is only our consciousness, not the real world. We can't ever know what the real world is because the only thing we ever experience or "see" is the image in our minds.

An example would be the bits encoded in a digital music disk. The CD player transforms it into electrical impulses that are then amplified to drive the speakers. Sound waves get transmitted, vibrate our ear drums, send signals to the brain, and we find ourselves "hearing" and 'enjoying" the music. But what did we start out with? Bits on a disk. We experienced something that was just a model encoding data.

Almost makes me wonder if each one of us is living in a parallel world that is all in our minds, not a real world that is all substance but no mind. Smile


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Vintage.WineK.Universe._Angie_

K.Universe.

Goldie

K.Universe.

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Posted: 28 March 2013 at 12:34pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

hey, i know i am taking great risk when i say this but i love your posts on this thread! LOL


Ouch! LOL


Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

Almost makes me wonder if each one of us is living in a parallel world that is all in our minds, not a real world that is all substance but no mind. Smile


I will get back to your other stuff, including stuff posted by Vintu, at the first available opportunity. There is too much getting queued up, both in real life and in virtual:)

Regarding your point that I am quoting above: If "each one of us" exists in your mind, then what makes you think "they" will have their own parallel worlds? If each of you exist only in my mind, I would have no reason to think that each of you would have a world of your own.

 

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BirdieNumNum

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BirdieNumNum

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Posted: 28 March 2013 at 1:01pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.



I will get back to your other stuff, including stuff posted by Vintu, at the first available opportunity. There is too much getting queued up, both in real life and in virtual:)

Regarding your point that I am quoting above: If "each one of us" exists in your mind, then what makes you think "they" will have their own parallel worlds? If each of you exist only in my mind, I would have no reason to think that each of you would have a world of your own.

 

parallel as in we experience something in our minds that is parallel to the real world. Parallel. But not the same, and in fact vastly different. What we experience is a world in our minds that has processed information received from the external world. We don't experience the real world for what it is. Hope that's clear now. 

as to 'each', here's what i mean: each as in our respective minds. 'Knowing' that i have a mind, only assumption i am making is you have a mind. Feel free to correct me if i am wrong.LOL

but really, are you just trying to be pedantic/ argumentative or is that what you seriously believe? You are ready to make all kinds of extrapolations based on the science you know. Is the extrapolation made here about 'each' really such a big jump for you? LOL

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K.Universe.

Goldie

K.Universe.

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Posts: 1137

Posted: 28 March 2013 at 1:16pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

parallel as in we experience something in our minds that is parallel to the real world. Parallel. But not the same, and in fact vastly different. What we experience is a world in our minds that has processed information received from the external world. We don't experience the real world for what it is. Hope that's clear now. 

as to 'each', here's what i mean: each as in our respective minds. 'Knowing' that i have a mind, only assumption i am making is you have a mind. Feel free to correct me if i am wrong.LOL

but really, are you just trying to be pedantic/ argumentative or is that what you seriously believe? You are ready to make all kinds of extrapolations based on the science you know. Is the extrapolation made here about 'each' really such a big jump for you? LOL



Say, I exist. There I am, reacting to stimuli and processing inputs, storing metadata about external data, and "enjoying" in the process. The stuff I see/hear/smell/touch/taste is data. In that respect, you are data to me. My body itself is data to my brain/mind.

What we need to agree upon is: are there "several" minds or is there "one" mind, in the universe.

If several minds, then a mind didn't exist before the physical body. It developed/evolved along with the physical. If one mind, the bodies (physical) are only accessing it and do not have it.

So, even though you were jocular about assuming that "I" have a mind, I do seriously question whose mind it is.


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