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Lajja = Modesty = Women ?? (Page 40)

-Chandramukhi- IF-Sizzlerz

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Posted: 12 November 2012 at 10:51pm | IP Logged
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-Cruiser- IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 12 November 2012 at 10:51pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by -Chandramukhi-

Originally posted by cruiser51



@BOLD: Thats a sweeping generalization! It is a generalization and because of the same generalization society has given rise to such stereotypes.

If we are restricting this debate to issues concerning Upper and Middle-Lower Middle Class India (as I said it is IMPOSSIBLE TO generalize whole of India and their diverse set of issues and challenges)...then be it girls or boys, get chided for being loud, aggressive or for using foul languages! Again we are going in circles, repeat of RTH post here for why we have issue here "

The day a man is lectured for lack of "sanskaar" and told that "asheelta" is a "dhabba" on "mardangi". I'll print this post and eat it. " If you can understand the objection here, great or I don't have much to say


My specific question is...IN YOUR FAMILIES...(I am asking all posters here), is there / was there a case where Son/s spoke loudly, rudely/ abused and parents clapped away or looked the other way where as they went wild with rage each time the girls spoke loudly or rudely)?Shocked We have already admitted that parents will instil modesty in their children regardless of the gender. But is that the issue on hand here. No. Problem is many girls get criticized for being girls who should be Lajjasheel and modest. Again have you ever heard a statement that "Asheelta is a dhabba to manhood" I don't think so cuz that isn't a stereotype. But girls do get their share of lecture with the discussed stereotypical statement.

And just to clarify, stereotyped actions and image exist in both genders, but since we are dealing with a specific topic here, I wouldn't want to dwell any deeper towards different aspect.


I am going by my own experiences and what I have seen happen to my cousins!

Be it boys or girls, all got the reprimand as and when their parents perceived them to cross the line of decent behaviour (or in other words, they thought we were crossing line of LAJJA and treading on ASHLEEL path)!
Ermm I really do not want to go in circles cuz that is all you have been doing even after repeated explanation of the objection we have. So either you move ahead of those words and look at the deeper layers and it's rippling effect on society or there isn't much to discuss anymore.


Thanks for your input.


Yeah, that  is so true!

There isn't much to discuss anymore really!
Clap


-Cruiser- IF-Sizzlerz
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Joined: 23 November 2011
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Posted: 12 November 2012 at 10:53pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by -Chandramukhi-

Originally posted by cruiser51



Oh Not at all!...This same discussion was on another thread and there were so many females who have agreed with my take on Lajja-Ashleelta. Its just that they realise the futility of entering this thread where discussion, if I may call it one, is on one track...! Just because divinity, music_masti, sara, tere-mere, salmangirl...many others who I dont remember now, are not on this thread doesn't mean only 'There is discrimination and anyaay' line is right!

I can only click LIKE if I see a post not screaming of 'Females ke saath Ghore anyaay', coz I do not agree with that!

I gave examples. If I say I had freedom to return home by 9.30 PM and sister did not have, many female libbers would say HAAAYE!-ANYAAY!...Thats not the case! Stakes are different and obviously, better safe then sorry!



@Bold: Very judgmental of you.

I got nothing more to say to you.


OK, ji...cheers!Smile
-Cruiser- IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 12 November 2012 at 10:56pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by ranjanruna

@Cruiser you r just avoiding to get the answer. Moving even comaparing some discussion to some woman lib ,professional etc even with out ur or my input this thread moves smoothly without worrying about 150 pages with heavy intellectually input. I gave the example of honour killing as it contains the lajya asleela for woman that decide by other by hoping u can relate as it is near to ur society but alas u consider watching some magazine etc. There is nothing wrong to dicuss a regressive view of Sidhu that reflect from society in the form of sidhu instead discussing what sidhu eat how play etc. Infact i respect the brilliant rational views of many in this thread. Appreciate their effort instead pondering on some modi and comparing the issue with mamata Nano. By the way comeout from this I, ME, MY EXAMPLE .


You choose a post made to someone else to come up with a response instead of one that I made in response to you! Pretty interesting!

I assume you missed it...


Problem with your questions is they are as vague as any that can be!

You want to generalize on basis of specifics!

Dragging of honour killing in this debate is irrelevant as it is not an issue that is relevant to any of the posters in this thread (except for a disturbing concern that it happens in their country in some specific cultures and regions).

OK, let me break it...for me India, Bharat, Hindustan, Bharat  Varsha etc. are different countries that have different issues for their people!

India is of Upper and middle class elites,(members like you, me and all others who have registered their presence on thread),--- whose issues and life style is very different ----------mostly, INDIANS and may be some similar fellow friends from Pakistan could be there...(call it people trying to discuss issues that affect and agitate them.

Bharat belongs to a vast majority that has little to do with Shining Indians except that they too graduate in their regional languages and look in awe at their swanky English speaking fellows who do all kinds of jobs like IT related-Call Centers...I can go on to define Bharat Vasrsha chaps as conservative RSS-Bajrang Dal for whom Valentines Day celebration is sacrilege just as a mini skirt wearing girl is a s**t...Hindustan only because its an Urdu word, I can use to explain issues of Muslim bretherns in Old Delhi, Lucknow, Hyderabad, some of them even grappling with the idea of whether to educate their daughters at all or not!

There are millions of slum dwellers and rag pickers in India who do not even know their country's name is India! Their issues are as different from yours and mine as are food habits of a hard core non-vegetarian Punjabi from a pure Gujarati Veggie!

So rather than jumping from one goal post to other, better is to stick to one issue on hand. The people who indulge in honour killing have NOTHING in common with you, me or any poster here on this thread, so I won't waste any breath on them except for labelling them as idiots belonging to a different age and culture!

Here simple statement is,"Lajja Naari ka sabse bada aabhooshan hai! Jis mein Lajja naheen, jo ashleel hai, use guidance ki zaroorat hai!"

Sidhu said Jis aurat mein because he was speaking to a woman...thats a political slip of language at the most, nothing sinister about it! And Sidhu comes from North India where its a way of speaking!...Had Sidhu said JIS INSAAN MEIN LAJJA naheen, Ashleelta hai, Koi discussion hi naheen hota! Its as simple as that!

My  mother also did call me an ASHLEEL fellow indulging in Ashleelta all because she discovered a Playboy in my bag!...She too screamed Shame on you and a lot more! No big deal!
......In North Indian belt--frequently sons and daughters get chided in exactly these words and phrases!Tongue


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-Chandramukhi- IF-Sizzlerz

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Posted: 12 November 2012 at 11:17pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by -Chandramukhi-

My specific question is...IN YOUR FAMILIES...(I am asking all posters here), is there / was there a case where Son/s spoke loudly, rudely/ abused and parents clapped away or looked the other way where as they went wild with rage each time the girls spoke loudly or rudely)?Shocked We have already admitted that parents will instil modesty in their children regardless of the gender. But is that the issue on hand here. No. Problem is many girls get criticized for being girls who should be Lajjasheel and modest. Again have you ever heard a statement that "Asheelta is a dhabba to manhood" I don't think so cuz that isn't a stereotype. But girls do get their share of lecture with the discussed stereotypical statement.


One last take...as I earlier said its merely splitting of hair over words and their usage!

Once we both agree parents chide both girls as well as boys equally when they perceive them to be crossing lines of modesty / decency / lajja / good manners, then whats the great fuss about exactly and specifically demanding,"But parents do not tell sons that ashleelta is dhabba on manhood?"Shocked

Equivalent stuff is,
"Beta tune woh kaam kiya hai ki aaj humaari naak kat gayi hai...Khaandaan ka naam mitti mein mila diya tune...kya kya sapne dekhe thhe, kya din dikhaaya hai tune humein aaj...Teri Maa (mar gayi hai)...ki aatma khoon ke aansoo ro rahi hogi aaj"Cry

Is the issue with usage of phrases / words , ya kaheen bahut bada zulm ho raha hai ladkiyon ke saath? (restricted to your and my families...don't quote examples of Sampat's village of which all of us only know from articles and TV clips...)!



Edited by cruiser51 - 12 November 2012 at 11:32pm

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ChillHum

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Posted: 12 November 2012 at 11:34pm | IP Logged
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Posted: 12 November 2012 at 11:52pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by -Chandramukhi-

Originally posted by cruiser51



One last take...as I earlier said its merely splitting of hair over words and their usage!

Once we both agree parents chide both girls as well as boys equally when they perceive them to be crossing lines of modesty / decency / lajja / good manners, then whats the great fuss about exactly and specifically demanding,"But parents do not tell sons that ashleelta is dhabba on manhood?"Shocked

Equivalent stuff is,
"Beta tune woh kaam kiya hai ki aaj humaari naak kat gayi hai...Khaandaan ka naam mitti mein mila diya tune...kya kya sapne dekhe thhe, kya din dikhaaya hai tune humein aaj...Teri Maa (mar gayi hai)...ki aatma khoon ke aansoo ro rahi hogi aaj"Smile

Is the issue with usage of phrases / words , ya kaheen bahut bada zulm ho raha hai ladkiyon ke saath? (restricted to your and my families...don't quote examples of Sampat's village of which all of us only know from articles and TV clips...)!



Oh Lord and here I thought we were done.

Cruiser ji, it isn't about the technicalities. It is about the perception of woman and how they should act or talk. Such stereotypes for girls have many issues where girls do not have the courage or guts to raise their voice because they are taught to be the so called Ideal woman who don't shout or raise their voice. Domestic abuse is one of the layers of this perception and why some women take forever to stand up against such abuse. There might be other reasons and it might depend from case to case. But I do not see them mutually exclusive. If you really think about the perception of a woman in a society and how they are drilled time and again with such stereotypical statements, I am sure you will relate to many of us here on the thread.

I have personally seen in my family and friends how girls are taunted by their in laws for raising their voice for the right reasons. Anyways, I don't wanna go in details, but there are many issues on hand because of such "lady like" perception of society especially in Indian/Desi families. You can deny or negate all you want, but for me they are all interlinked.


There is one very logical reason why parents get extra paranoid (in many cases), when their daughter gets hyper, says something rudely-crudely, shrieks or does something beyond the accepted norms within the family!

It is because parents know ONE DAY, their beloved daughter would be leaving their home and making her life with some one else, somewhere else. Especially because in India lots of grls after marriage have to live with in-laws, somewhere at the back of their minds, a thought is always there that if our daughter is shaant svabhaav- cool and patient kinds, she will have little trouble in adjusting quickly and building a happy home together with her husband!...Remember, a girl, who has lived some 25 years in a set environment, suddenly has to go and live with 4-5, at times more people who in turn have been living their lives in may be, slightly different manner! Its obviously easier for one person to adapt a bit rather than 5-6 adapting to one's peculiarities...hence the extra concern of parents!

Its not uncommon to see mothers insisting that their daughters are good in cooking, are familiar with prayer-festival rituals etc.

Shallow look would again indicate there is discrimination. But objectively if you look at it, its nothing but care and concern of parents that their daughter never faces difficulties of any kind!


*Now as more and more couples have started splitting from joint families, you can already see a change in the way parents  that we will make. By the time our kids grow up, almost surely, the culture would be of girls and boys choosing each other and settling down together, not really in joint families. Concerns we will face as parents would be radically different from concerns that our parents faced...Naturally, we won't be speaking same language and phrases that our parents had to because of their various compulsions and norms of society!

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