Lajja = Modesty = Women ?? - Page 39

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Le sigh. I'm sorry folks for dragging this further.

 

@Cruiser

 

You still don't get it at all.

 

First and foremost, screw Siddhu, screw Sapna, screw Big Boss, screw reality television, they be damned and I couldn't care less. The discussion may have started over an altercation between Siddhu and Sapna on Big Boss. But other than that they are all irrelevant to the central issue on hand here.  So let's just toss them aside. The real issue is being trivialized by people trying to defend/trash irrelevant celebrities.

 

The central issue raised by Chandramukhi is the unfairness of gender stereotypes, specifically gender stereotypes related to women.

 

Secondly, this definitely is not about specific words. I don't give a damn if chastizements are in shudh Hindi or flawless Klingon. One could be speaking Greek for I could care. And which rational human could take modesty, humility, politeness, manners to be a bad thing. It is not the words, but the context, intent and content.

 

Two black friends meet at the bar and fist pump each other saying "What up Nigger?"

A white shopkeeper does not want black people in his store and says  "Nigger Keep Out!"

 

The exact same words can have radically different meanings depending on who says it, on which situation, how and why. Focusing on just words, while ignoring everything else makes the words themselves lose meaning. The friends are not being racist to each other and a shopkeeper is not greeting his buddy. Similarly telling a woman "lajja aurat ka gehna hai" does not always have the same meaning as chiding a man "kya tujhme lajja nahin hai?".

 

So let us evaluate situations focusing on context and intent.

 

A woman is upset and retaliates by arguing in a loud impolite and crude manner. The woman is chided and criticized for reacting in such a way. She is told things like "That was unladylike to be impolite" "Modesty is a woman's ornament" "A lady shouldn't behave so crudely".

 

A man is upset and retaliates by arguing in a loud impolite and crude manner. The man is chided and criticized for reacting in such a way. He is told things like "That was impolite" "You should have been more modest" "You should have not been so crude".

 

Both situations use words like impolite, modest and crude. However, the context and intent of those words is different. The man is simply criticized for misbehavior, but for the woman her gender is brought into play. That is an unfair gender stereotype. The fact is we are all humans. All humans have different tolerance levels and different reactions to being upset. These things are not dictated by gender but by temperament and personality. Many men are very polite and restrained. They rarely raise their voice or get mad. Many women are loud and irritable. They frequently get angry, lose their tempers and raise their voice. But it is desirable for all people to try and be restrained. Not just women or men. Women and men who lose their tempers, get loud and crude ' should be criticized for misbehavior and not around gender.

 

Let us look at gender stereotypes about men

 

A man is hurt by things said in an argument and breaks down into tears. He is told things like "Be a man" "Boys don't cry" "Why are you crying like a woman"

 

A woman is hurt by things said in an argument and breaks down into tears. She is told things like "Be strong" "Please don't cry!" "Why are you crying over someone stupid"

 

Both situations are trying to pass on the message of stop crying or there is no reason to cry. However, the context and intent of the words are different. The woman is simply being consoled not to cry, but for the man his gender is brought into play. That is also an unfair gender stereotype. Emotions and sensitivity are not dictated by gender. Many women can be tough and resilient. They will rarely cry or show emotions. Many men are sensitive with fragile egos. They get hurt easily and show their feelings. Neither is more or less of a man/woman for how they process their feelings. They should be consoled/criticized based on the situation and not their gender.

 

There is a serious problem if we cannot accept the fact that statements like "Modesty is a woman's ornament" or "Boys don't cry" are a gender stereotype that should be discouraged. We probably don't know if they would say the exact same thing to the opposite gender. However, we  still ought to stand up and say "This is not about gender, don't bring up gender" because gender is indeed unfairly brought up in these statements. And just because someone made one sexist or misogynist or politically incorrect statement does not make them a bad person or villain. It happens. Each and everyone of us does it sometime or another. Society has conditioned us in a way that we often blurt out many racist, misogynist, xenophobic, homophobic and other forms of inappropriate statements in normal flow of conversations.  Sometimes we don't even know there is a problem with what we said. But we shouldn't ignore the problem or defend the problem because that's the way it is. The ethical thing to do is pointing out the problems and trying to change things because society a as a whole will be better for it.

R_T_H Ji,

The above post of yours, without any hesitation, I would rate as the Post of This Thread! 👏

I get everything that you say, appreciate your line of reasoning and the point you are making!😊😊

I do have my own takes on quite a few things, but for the time being, I would prefer to take a back seat and enjoy various takes on this topic! At this point, nothing much to add from my side...😊

@ return_to_hades simply awesome post👏. Completely agree with @ Cruiserji. Very well written and elaborated with appropriate instances.
Edited by saloni111 - 11 years ago

Edited by znursingh - 11 years ago

Thanks Cruiser, Saloni and Znur.

 

@Znur – Haha! That is an interesting take on my ID. I've never had someone tell me that about my ID.

 

The idea behind my ID is really dorky. It is based on the Greek myth of Hades and Persephone. Persephone has to "return to Hades" for six months every winter. "Return to Hades" is essential to the cycle of seasons and life.

 

Although telling people to "Go to Hell" seems a lot more fun. 😆

Lo...that Big Boss's stupid voice for Fish is asking Rajeev to,"BE A MAN!!...MARD BAN"!!!!!🤣

Chalo yaar...koi ek naya thread khol hi do! It won't reach 3 pages though-------------------

As Shri Dara Singh Ji used to say,''JAI SHRI RAM---MARD KO DARD NAHEEN HOTA!"😆


Edited by cruiser51 - 11 years ago

RTH,

Being a scientist myself I can understand where Akash is comming from. Our genetic footprint goes beyond the homo sepians. The males and female genetic traits had been different since the evolution had created from asexul being to sexual being. The equality of sexes is a part of human society as we have brains which has portions of reasoning and understanding and is constantly evolving in that direction. Scientists have proved beyond doubt that even if a person is brought up in total isolation certain traits it would develop depending the sex of the person and that is because of the genetic footprints we have of millions of years of evolution.

Originally posted by: akash08

RTH,

Not sure if you have, if not please pick a copy of the book "Men are from MARS, Women are from Venus".

Men and women definitely react differently to same circumstance - there are thousands of examples in this book. People who do not accept this are living in a word of denial.

Science has repeatedly proved that the brain and hormone composition of two genders are different and these are what dictate how we react to a situation. Denying science by playing cards of gender equality is a pure crap!! You write thousand lines of what you think, no supporting evidence by science or study - you (or me) believing in a fact does not prove anything!!

Let us bring gender equality in picture where it is really required - that is for women empowerment, to stop women exploitation and for equal rights of women. Just trying to prove there is no difference between a man and woman is the worst abuse of gender equality - only comparable to the abuse of atomic energy in making atom bombs!!

Akash I don't think RTH or anyone is trying to prove that there isn't any difference between a man and a woman. She, I and even others have admitted time and again that physical characteristics of both genders will stay the same and get dictated depending on the sex and the driven hormones.

Since we are dealing with human traits like modesty here, it would be great if you want to provide some scientific proof to back up your claim. But you can't come to a conclusion that questioning against stereotypes = trying to prove that both genders are same because it isn't the case.
Edited by -Chandramukhi- - 11 years ago

@Akash

 

I have never denied the biological differences between the genders. Of course there are some things men can do women won't be able to and vice versa. There are some behavioral differences as well due to the levels of various hormones. I am not and nor will I ever attempt to prove that men and women are equal in all aspects. My arguments are more about social justice – the simple principle of liberty and equality for all humans irrespective of race, religion, gender, nationality, caste, creed etc. etc.

 

The behavioral differences in men and women and societal gender stereotypes fall under the nature vs. nurture conundrum. A lot of behavioral differences are not because biology dictates different behavior but because society has ingrained different behavior. Even though written by a PhD. "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" is more of a pop culture, dating book. There are many critical works and papers published that critique some of his stereotypes.

 

Gender roles and gender socialization varies from culture to culture.  In the Polynesian societies studied by Margaret Mead gender roles in contemporary society were reversed.  Similar tribes have been found in Africa and South America. If you look at ancient mythic Gods – Athena and Artemis are portrayed as aggressive, calculative, leadership oriented, dominating, warrior like, traits which are usually associated with men while Apollo and Eros are portrayed as soft, playful, vain, romantic, subdued, beautiful, traits which are usually associated with women.

 

Even in modern times the roles for men and women vary. Latin women and African American women are known to be very loud and aggressive. They often scream and yell a lot. Using expletives or getting crude when they get into fights is not uncommon for them. Similarly many Latin and European men are soft and emotional. It is not uncommon for them to be expressive in their emotions and even cry. In European drama and literature it is not uncommon for men to cry and lament flamboyantly over broken hearts, betrayals, lost friendships etc. These go to show that gender stereotypes are not dictated purely by biology, but a majority of it is actually the roles and socialization that is ingrained by society. It seems to defy logic not because it actually does, but because throughout our lives we have been ingrained with certain views on boys and girls.

 

Also think about it – Can you fly the argument? Races are not equal, they have clear genetic and behavioral differences. They look different and act different. Trying to treat colored people and white people equally is absurd, ridiculous and in defiance of how nature intended us to be.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

@Akash

I have never denied the biological differences between the genders. Of course there are some things men can do women won't be able to and vice versa. There are some behavioral differences as well due to the levels of various hormones. I am not and nor will I ever attempt to prove that men and women are equal in all aspects. My arguments are more about social justice ' the simple principle of liberty and equality for all humans irrespective of race, religion, gender, nationality, caste, creed etc. etc.

 

The behavioral differences in men and women and societal gender stereotypes fall under the nature vs. nurture conundrum. A lot of behavioral differences are not because biology dictates different behavior but because society has ingrained different behavior. Even though written by a PhD. "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" is more of a pop culture, dating book. There are many critical works and papers published that critique some of his stereotypes.

 

Gender roles and gender socialization varies from culture to culture.  In the Polynesian societies studied by Margaret Mead gender roles in contemporary society were reversed.  Similar tribes have been found in Africa and South America. If you look at ancient mythic Gods ' Athena and Artemis are portrayed as aggressive, calculative, leadership oriented, dominating, warrior like, traits which are usually associated with men while Apollo and Eros are portrayed as soft, playful, vain, romantic, subdued, beautiful, traits which are usually associated with women.

 

Even in modern times the roles for men and women vary. Latin women and African American women are known to be very loud and aggressive. They often scream and yell a lot. Using expletives or getting crude when they get into fights is not uncommon for them. Similarly many Latin and European men are soft and emotional. It is not uncommon for them to be expressive in their emotions and even cry. In European drama and literature it is not uncommon for men to cry and lament flamboyantly over broken hearts, betrayals, lost friendships etc. These go to show that gender stereotypes are not dictated purely by biology, but a majority of it is actually the roles and socialization that is ingrained by society. It seems to defy logic not because it actually does, but because throughout our lives we have been ingrained with certain views on boys and girls.

 

Also think about it ' Can you fly the argument? Races are not equal, they have clear genetic and behavioral differences. They look different and act different. Trying to treat colored people and white people equally is absurd, ridiculous and in defiance of how nature intended us to be.

Bang on RTH especially the bold points. I loved how you articulated your thoughts with the use of varied examples from history and culture.

P.S: **Fan Alert** 😳
Edited by -Chandramukhi- - 11 years ago