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did India move away from Gandhism? (Page 7)

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Pratamesh

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Pratamesh

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Posted: 14 October 2012 at 12:22pm | IP Logged
@Polki_Zofi I had no intension to say this bt since u mentioned abt missionaries i would like to tell you Goa a state in india ruled by portoguese for abt 450 year's until 1961 if you see the work of missionaries in those early days they used to do conversions,since entire population in Goa was hindu bt over period since neither the neighbouring states had christain community there was mass conversion and now the christain community here have their hindu decedents u wont find this on by net surfing or just visiting n looking at people.
India may have lots of problem bt we are improving every day.if gandhi would be ther india would have failed to exist,coz pakistan would have overun india during 1947 war,hope u would know this.

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Posted: 14 October 2012 at 12:33pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Polki_Zofi

Very shocked to see your reaction. If display of overflowing emotion can be seen anywhere, it was your post. Sorry but it is true enough. I know it is India forums, but truth is as it is. You can ofcourse deny.

No words. Its okay for you to be highhanded and emotional and act all big sisterly but not okay for us to refute that?

You can never get an idea about a country through some students. Neither did I think I knew India when I met some Indian students at my university in Lodz. It was only after I came to India that I felt I came to know a little.

Who said I only got it from students? I said I also got it from students. And who said I haven't been to Poland? 

I am related to India through my marriage and my son. I visited my in laws there. You feel the little begging children at cold nights is a figment of my imagination? You can think so, but I know what I saw. I also saw the indifference of other Indians who were enjoying around them.

Funny you choose to see the little begging children but not the people who are working their ass off to help them. You see indifferent people but not those who save from their pocket money to do charity work and donate to charities. You see what you want to see, but thats not the gospel truth. There are many faces to truth. You might not see them, doesn't make them any less true.

All the modern inventions of this world are done either by Europeans or people with a European background (or Russian, if they would consider themselves non European). Higgs-Boson invention is good, congratulations, but there should be more. Simple. More such names that people wish to follow or idolize in this world. I am not from science faculty, but I also know names like Newton, Einstein, Koppernik etc. Electricity, TV, Radio, washing machine or particles, everything you name it. I am not trying to demean India, but I just think that India gave the world Gandhi and such philosophy more than the material inventions. You obviously misunderstood. 

Newton lived in 1600s, Kopernicus 1400s, They are modern according to you? 
India gave the world zero in 1500BC. So its not modern, please tell me why it is still used? Fundamental findings have no time or age.

people who wish to follow and idolize scientists and businessmen have enough to pick and choose from in India. As i said before, just because you donot know does not mean they are not there.  And an average man does not dwell much on Newton or Einstein either.
You might not try to demean India as you say, but your posts say something different, specially when you keep on harping over and again even after several people successfully refuted you. I am into this debate way later from page5. Different people already debated about it before for 4 pages before I entered.
I respect  your admiration for Gandhi. But you have to understand, whatever you find admirable might not be same for me or to another person and you do not get to decide why not. Its people's choice. And Also grass is greener on the other side. Even marxism is wonderful in theory, we all know the contraints of its practical application.
 I did not misunderstand your admiration. What baffles me is why do you keep shoving your admiration and love for Gandhi's principles down our throat without even considering for ground realities or what we might decide to be better.. And when people  refute you, you choose not totally ignore their points.
Gandhi is not the best thing India imported, trust me. it maybe to you, but it is not to much more number of people. Saying that over and over will not make it any different.



You can get back at me with anger, but anger is sign of helplessness Smile. Dont be like that as I am not attacking you. Germany and its universities cannot explain you a European world, its much more diverse and big.

Had I been angry I would have called you names and written some nasty stuff. Just because someone is refuting you logically does not mean they are angry. But if it suits you, I am angry.BTW, rightful anger is not a sign of helplessness. It is a sign of reaching the upper limit for tolerating bullshit, not that I am angry. Just saying.LOL

How do you know my experience is in Germany and its Universities only?LOLWink. I said I studied and live here now. But I might have been to other parts of europe, lived there for sometime. YOu seem awfully fixated at tying me down with Germany only . This is the second time you mention in this post.


Whole Europe compared to whole India or China is much more rich and self sufficient. We are much more developed and the wealth distribution is better than China and India put together. Please remember that, and this is the reason you came to Europe to study and will possibly try to live too (I welcome it).

Offcourse, no one is denying it. However maybe all that glitters is not Gold? Recent bout of financial crisis and demands of bailout, angry protests in france, and spain and Italy do seem a bit contradictory about the wealth distribution.But whatever makes you happy.
 Lots of people btw come for exchange studies and go back after living few yrs. Lots of people live a yr and go back too. As to why I came to study? Why don't you keep guessing?LOL

EU is fast becoming the most powerful uniting force. Europe is rising once again, more united and powerful. This recent economic problem we face brings us closer to that goal. Once we solve it, we are stronger. We will solve it and Europe and Christianity will reign supreme, as always.

Really, seems we follow different news then. EU was almost at the verge of breaking down recently. There were talks of dissolution of euro because it became so difficult during may-june.
Europe can reign supreme. no problem with that. There is a bit of a problem with America though, doubt it will decide to concede its number one position so easily.LOL

Please dont say wrong things about missionaries. Christian missionaries were selfless. One such was Matka Teresa as she gave up all for helpless Indian children. Have some conscience please.

Errm, pardon me for being rude last time. YOu just sounded  very typical of those people, who were determined to show us the light.  YOu know those who didn't think twice before killing those poor natives, oppress them? If you did not mean it any way, then I am sorry for being rude unnecessarily.

 Please stop worrying about my conscience. Its fine the way it is. You can spend that time thinking about yours if you want to.




I did not bring Bose in this topic, it was totally on Gandhi. Someone else did and then after I checked, he tried to come to a deal with adolf hitler, and so he cannot be respect by any righteous person in this world.

Really? Why don't you read his full life in wikipidea before this judgement. Apparantly Gandhi got along quite well with Mussolini. What should a self righteous person infer from that ?


 If you live in Europe you should know this. If you dont know this then it is very sad and I am worried. Mr Bose even married an Austrian in hiding, not open. So he did not get respect from hitler either. 

I knew all of it, when I was in India. we read history, of all it, we don't get to choose what I like or not.
Are you worried for me? Thanks, its always nice to have people who care about you.
I thought, HITLER was a megalomaniac, a tyrant, a mass murderer and a loser. Why exactly is getting respect from him that a big deal? We just agreed he was loser of highest order did we not?

 Oh wait, HITLER become important when it fits our point and the hated person ,  surprise surprise ,again, when it fits our point. 



What I wrote about Indian national army is written many places. It was after all a militia. If you did not want him discussed, you could have not mention him. If you mention him you must have the heart to listen something more about it. Why such a reaction when something you dont like comes up?

The INA has a controvertial  history. Both positive and negative.  If you can discard and dismiss all the positive and only focus on its being negative, I reserve equal right for reaction and focussing only on its positive. In a sane debate, the other side does not dismiss and discard the points raised by one side.
 The INA's marching song, is in use as the Regimental quickmarch of the Indian Army as well as its Para Regiments. You would think that the Indian Army would not bother about such a  rogue militia troupe. Maybe then it has some validity?


Partition of India was not brought up by me, it was brought up by someone else. Someone compared it with second world war's fallen. So there was to be another mention, why you did not expect this? 

Whoever mentioned did, did definitely not say these following lines, which you said:

Originally posted by Polki_Zofi

Partition was a choice of Indians, being invaded and then killed by German NAZI forces was not a choice Poland made or any other poor nation in Europe. So it is not comparable.


It was misinformed and cruel and judgemental.

And I don't know what research you did, a plain wikipidea search says totally different info.

So you are saying Hitler was the German leader and hence his massacre is also the massacre inflicted by  ALL  the germans?


because you seem to say the same thing about India and partition. Because the leader represent the people. And it was our choice to die like butchered cattle.

I have read enough about the world war2, and HItler's activities and I did not seem to ever condone it or support it.

If I am talking about HItler's massacre to an european, so are  you  talking to partition of India to an Indian.

 If my homework seems shaky, so does yours.

I told you, if you cannot respect my pain and my personal feelings then maybe we should not revisit the topic. But you had to.

You keep harping on the choice of nation. Choice of nation and people .

It was not the choice of nation or the people. It was a choice of handful of greedy and egositic people to have power and dominion.
It was as much choice of the people as that was of an average german in deciding what that megalomaniac does.

So please tell me, why is it losing your family member to the massacre so much more important than the pain of partition and losing family there?


Why is one death more important than other?



If you keep saying your massacre is bigger than mine, I will keep saying no. I would say both are equally revolting. 



What makes you think your pain is more important than mine?


What then makes you any different from the person you hate so much?
 You don't have the power and resources of that person, thats it.

Today your pain is more important, tomorrow your skin color, day after tomorrow your eye color, that day after your race: Then you become supreme leader of a improved race and others must be eliminated.  Sounds familiarWink?



You have wrong idea about me and my thought on Indians. I just feel if India followed Gandhi, they would be on better track. I am curious about it. 

After reading 6 pages of your thought, I have the right idea. You might think I have wrong idea, but the more you keep on acting high handed, the surer I am.

For the record, India follows Gandhism. Some of the key principles of our constitution is based on his ideals. It was already explained early on in the debate. you either did not read it,or chose to ignore it.
But modern India has an issue being treated as a doormat. And modern world, except for a  few seem to be okay with it. 



The failure in sport and science or economy is not because India is huge. There are other huge countries too, as China and Russia. They also suffered, sometimes much more than India. Australia is huge, so is USA. Poland is not a small country, but compared to India, our wealth is more even and infrastructure better. Show me a street urchin who is uncared in Poland, even in village. I dont demean India by this, just highlighting how moving away from Gandhi made India broken and now in great corruption and chaos. No one else helped India as much. Cricket and a chess champion for a nation like India is never enough. Chess is good, cricket is a British game unknown in most of Europe or other parts of the world. Olympic is the prime stage of human capabilities and national image. I wished India won more.

India's problems are same with brazil, and some african nations and yes even China. There was no Gandhi for them. gandhi is not a one stop short cut solution to complex problems like economy, industrialisation, banking etc.  Real problems need real solution.

India was always corrupt and chaotic. Thats how the British made inways in the first place. But thats Indian history. You might not be interested. Gandhi did not wave a magic wand and solved our problem. hell, these problems were there even then Gandhi was alive. What are you talking about?

national image just don't depend on olympics madam. There are a lot many things. We are all hoping India will win more.MAybe it will, in another 10-20 yrs.




Indias national economy can be stronger than Malaysia, but quality of life is not better than little Moldova even. There is nothing to be shy, as I also wish India to be better. My son is half India, why I will hate India.

Hmm, again, what do you mean by quality of life? Some of the world's richest people are Indians you know, I am sure their quality of life is at par with counterparts.

You might say social disparitiy. But its a big problem almost everywhere, not just India.

You might not hate India, but you do come off a bit high handed at times.

I have not much good English. I learn it still, and better with Russian and Polish. So dont take me wrong on language if you did.


I don't really nitpick on language, because we are all speaking in different language. Its commendable the way you write english. ClapClap
I did not take you wrong on your language, your intentions came out quite clear on that. Maybe if you did not wish to say it that way, you might try to change your approach? Right now you sound condescending and high handed and I am afraid this apology might not be enough.

Bless you, 
Thank You. Its always nice to receive blessing.Embarrassed


I hope you can understand missionaries better

You see i studied for some time in convent. I have seen missionaries from inside, which means the bad of it and the good of it. It maybe all good to you, but some things are not good to other people.Why don't you accept people have different opinion and we call it a day there?


 and the light of Christ may reach you. Amen.

And the light of Vishnu may reach you . Jai Shree Vishnu.LOL





I think I am done here. You don't seem to realise what I have to say and I don't seem to see your  thoughts either. So instead of going back and forth, lets call it a day, shall we?


Edited by tannipartner - 14 October 2012 at 1:56pm

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Posted: 14 October 2012 at 1:41pm | IP Logged
With Due Respect To Gandhi Ji ,
He was Blessing In Disguise !

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Pratamesh

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Posted: 14 October 2012 at 8:00pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Polki_Zofi


Someone in this topic mentioned that India and Pakistan and Bangladesh all wanted to separate. I think she was King Anu. As she is from Pakistan, she feel it is a separate entity and they always wanted to separate.  So it is the choice of you and your people.


 
I want to make two corrections. lol.
 
1) I do not know much about Poland/51.4273 N, 20.1726 E/Eastern Europe/Europe/Western Hemisphere/Eastern part of western hemisphere/Russia/Above Africa/Below North Pole/West of middle east and east of pacific ocean region but from where I am i.e. South Asia/Indian Subcontinent, a King (aka baadshah/raja in local languages) is referred to as following
 
a.  A male sovereign or monarch; a man who holds by life tenure, and usually by hereditary right, the chief authority over a country and people.

b. A person or thing regarded as the finest or most important in its sphere or group.
 
Therefore the appropriate words to use for/refer to such a person are He, His (preferably His Highness), and him and not she and her.
 
2) Pakistan, India and Bangladesh never wanted anything separate as there was no Pakistan, India and Bangladesh before parition. There was an area under British control which was referred to as British India and it was collection of provinces and princely states. It was never a country. It was people of certain regions/provinces who wanted a separate state.
 
Thanks!
 
King Anu


Edited by King-Anu - 14 October 2012 at 8:26pm

Pratamesh

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Posted: 14 October 2012 at 9:49pm | IP Logged
@Polki_Zofi The wealth from india may not have helped the EU bt it did hamper indian development after independence.Europe is going through recession and i hope it would come out of it that would be better for India. 1)I talked about GDP coz thats what makes people know better that we are developing,people choose what the want to See,as far as statistics go india is way better in economics may be not humanitarian grounds or social for that matter. 2)I guess u may not be knowing whats the importance of bombs and tanks bt ur europe realised it way before non-violence was never their means and just colonization was their aim may it be portugal,france,spain or britian,may be tanks dnt change life of people but European people dont have to face terrorist attacks every other day eitherwhy do european countries posses ballistic missile?? I dnt see any of their neither hostile i would be interested to hear on this about india possessing weapons and not following non-violence u have no Idea about india than post independence india didnt have any of its own army that was suggested by nehru bt after being attacked in 1947 v did realise gandhi was insane and v needed an army. 3)I dnt know much abt europe history bt bose as u said was thought to be inferior by hitler how come than bose told hitler to bomb UK,u seem to have a grudge against bose anyways.Bose can get no respect from european u said coz he sided Hitler and japan,with same logic european union sided america so next time i guess terrorist may strike europe instead of USA. 4)U said my perception is flawed towards gandhi,looks to me as though i m talking to someone who has read book published by congress party on gandhi,few days back EU recieved noble peace prize bt never did gandhi if he is so much loved by ur European union and USA.may be u would like to research and get to me on that or EU had that to gandhi's family for his teachings. 5)Oh my god are u kidding bose build armed,violent,blood thristy army,bose was a patriot he didnt kill innocent people like the Europeans did during colonization,he was in no way responsible for what hitler did,he just asked for hitler's help to overthrow british rule and that wasnt wrong in any which way u see it abt supporting gandhi its upto U I m no one to say anythng abt itsince you are nt from india you wont understand why bose is a true hero,gandhi forced bose to take his way coz bose wanted freedow at earliest so the time he won the president election he would have given british ultimatum to free india bt gandhi didnt let it happen he forced bose to resign c how smartly gandhi didnt allow his influence to go away pathetic person. 6)Finally the last part what do u mean by u think that british left coz they couldnt do what they had come for that is trade??U hav no idea india,indian people and indian history except for gandhi u seem to know nothingits sad what u said up ther india was colonized british ruled us and so did other european countries they didnt came to trade here my dear. Gandhi stopped the british??if i start up his character sketch it would be very bad what he did and how he ruined better leave thatOn top of all bose had asked people to join the army it was clear that they would die fighting,bt gandhi ditched people he asked them nt to fight and be non-violent and when they were being butchered he didnt do anythng being their leader other than being non-violent spectator.there is a huge difference when u die by urself and when u trust someone but he leaves u ditched to be killed. And btw it wasnt that gandhi requested british and they felt they knew that they were weak after WW2 and the religious sentiments were growing had they waited they knew they would be cut to pieces and thats why the run away in haste from india,dividing it ruining it.

Edited by Pratamesh - 14 October 2012 at 9:59pm

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Posted: 14 October 2012 at 11:46pm | IP Logged
^^ don't bother dude, debate means exchange of iras and listening to opp side, we r debating with a wall.
Also half boiled knowledge of some random person won't really change the fact about bose.
I can assure you though, in real world people who think like this are hardly noticeable.

Edited by tannipartner - 15 October 2012 at 12:02am

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Posted: 14 October 2012 at 11:59pm | IP Logged
.
Originally posted by king anu

It was people of certain regions/provinces who wanted a separate state.[/DIV]

King Anu



Quite a bit of your info is correct except this line. Don't know which book text, essay or political propaganda you lifted this line from, but bengal province was partitioned along with Punjab. Donno about Punjab but if u say that anywhere in modern West bengal or Bangladesh u will be torn apart before you finish this sentence. And people irrespective of religion will come together to tear you apart.
I may hav eee doubt about your other info but it is correct to some extent. The last line however is most empathetically not..

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Posted: 15 October 2012 at 12:20am | IP Logged
Are you guys still trying to have a reasonable exchange/debate with Polki_Zofi?

I came into this thread making fairly comprehensive posts trying to cover a lot of material that is clearly over her head (despite her superior European intellect!). This person is obviously either flaming or plainly racist. She has (quite boringly and repetitively) claimed in all her posts that Europeans are superior, that colonial rule and imperialism were morally justified, and that all that she cares to learn about India is that she saw beggars. Her response to complex arguments about why Gandhi isn't the be-all of Indian anti-colonial struggle: we are Nazi sympathizers!

I have met a lot of ignorant white people in my life, and the most annoying are the ones that feel they have special permission to be racist because they are married to a South Asian person/person of colour. Polki_Zofi is one of them. As if that absolves them of any charges of actual racist behaviour.

I don't think that people like this are worth our time or energy. Anyone who comes into a place called "India Forums" and places the burden of explanations on us, and still doesn't comprehend or learn anything from our arguments deserves to be ignored.


Edited by --arti-- - 15 October 2012 at 12:23am

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