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did India move away from Gandhism? (Page 6)

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Ankithate

Goldie

Ankithate

Joined: 26 April 2012

Posts: 1114

Posted: 13 October 2012 at 2:53am | IP Logged
India not only known For Gandhi.
Yaa before May be it was the scene.
But nowadays nooo.
Outside world like india coz indians are hard working and intelligent not coz of mhatma Gandhi or some one.
No person can be bigger than country.
Ur statement is wrong that people outside see gandhi as face of india.
No..
Its just coz gandhi has a pic on indian notes.

Rest all is myth.
We are hard working so creadit goes to all us not gandhi.
And yaa full respect to gandhi jii.
But i guess u r not indian.
So
bahr se har cheez achi lagti hai ,
hum bhi baki countries ke bare mai kuch bhi bol skte h.
But anyways. Leave...


Fan of gandhi.
Me too.
But his ideas dont actually work in real life now.
Its a fiction nw..

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zorrro

Goldie

zorrro

Joined: 29 July 2008

Posts: 2250

Posted: 13 October 2012 at 11:04am | IP Logged
Originally posted by tannipartner

Mahatma Gandhi is still referred as Mahatma or Bapu by us, even when we are criticising him, so he is still revered. But he is human, so he has done a lot of mistakes, some of which he accepted in his lifetime only. So he is not above criticism. And other freedome fighters are equally  respected in India, their sacrifice, their contribution revered . You know it now, after 60 yrs simply because the world is a smaller place now with information at the tip of your finger.

Subhas Bose and HIter: Bose was simply looking for an ally to fight British. To that end, he did not conclude any deal with him even, they just had talks. So Why can he not be respected? The US dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan and were allies of British. 3 generations of Japanese suffered and still suffer from the aftereffects, I don't see any condemntion there.

The holocaust : It was horrifying . But India suffered  a huge and equally revolting  genocide during the Partition of India. Something which was largely fault of Gandhi as well. He gave in to petty politics and egoes of inept people like the Nehrus and Jinnah and sidelined strong leaders. So pardon us for not putting  him up on a pedestral and worshipping him day in and day out as you expected to be But we , exotic Indians, are still a lot considerate and sensible people and do not judge someone by half baked knowledge. 
Hence he still remains father of the nation and Mahatma, even when he had done his fair share of mistakes that altered lives of millions of people.

half baked knowledge is very dangerous.


Is Gandhi being compared to Hitler !!!!  Shocked Confused
Hitler was directly responsible for the holocaust whereas Gandhi always stood for non violence.
Everyone can make mistakes but to blame Gandhi for the mindless killings duing the partition is farfetched IMO. He did not ordertheir killings. Whenever law and order are compromised people's baser instincts gets an opportunity to express itself. It was easy to loot and rob people ad kill them. If they believed in non violence they would not have engaged in such cruelties.

LeadNitrate

Viewbie

LeadNitrate

Joined: 28 March 2007

Posts: 13564

Posted: 13 October 2012 at 12:55pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by zorrro

Originally posted by tannipartner



The holocaust : It was horrifying . But India suffered  a huge and equally revolting  genocide during the Partition of India. Something which was largely fault of Gandhi as well. He gave in to petty politics and egoes of inept people like the Nehrus and Jinnah and sidelined strong leaders. So pardon us for not putting  him up on a pedestral and worshipping him day in and day out as you expected to be But we , exotic Indians, are still a lot considerate and sensible people and do not judge someone by half baked knowledge. 
Hence he still remains father of the nation and Mahatma, even when he had done his fair share of mistakes that altered lives of millions of people.

half baked knowledge is very dangerous.


Is Gandhi being compared to Hitler !!!!  Shocked Confused
Hitler was directly responsible for the holocaust whereas Gandhi always stood for non violence.
Everyone can make mistakes but to blame Gandhi for the mindless killings duing the partition is farfetched IMO. He did not ordertheir killings. Whenever law and order are compromised people's baser instincts gets an opportunity to express itself. It was easy to loot and rob people ad kill them. If they believed in non violence they would not have engaged in such cruelties.


That would be you doing the comparison  then. I don't seem to mention it. Also it was alluded to the topic maker trying to point out killing jews and poles is a bigger crime than partition of India. 

People suffering and dying is same everywhere. You might think putting innocent people in gas chamber and killing them is more atrocious than putting innocent people through devastations of being uprooted, exposing them to brutal killing, mass murder, rape, forceful conversion : but I do not. 
As a child I was given to understand if you stand aside and let the crime happen, you are equally guilty as the perpetrator.


Gandhi might advocate non violence, but fact remains he was a position of power to influence people and he just stood by. If we are alluding him all the credits, he should receive the criticisms as well. And criticising does not mean comparing someone with some one else.

People's baser instinct always look for an opportunity to express itself, whether it is lawlessness or a megalomaniac edging them with eternal glory bullshit. To put one on higher up than other is simply incorrect.

But we are all entitled to our opinion. So you can have yours and I can have mine.
 




Edited by tannipartner - 13 October 2012 at 1:01pm

Polki_Zofi

Senior Member

Polki_Zofi

Joined: 18 October 2010

Posts: 289

Posted: 14 October 2012 at 4:19am | IP Logged
Partition was a choice of Indians, being invaded and then killed by German NAZI forces was not a choice Poland made or any other poor nation in Europe. So it is not comparable.

Your Bose met Hitler but it was Hitler who refused to deal with him as he considered bose inferior. Sorry but you must face it. I did not know about your bose but now that I studied a little, it is clear he was aimless and only raised a militia which achieved practically nothing. His alliance with adolf hitler is poor.

Someone live in Germany here thinks of Germans are representative of Europeans thinking the way they think? Germans are an economic center of Europe. They have more Indians, while we in Poland dont have.

Indians are hardworking like any other nation, I respect India for it. Yes you are hard working, but I wish you be better to your can get some success as a nation too. China is doing much better and so not much comparison can be there. Malaysia is doing better too. It is still not true that some country's scientist invent something and his name is not as significant as his invention. I hope in India better to invent than to just work hard for commerce. Give the world too so you will know what this does to identity.

I wish well. But I still see Gandhi as right and relevant to todays world. Maybe not for Indians but others around the world.

As for Gandhi and power. He had no power. British had all the power. Gandhi was not much respect by the British even. He was a poor starved man in one cloth as a symbol of Indian people.

India should also pay attention to athletics and sports. Any mention on India's effort in last Olympics? Such a huge country, huge population, much more to expect.

To reject question is easy, to face it is difficult. I care for India and I see a relation with it through the husband. But Indian achievement is nothing compared to those with which it must compete in the global race.



Edited by Polki_Zofi - 14 October 2012 at 4:25am

LeadNitrate

Viewbie

LeadNitrate

Joined: 28 March 2007

Posts: 13564

Posted: 14 October 2012 at 5:31am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Polki_Zofi

Partition was a choice of Indians, being invaded and then killed by German NAZI forces was not a choice Poland made or any other poor nation in Europe. So it is not comparable.

 please stop talking. people did not want partition, the Leaders did, for their own greedy needs.  I am sorry for being so rude, partition was as much choice of Indian as getting killed was the choice of polish people.   Why exactly is death of million innocent people not comparable? That is the white supremast talking. I am sorry to say that.You are sentimental because it is possible the holocaust affected you  somehow. Well partition affected me. IF you choose to put down the pain and suffering of so many people by some lame ass judgement, you deserve to receive the same.



Your Bose met Hitler but it was Hitler who refused to deal with him as he considered bose inferior. Sorry but you must face it. I did not know about your bose but now that I studied a little, it is clear he was aimless and only raised a militia which achieved practically nothing. His alliance with adolf hitler is poor.

 Have you read about gen Shahnawaz Hussain, Cpt Laxmi Saigol, Major Saigal. No, i doubt. But I don't expect you to have a thorough knowledge of  Indian history, its too much to ask for, so you are free to have your opinion and so do I.Smile But I request you once again, please do not pass judgement based on your knowledge. Trust me you will not like it when you get it back.



Someone live in Germany here thinks of Germans are representative of Europeans thinking the way they think? Germans are an economic center of Europe. They have more Indians, while we in Poland dont have.

Some one living in Poland here think they represent what all europeans and poles think about Indians. Poland is not the only country where polish people can be found. And Students have a chance with interact with the youth of many nation, irrespective of economy. Rather students do not think what economic big wigs decide, their exchanges are lot based on knowledge and technology and common interest. So please don't assume living in germany equates to knowing only germans. There are enough polish ,greek, romanian, armenian, eukranian turkish, russian, and other european people, specially students living in germany and other european countries now. The world is a much smaller place than you think, living in one place does not mean interaction is limited to the locality only.

Indians are hardworking like any other nation, I respect India for it. Yes you are hard working, but I wish you be better to your can get some success as a nation too. China is doing much better and so not much comparison can be there. Malaysia is doing better too. It is still not true that some country's scientist invent something and his name is not as significant as his invention. I hope in India better to invent than to just work hard for commerce. Give the world too so you will know what this does to identity.

Thanks for your wishes. SmileBut a country roughly the size of europe, with as many diverse language and culture as europe, has also a lot of problem. Are all the members of EU equally advanced? No. Now replace EU with central Govt of India and you get the gist. China is doing better than USA even, and certainly better than greece, spain,Portugal,Poland  and lot other european countries. Why don't you compare them for a change? Problem exist everywhere.

 Invention, let me talk about very recent invention.You know the HIgs Boson particle? Do you know where the name Boson comes from?  Why don't you google and find it out.
India has given the world enough, certainly more than what you know it seems.  IF you are really that interested in India's well being, why don't you spend some time finding them out. Right now, your post sounds very shallow and devoid of any fact.

I wish well. But I still see Gandhi as right and relevant to todays world. Maybe not for Indians but others around the world.

I agree to some extent. yet his principles are a bit too lofty but worth following, and not for India but for the whole world. But why is the onus on us to follow it even when it is impractical? Why don't you write a post on how the USA should follow Gandhi's principle and stop those drone attacks  or condemn the way they hunted down OBL? because its impractical, its nice when it sounds, to turn your other cheek. But self defense is a right of any living creature, and you cannot dictate them how to behave. Its for people and country to decide.


India should also pay attention to athletics and sports. Any mention on India's effort in last Olympics? Such a huge country, huge population, much more to expect.

Well the country has enough problems, athletics and sports included. And India does pay attention to it. But its a huge country with democracy, things will always move at very slow speed. Efforts of India in olympics was amazing one time, extremely poor in between and is gradually improving. HUge country and huge population also has huge poverty. When you don't have food, everything else takes a backseat. The current world champion in chess btw is Indian. 



To reject question is easy, to face it is difficult. I care for India and I see a relation with it through the husband. But Indian achievement is nothing compared to those with which it must compete in the global race.

NO one is rejecting question, we are brave and smart people and we face every problem and we look for solutions.
I am glad you care for India, whatever the reason maybe. But your posts, unfortunately, do not reflect it. 

It lacks any fact, only emotional outbursts supported by some random information most of which are not true. For example you talk about Indian achievement but you fail to give example how India lacks achievement. How do you define achievement?  Most of the educational,research  and business institutions around the world have Indians in the top positions. Is that an achievement to you or not?
You talk about science and invention but you only go as far as you want to see. You do not seem to be interested in anything beyond what you choose to know. Do you know how laughabale it sounds when you ask  India to contribute to the world?  
Your posts sound ignorant and condescending, made specifically to prove how better you are. It sounds typically like those of the christian missionaries who had landed in the early 18th century in India to spread the light to dirty niggers.

Just because we are receptive of criticism and different point of views does not mean we are ignorant or weak. It means we respect other people's opinion. And gandhi, whom you respect so much, even he did not shy down from taking action , when being pushed over constantly. Please read how he fought for equal rights in South Afrika. So please do not misjudge our willingness to receive criticism as our lack of self esteem.

I don't know how you had the impression of the India you are talking about, but that picture of India is a figment of imagination . 




PS: THis is my humble request to you, let us not discuss the holocaust or partition of India. Both of them are very sensitive issues and very dear to us it seems. Dragging them unnecessarily will only make matters ugly and deviate from the current enjoyable debate we are having.  I have utmost respect and sympathy for those innocent victims of the holocaust,but partition of India is an equally painful subject to me. If you cannot respect that, maybe we should not talk about either of them.

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sub_rosakavyasam

Polki_Zofi

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Polki_Zofi

Joined: 18 October 2010

Posts: 289

Posted: 14 October 2012 at 9:09am | IP Logged
Very shocked to see your reaction. If display of overflowing emotion can be seen anywhere, it was your post. Sorry but it is true enough. I know it is India forums, but truth is as it is. You can ofcourse deny.

You can never get an idea about a country through some students. Neither did I think I knew India when I met some Indian students at my university in Lodz. It was only after I came to India that I felt I came to know a little.

I am related to India through my marriage and my son. I visited my in laws there. You feel the little begging children at cold nights is a figment of my imagination? You can think so, but I know what I saw. I also saw the indifference of other Indians who were enjoying around them.

All the modern inventions of this world are done either by Europeans or people with a European background (or Russian, if they would consider themselves non European). Higgs-Boson invention is good, congratulations, but there should be more. Simple. More such names that people wish to follow or idolize in this world. I am not from science faculty, but I also know names like Newton, Einstein, Koppernik etc. Electricity, TV, Radio, washing machine or particles, everything you name it. I am not trying to demean India, but I just think that India gave the world Gandhi and such philosophy more than the material inventions. You obviously misunderstood.

You can get back at me with anger, but anger is sign of helplessness Smile. Dont be like that as I am not attacking you. Germany and its universities cannot explain you a European world, its much more diverse and big.

Whole Europe compared to whole India or China is much more rich and self sufficient. We are much more developed and the wealth distribution is better than China and India put together. Please remember that, and this is the reason you came to Europe to study and will possibly try to live too (I welcome it).

EU is fast becoming the most powerful uniting force. Europe is rising once again, more united and powerful. This recent economic problem we face brings us closer to that goal. Once we solve it, we are stronger. We will solve it and Europe and Christianity will reign supreme, as always.

Please dont say wrong things about missionaries. Christian missionaries were selfless. One such was Matka Teresa as she gave up all for helpless Indian children. Have some conscience please.

I did not bring Bose in this topic, it was totally on Gandhi. Someone else did and then after I checked, he tried to come to a deal with adolf hitler, and so he cannot be respect by any righteous person in this world. If you live in Europe you should know this. If you dont know this then it is very sad and I am worried. Mr Bose even married an Austrian in hiding, not open. So he did not get respect from hitler either. What I wrote about Indian national army is written many places. It was after all a militia. If you did not want him discussed, you could have not mention him. If you mention him you must have the heart to listen something more about it. Why such a reaction when something you dont like comes up?

Partition of India was not brought up by me, it was brought up by someone else. Someone compared it with second world war's fallen. So there was to be another mention, why you did not expect this?

Someone in this topic mentioned that India and Pakistan and Bangladesh all wanted to separate. I think she was King Anu. As she is from Pakistan, she feel it is a separate entity and they always wanted to separate.  So it is the choice of you and your people. The leader represent the people. Hitler had much love letters and was the most popular leader of his time, Germans cannot deny that he was not their leader, because he was. I did my research on this much, I welcome you do that. This is our history, European history. Before comparing it to partition of India, remember that you talk about hitlers massacre to a European, and she may know better. I had personal loss in family, but it was not the choice of our nation or our leaders.

If you talk on something, if you bring up something, you must prepare yourself to listen to the reply. If you dont want something, dont mention. Simple.

You have wrong idea about me and my thought on Indians. I just feel if India followed Gandhi, they would be on better track. I am curious about it.

The failure in sport and science or economy is not because India is huge. There are other huge countries too, as China and Russia. They also suffered, sometimes much more than India. Australia is huge, so is USA. Poland is not a small country, but compared to India, our wealth is more even and infrastructure better. Show me a street urchin who is uncared in Poland, even in village. I dont demean India by this, just highlighting how moving away from Gandhi made India broken and now in great corruption and chaos. No one else helped India as much. Cricket and a chess champion for a nation like India is never enough. Chess is good, cricket is a British game unknown in most of Europe or other parts of the world. Olympic is the prime stage of human capabilities and national image. I wished India won more.


Indias national economy can be stronger than Malaysia, but quality of life is not better than little Moldova even. There is nothing to be shy, as I also wish India to be better. My son is half India, why I will hate India.

I have not much good English. I learn it still, and better with Russian and Polish. So dont take me wrong on language if you did.

Bless you, I hope you can understand missionaries better and the light of Christ may reach you. Amen.





Edited by Polki_Zofi - 14 October 2012 at 9:10am

Pratamesh

IF-Dazzler

Pratamesh

Joined: 02 December 2010

Posts: 4652

Posted: 14 October 2012 at 11:57am | IP Logged
Let me clarify certain facts here i guess u may be knowing that zero(0)was invented by an indian also what english we speak its major words comes from sanskrit if u knw that. Talking about gandhi,i guess it looks like someone has googled which is the only country to get independence by non-violence and got an answer is INDIA,bt sorry to say that isnt the truth. Here i would also talk abt Bose as he was mentioned in ur post as aimless if u know bose before forming the army he had won the president post of congress,he was extremely brilliant and wanted india to get independence at earliest,bt gandhi forced him to resign and made nehru in his place. Bose formed INA and started a war against british for that he took help from japan and germany n here u wer talking abt how bose met hitler bt he only wanted the indian soldier's of war from germans dnt just mix holocast with bose meeting hitler. Gandhi didnt had any part in independence if u knw it was the INA soldier's who after being defeated wer nt given proper hearing by british and court marshalled that lead to mutiny in the indian soldier's working for british india army and it was here that british realised they had lost the indians who helped britian control india for so many year's.n hence britian gave indians independence in haste to save themself from anger of partition which was growing. I guess US should follow gandhian principles first they wer the once who dropped bomb on japan. If u are talking abt modernizatn its good if u read how britian exploited india over year's and looted it than u may know why all european countries became rich when indians are still developing also it guess its over for the EU their GDP is shrinking Greece,portugal,spain are few examples US Has so much debt from china. It was only gandhi who was responsible for partition he was like a britishman delaying our independence by abt 20year's.

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LeadNitrate

Polki_Zofi

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Polki_Zofi

Joined: 18 October 2010

Posts: 289

Posted: 14 October 2012 at 12:18pm | IP Logged
British ruled India, not entire Europe. So the wealth and modernization of Europe is not due to India. Maybe to some extent Britain, but not whole Europe.

The Economy of Europe is facing tough times, but like all times we will come out of it even stronger than before. It is a test for us which will open doors for a stronger and more united Europe once our fiscal problems get solved through uniting us even further.

Why you only talk of GDP? The quality of life is a major factor, and when it comes to people it is the primary factor. Tanks and bombs dont change anything on ground in people's life. Yes maybe in India with every border being an enemy! It is so sad where violence took you.

Bose wanted Hitler to bomb UK and come to India. Please study and research. To tell the truth, Bose can get no respect by Europeans for that. As for you, you may. It is my personal perception just like you have a perception for Gandhi. Your perception for Gandhi to me is flawed because Gandhi had no power infront of British to give him so much authority to influence or stop and start anything. Bose building an armed and violent blood thirsty organization helping Hitler's Germany and Japan is nothing compared to Gandhi's non violent approach to a peaceful secession cannot be compared.

Gandhi is not of my country but still I support his views for the world. Not only me but many countries do. Why you tell me what USA should do? I am not American and I am myself against USA policies. There are many Indian American here you can tell this to them.

I am shocked to see people here call Gandhi schemer to terrorist etc, even compare with Hitler. They even praise Bose. He could become president of your congress but why try to deal with hitler and support japan or hitler? Built a militia even!

You think India could fight with the well disciplined British soldiers? I think British moved away because they could no longer do what they came to do, and that is trade. Gandhi stopped their main purpose, and so instead of staying and spending (earning nothing), they rather left with whatever they got from India. This makes Gandhi a peaceful yet genius. This is why he is so revered.

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