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did India move away from Gandhism? (Page 3)

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Polki_Zofi

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Polki_Zofi

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 9:14am | IP Logged

Rural dont neccessarily mean poor, but for India I see this is an exception Ouch. I saw some rural people, and they were weak and poor, accept for a few ofcourse. I have seen my husband's family in UP to be quite a wealthy relatives, in Delhi ofcourse it is city and people are better off. Still I cannot forget the day when I was swarmed by so many small beggers on Nehru Palace/Place one night. So many begging children I never saw before. Infact I never saw a begger child before and India was my first visit outside Europe.

I have heard there are many monkey's in Old Delhi and I will visit it next time Smile, much to see yet!

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Pratamesh

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Pratamesh

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 11:03am | IP Logged
India has moved away from gandhian principles in a way it is better becoz those values dnt work nowadays and if u follow they u wont survive here in india. India moved away from gandhian principles and nw nt even the politicians who keep saying his name respect his values leave aside the common man.

--arti--

Goldie

--arti--

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 10:10pm | IP Logged
Hi Polki Zolfi. To understand India beyond surface level interactions, something that might be helpful is a crash course on political economy (starting from colonialism, and a bit about pre-colonial times). It helps explain a lot of things about the current world order, and about India as well. I'm not trying to sound rude or anything, but it's unfair to pick one moment in time and expect to "get" things without knowing how they became the way they are.

A lot of people in the west only know Gandhi. Some might even say they want to know only Gandhi. The truth is that India has a strong tradition of creative, powerful (not always non-violent) freedom/resistance movements, many that are ongoing. There is a great diversity in India in terms of languge, culture, political landscape and so on.

I have a lot of problems with the Jungle Book. It uses the same tropes about India that other posters in this thread have pointed out as problematic. Kipling was an outright defender of British imperialism, and many of his writings about India were quite racist. There's a lot of critical analysis of him that's readily available online. I hope you will find other, more progressive children's literature to share with your child.

Cheers.


Edited by --arti-- - 07 October 2012 at 10:09pm

Polki_Zofi

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Polki_Zofi

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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 2:10am | IP Logged
Rudyard Kipling racist Confused, how???
 
How easy is it for a white person to be a racist can you tell me? I have heard it is very easy, but really! The author you wrote about is a British born in India, so should he not have any love for Britain? Many Indians live across Europe and USA (both built by Europeans), still when you consider India a part of your identity, do we call you racist? You know well that this creates an integration problem in Europe specially, but we still let it be in name of diversity.
 
In British India I am sure many Indian would be too in support of it. So what you make of them? Today the modernization of India has much from the British. You also speak in their language, you prefer to dress their culture, prefer to live their culture. There must be more good than bad in British India that it left such a strong imprint only after 200 years of rule.
 
Estonians have been forever under Russian domination, but please visit and see how much they follow Russian way of life, or even other European. They have specific way of life still maintained after many years of subjugation, but they maintained. You may at first look fail to see the mild differences in clothing and behavior in European countries, but we can see it clearly and its intact. It evolved with time in a different way, but very European way.
 
I checked S.C. Bose in google and found he shook hand with Hitler Confused. His daughter (a half Austrian), born of a wedding done in hindu ways and not in the national way because they were afraid of Hitler's laws. Still favored Hitler, killer of millions of Europeans. I dont know how you call him hero, as that incident enough can classify him as an unliked man in Europe. Mention of Hitler's name is banned in many parts of Europe.
 
Gandhi was tolerant and peaceful, so you think he was weak and primitive? The violent was primitive, the non violence is new, you cant see?

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peridot.zorrro

--arti--

Goldie

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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 8:20am | IP Logged
Yes, Kipling's work was very racist. Did you know he wrote a poem called the "White Man's Burden?" That phrase was used as a moral directive in colonial times, basically stating that white people were superior to people of colour, and that white people had a "duty" to "civilize" us.

This is why I said Kipling was a defender of British imperialism. British imperialism was violent, racist, and yes, a lot of progressive British people probably did condemn it. Criticizing a country's (or empire's, in this case) policies and actions is important, especially when they are messed up policies and actions. Do you think Americans who are anti-war do not "love" their country as well?

I'd like to also dispute something you said. Europe and USA was not "built by Europeans" alone. High amounts of profits were made from imperialism, slaves and indentured labourers. You make it sound like British imperialism was a fun ride for colonized people! Far from it. And it was an extremely unequal transfer of wealth and power, and has directly led to vast underdevelopment in colonized countries. Trust me, colonialism is not very defendable!

Countries like USA defend "freedom" now, but that freedom was fought for by people who were oppresed, including black people through the civil rights' movement. Otherwise until the very recent past, black people were segregated in the US.

And what do you mean, "we let it be in the name of diversity." That's extremely condescending. All europeans, white or not, particularly the British have a lot to think about in terms of history and how NOT to repeat it. And as for North America, Americans and Canadians (I'm Canadian) need to really think about our own privilege here in a land that was stolen from native americans who were treated terribly, and continue to be the most marginalized people here.

--arti--

Goldie

--arti--

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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 8:25am | IP Logged
Also, I didn't call Subhash Chandra Bose a "hero." Unless you're confusing me with someone else here! Not all brown people are the same. Tongue Just kidding. But on a more serious note, I would not generalize in such broad sweeps. In South Asia and in the South Asian diaspora in Africa, Europe, North America, and so on, there are a lot of people who are descendants of this history that we are talking about, and there is bound to be a great diversity of views. I wouldn't generalize that "white people think x," for example.

I said that Gandhi is one historical figure who is overrepresented, particularly in the West. Gandhi gets romanticized. Among his contemporaries, there were those who did not agree with Gandhi, including those like B.R. Ambedkar, whose writings I have found really interesting. My point merely was that there were many struggles for freedom, and many continue within South Asia.


Edited by --arti-- - 08 October 2012 at 8:27am

Polki_Zofi

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Polki_Zofi

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Posts: 289

Posted: 08 October 2012 at 9:23am | IP Logged
Yes arti, maybe someone else mention him. Sorry Smile. After reading about his step with Hitler, I feel he was mislead. Hitler killed many in Europe including numerous Poles.
 
Here is a source about founding fathers of USA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States
 
Slave trade was rampant around the world, including Arabs and Asia too. It is shameful that people indulged in such practices, but you cannot blame just the "White" or "European" for it.  The founding fathers of USA all had clear European ancestry, and most of them (if only not all) made visits to Europe for their family. The way USA is developed is clearly showing massive European influence, and infact everything about USA is more European than anything else.
 
Yes natives were killed by the British, this is hideous and its with opposing. They did same in Australia. But they also developed the place. Those were the times when one nation would attack and conquer other nation to accumulate wealth, power and nobility. India was such aswell. There were kings in India who fought and died for the same. The British were only more powerful and their strategies were better.
 
Poland had colonists too, and we also had great oppression. But we clearly denied the colonists culture, language or other aspects to seep into our society. This is because we clearly rejected colonists and always had uprisings and moments of independence. However, here India surprises me. Indians accept everything Anglo Saxon, but also talk about their oppression and denial of British. This conflicts. This is not the same in Europe. Each European country have a different way of dressing, architecture, language. We are still distinct, but for that you need to be European to detect our change. We have many common things across Europe so its not easy for a foreigner to see the difference which is still present in every little thing of ours. It tells about our identity. European but also national.
 
I welcome India's choice, but then to say that they never liked British conflicts here. They prefer to speak in their language aswell. They wish to go there. To become educated, noble or respected, the Indian person must give more and more European identity than being Indian. I asked my husband and he says that "India" is also a British given name!
 
Gandhi alone was an Indian who showed the world that Indians can live happily with their natural outlook without any interference from west. Gandhi behaved more Indian than any Indian today I think. He also founded an Indian way of expressing his feelings. He raised a cultural awareness and a new way towards freedom. How can he be equated to others?
 
While other Indians looked towards the Soviets or the Colonialists for inspiration, Gandhi took inspiration from selflessness, non violence and true Indian feeling!
 
This is what makes Gandhi special. There is reason why the world appreciate Gandhi so much and don't know the name even of others.
 
 
 

Polki_Zofi

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Polki_Zofi

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Posts: 289

Posted: 08 October 2012 at 10:19am | IP Logged
I just read the poem "White man's burden". I am not so good in English but I think he is being little short sighted there. But maybe his wish is not so polluted? If so, how can he write such a beautiful children's book like "Jungle Book"?
 
I also read some reviews which says that there are a group of people who believe that he asks the British to develop the countries they conquer and make sure that after they develop and educate them, the British leave.
 
No one listened to him and British did not wish to leave unless prostested. However his wish was clear I think. He only wanted development by those who colonised. It is the minimum they must do. They conquered because the others could not defend themself, and it was the world in those days. Indians also seem to agree in deed if not in word. They accept the teaching and philosophy of the west, not their own. So how you say Kipling was racist? If Kipling is racist, many Indians too are racist Confused
 
Anyways, I have no interest in Kiplings personal life, rather I love his Jungle Book Smile

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