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did India move away from Gandhism? (Page 12)

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return_to_hades

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return_to_hades

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Posted: 17 October 2012 at 10:56am | IP Logged

@King Anu

 

Regarding your response to Tannipartner

 

You misunderstood a figure of speech and reacted quite crudely asking a person to "behave civilized and not like a wild animal". That is quite a personal attack in my opinion.

 

However, I did give you benefit of the doubt for misunderstanding. If you look at my first post on the disagreement between  you two, I did call out Tannipartner too for being aggressive in her response to you (which she acknowledged and took responsibility for).

 

I did not make any personal comments towards you. However, your response whether you intended it or not was ungracious, self-righteous and obnoxious. I stand by that statement wholeheartedly. I'm not in a position to say if it is a reflection of you as a person. But the words and tone you used were such.

 

You did not accept an apology. You did not accept a misunderstanding. You berated the person by saying, you aren't a kid implying that you know better than others. You showed no remorse or apology for insinuating that a member is behaving like an uncivilized wild animal or aggressive physical verbiage like "no mai ka lal can touch you without permission" when no one made physical threats. You further chastise a person for not having a right frame of argument.  If such a response is not ungracious, self-righteous, and obnoxious, then I don't know what is.

 

Yes, "tear apart" has a literal meaning. But it is a figure of speech in common English usage. I don't understand why you insist on taking the literal meaning.

 

No, I am not Tannipartner's spokesperson. But when I saw you overreacting and responding ungraciously on a public forum, I felt it necessary to call you out on it. I'd call anyone out for that behavior. I've done that to people on my side, as well as friends when they overreacted in an argument. If I was at fault, I'd expect the forum members to call me out on it.

 

Regarding your response to Partition issues

 

1)      Political decisions do not always represent the will of the people and it is incorrect to always ascribe them as will of the people. e.g. US military actions. Lincoln abolishing slavery.

2)      The pre-partition regions were not functioning democracies. The assembly leaders were not direct representatives of the people. Some were elected based on very loose unstructured framework setup by the British. Others were nominated by their parties, or British officials. It is incorrect to consider those leaders anywhere close to elected leaders in a long functioning democracy.

3)      A majority of the divisive sentiments were a result of British divide and rule policy, the rift within INC and Muslim League.  There was a lot more politics and power play, than public concerns involved. The case of Bengal is a lot more complicated. There were many farming and fishing regions whose perspectives were not considered. East Bengal never had the infrastructure to support the low strata of society. The illegal immigration of people from East Bengal and now Bangladesh has been a huge international issue, reflecting that partition did not serve the common man just separatist sentiments.

 

Regarding the "Lol"

 

Yes, it does represent something light hearted. That is why I suggest you actually use it when you are being light hearted and humorous. You have a tendency to gratuitously  using it as a weasel word or diluting the debate. You make statements with very serious implications and then put a lol at the end of it as if it negates the implications. You use them to wiggle out of debate by claiming you were not serious, even though your words actually put you in the midst of the debate.

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souro

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souro

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Posted: 17 October 2012 at 11:02am | IP Logged
@ King Anu: I think your objection is restricted, if not solely atleast mostly, to the usage of the term 'tear apart'. It's perfectly fine that you objected to it because you felt it's a personal attack. In fact, let's overlook the fact that you also made some ungracious comments when you objected to that term, all under the assumption that it was a personal attack.

However, now that it's cleared up, hopefully to your satisfaction, let's move on.

Will urge the others as well, to leave this matter aside and move on with the debate.

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return_to_hadesBeyond_the_Veil

Forever-KA

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Posted: 17 October 2012 at 12:47pm | IP Logged
One of the limitation of this format is that we can only judge a comment based on what and how it is written. Even in this format If you know a member then you can have an idea what he or she meant. For example I have had arguments with very close friends here where they have even said not so good things about me. However I never mind that because in the end I know they did not mean it (or i hope so lol). 
 
In this case I do not know the member Tannipartner. To best of my judgement I think it was not written as a figure of speech. When you do that you tend to include words like "your argument will be torn apart" and not "you will be" or "people will tear you". Yes I used the analogy of wild animal and that was because wild animals like Lion and Bears tear apart people. In any case I restricted it to that particular action and not the member. It was nothing personal as I just do not know the person.
 
After the apology came I simply said the most important thing is that people realize and not mere words and that member did that. That member did something more than an apology i.e. acknowledged and acted. I acknowledge the most important part and it ain't an apology to me. That was not me being ungracious and certainly not obnoxious.
 
@ Open forum: I am debating on an open forum but that exchange was not a debate. It was a personal exchange. It started on forum and it should end on forum. There is no role of PMs here.
 
@ LOL. I don't use it to weasel out of anything. There is no one that can make me weasel out. Those weasel out who are afraid of losing or an adverse outcome. I am not. lol.  If I can't win an argument or come up with a response I acknowledge that. I am more of a person who gives his views and then tries to not enter into a long debate. This is why I use lets end it. It might not be a good debating habit but nothing else.
 
@ RTH. Thanks. I do not agree with your points related to partition. I believe leaders represent the will of the people and those elections were fairly recent (1946 I believe). They might not have been perfect but then nothing is. There are always some who object. Still lets agree to disagree as there is no other objective way to come to a conclusion today.
 
@BTV and Souro. Thanks. I see your points. Maybe I should have given the benefit of doubt first. However it came out as very offensive. Anyway. 
 
@ Tannipartner.  I do not know what was in your heart. You wrote something and in my judgement I did not see it as a figure of speech. Therefore I responded accordingly. Now you are telling me that you did not mean that. Fine. I am someone who by nature trust people. Therefore I am putting aside my earlier reply. I take back my words and would like to apologize for that comment. Your action was not a wild one. lol.
 
@ All. I have read, analyzed and taken note of all points. This is the end from my side.

souro

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souro

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Posts: 13892

Posted: 17 October 2012 at 12:48pm | IP Logged
@Polki_Zofi
Europe looted other countries to have the wealth and time to make inventions. We are using the inventions that we funded in the first place. If you have a problem with that... boo hoo.

You have a problem with us not following Gandhi. Well we don't want to be like Gandhi, period. You guys follow Gandhi if you wish to, we won't stop you.


Edited by souro - 17 October 2012 at 12:51pm

souro

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souro

Joined: 27 January 2007

Posts: 13892

Posted: 17 October 2012 at 12:49pm | IP Logged
**Viewbie's Note**
@Polki_Zofi:
If you didn't know, proselytising is not allowed on this site. So, henceforth if you try to preach about the greatness of Christianity or even wish us to see some kind of light, be ready to have your posts edited and maybe even warned.

If you want to debate whether Christianity is great, go ahead and open a topic.


Edited by souro - 17 October 2012 at 1:17pm

LeadNitrate

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Posts: 13289

Posted: 17 October 2012 at 12:50pm | IP Logged
 To qoute RTH , sometimes you have to lay it out on the open, even if it means flogging a dead horse

Originally posted by Polki_Zofi


You should show this thread to you Polish friends tannipartner. 

I did, they requested me not to judge  them by one rotten apple.


Quite an aggressive personality you are.

 Ever heard "Survival of the fittest"?Darwin propounded the theory. 
In a world where a random person comes of judging an entire country full of people, from her one cursory visit and probably around two years of association with the country, and passes judgemental, rude remarks  an dictates them their culture, what do you expect?  I told you long time before, you get what you deserve. If you want soft approach, you do same. after 8 pages of racist , condescending and deluded remark, you expect people to take all that?


 I doubt people I meet online more and more.

you trust people you meet online?

 I doubt you having anything to do with Europe.

As you yourself said above, you doubt people you meet online. So self explanatory. I am in no mood to convince you. 



 Anyways, it is clear enough for me who was aggressive here, 


Read yourself, who started the thread. Big words for someone who start judging  a country of 1.2 billion people based on one visit extended to one family only. 

Originally posted by Polki_Zofi



 I certainly doubt it. But my knowledge of India is still confined to one visit only, and I met people within my extended family mostly, with some of my husband's friends from outside the family Smile




You can never get away saying things about missionaries to a Catholic and get away with it. You said it, you had to listen.  

You  too can never get away saying you know what is better for me. If you dare lecture me about my conscience about missionaries, you will listen to every word I say about them. You dare tell me to have an open mind, then i will open yours as well. Don't like it? 

"Do to no one what you yourself dislike."



As I move away from topic already so I will not continue with it. This is responding to your restlessness.

Yeah right, read your opening post. What is your topic? India and Gandhisim?India is a land of elephants and monkey and tajmahal,?Indian women have no respect ? YuHu look, I went to India once, I met a family there and see now I am a living expert on Indology.
MaxMller spent his entire life researching the vedas and Upanishads and yet never claimed he knows about India. and he had much more reason to be highhanded and condescending.



Originally posted by Polki_Zofi

The nonsectarian and nonviolent teachings of Gandhi seem to be sidelined in India nowadays. He had another great quality of sacrifice and humble living. He taught people to be content.
 

 
In Europe still some children think of India as a country of elephants and monkeys with many jungles and tigers Smile, so did I once (there is Tajmahal too!). If there is anything beyond that, in school we come across Gandhi. Gandhi is a great figure outside of India, but do you Indians think he is equally revered inside India by its new generation? Does this help India and its evolving culture and values?
 
I certainly doubt it. But my knowledge of India is still confined to one visit only, and I met people within my extended family mostly, with some of my husband's friends from outside the family Smile. Indian women still have not much respect and it is my personal perception, they also remain malnourished. This is something Gandhi wanted to abolish too I think, he wanted a simple yet content life for the Indians.
 
I wish India was like I once imagined, it was so exotic.Embarrassed



You ou seem to have much knowledge on Europeans? 

 European History or world history for that matter, is not your personal property. You can speak for Poland and Polish if you wish. Don't try to lump Europe as your zone. Other europeans might not like it. And enough knowledgable people exist who despite not being born to a country or culture have much knowledge about the history of a country and culture. Even Indologists, from USA and Europe, who might know more about India than me. But their visit is not limited to one, neither their study of people to one family of relatives. 


 Good for you.  Thank You so much for telling that. Finally My life got its purpose served.


You should feel blessed to be on our lands (if you actually do).   

 Maybe  if I was in your land, but sadly I am not on your land You can keep your land to yourself. 


Be thankful that it gives you opportunity and good life. 

 Honey I created my life and my oppportunities.. If anyone I should thank It would be me and  my God. There are enough lazy, jobless people living on unemployment benefit here whose life doesnt seem to be good despite living here.


Christianity and Europe are never apart, and will never be. Remember it too. 

Really? Where does Turkey belong to then? 
 When you mean Christians who do you speak for? Catholic, Protestants? Lutheran? Evangelical, Greek Orthodox?  Church of England won't find it amusing that you are speaking for them.

You seriously need medication.
You cannot tolerate and must lash out, it gives me nothing but pity.
and it is merely sign of helplessness.   

I will qoute you here, since thats the only way you can write something without making an utter fool of yourself.

Originally posted by Polki_Zofi

Bless you, 

 and the light of Christ may reach you. Amen.



 If you love your country so much, you should leave for India surely too Smile. Why dont you take next flight and leave? 

Why don't you first make up your mind about me.. If I am not in Europe,surely I cannot leave , can I?
And If I am, again, your land is safe from my vile presence. 
Don't get so worked up. 
 

There was one more person here talking many things about Russians, but she seem living safe as a single woman in Russia, which is impossible in India! 

Oh My! How did u know it is impossibleShocked? Is it when you tried to take a walk alone with your relatives in your husband's village on your only visit ? How far did you walk? from the front door till the back door?

I must call my Grandmother and tell her how her whole life is an illusion because she does not live in India at all.
  •   Higher Education check
  •            work: check
  •          respect: check
  • Single woman living alone : Check
Thats a whole lot of check there.

 


Still, ofcourse, you know best about Europe and India and we Europeans are not relevant in our own continent and history or culture? Sure.

Speak for yourself. Europe is not Poland you know. I may know nothin about Poland and Polish people, I know a lot more about Europe and its culture. For sure. Don't lump yourself on the back of others .


 I  offcourse know better about India than you, and so are all the posters who tried to have meaningful conversation with you. But your  refusal to open up to  try and  listen to others drove them away.

But you see I am aggressive and restless , so you have to tolerate me. As long as you will reply to me, you will get one back. Not my problem if it is not palatable to you. You started dishing dirt out.



Religious tolerance? My own husband is a Hindu, I dont try to convert him. If he wishes he may. My son will see both worlds and decide. I will only give him all love and a good family. 


Seriously woman, stop bringing your husband and your son in every damn post. This is not my family your family talk. Give logic and prove a point.  
Good that you are tolerant. You gave us the wrong impression. So many people cannot be wrong. So there is something wrong with you.


Sure he will come many times to India, already we will travel. Many of his relatives look forward to him and keep calling. I am sure he will see the worlds clearly.

Come back and talk to us about India when you have done atleast 10 trips 3 months each. till then .. you will still be the ignorant high handed racist.



I hope you get to hear this more times. 
If you have the gut to show this thread or your behavior in similar manner to other Poles or Europeans, I hope they just ask you "maybe its time for you to leave dear Smile". 

Refer to top for their answer when i showed them.
hey Madam  can you name maybe some 2-3 countries other than Poland? Poland is just  312,679 square kilometres of Europe. And as i already told you, you are safe from my vile presence there. Why don't you let Europe decide for itself? You have a habit of speaking for others. If whatever you say about Europe is true, I doubt they let you to be their Ambassador to world council.
Maybe its time for you to leave India-forums dear. 


For some reason, it is the Indian woman who is so much aggressive, not the men.

Yeah Tigresses are known to be more ferocious than tigers. Your point being?
 How many men and women have you seen? By your own admission, multiple times, there seems to be only what 4 indian men and one woman you have seen in Poland.
 And as in India, women don't have respect there, how do they get the chance to be aggressive? 
Decide first what to say. right now all your statements are contradictory and self destructing.

  But I wish it be healed someday, hope in the name of Christ the Son of God.

Dream on baby.




Never I was involved in such an argument. Infact I am never in arguments LOL

Offcourse, since everyone knows you cannot argue, you just say whatever you want to, without any rhyme or reason.They take pity on you.LOL



Big smileWHAT A CONTROVERSY I OPENED Big smile
 Then you have to face the music.

It is your Father of Nation not MINE! 

Then stop worrying about him so much. he stays fine where he is, on our currency note.


THANK GOD I NEVER DISCUSS GANDHI WITH MY IN LAWS! Big smile

offcourse, you yourself said, in India, women are not respected. how can they have a conversation with you?

Oh btw, Polki_Zofi, did you figure out finally if Bose's daughter is alive or dead? If she is alive where she lives? As in which country?

It would be terribly disappointing if you spend your entire holiday trying to find her in Austria. You won't be able to see any good stuff there , concerts in Vienna, Salzburg, Mozart museum, ride the eisenbahn.. We cannot let that happen to you. We still follow non violence of Gandhi and do not want people to suffer unnecessarily.


Oh BTW: When you are done enlightening us deluded fools, maybe you can read up our posts and try to come back with some sort of reply? It seems you are more interested to show us light than do some homework and show yourself some.

PS: Your topic heading is answered  in the article posted by you, yourself


And you did not even know that. 
The charge is very simple:

Stay away from making high-handed remarks about India on India-Forums and stop preaching us way to light. We will call you and ask you, when we are interested.



Edited by tannipartner - 17 October 2012 at 1:15pm

return_to_hades

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return_to_hades

Joined: 18 January 2006

Posts: 20676

Posted: 17 October 2012 at 1:22pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by King-Anu

@ RTH. Thanks. I do not agree with your points related to partition. I believe leaders represent the will of the people and those elections were fairly recent (1946 I believe). They might not have been perfect but then nothing is. There are always some who object. Still lets agree to disagree as there is no other objective way to come to a conclusion today.


1946 is not recent. Had it been 1996, I'd agree.

 

If you wish to accept factual inaccuracies as truths, then that is your prerogative. If what you state is your "opinion" . I won't deny you your right to it.

 

I stand by most of my comments about partition as factually representative (there were some opinions). If anyone has a problem with my claim  facts, then I'm up open for debate and willing to post references as well.





Edited by return_to_hades - 17 October 2012 at 1:23pm

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LeadNitrateBeyond_the_Veil

LeadNitrate

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LeadNitrate

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Posted: 17 October 2012 at 1:38pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Polki_Zofi

Originally posted by krystal_watz

@Polki:
Just one question--Why did you not reply to any of the valid counter-arguments raised by Tannipartner? She clearly took each of your points and nullified them, yet you keep talking with no attempt to address those. You should know that to have a matured debate, you should DEBATE in the first place. All you keep saying is, "May God help you see light" and "I wish India got better", both of which make you sound vapid and immensely condescending. Better you quit if there's nothing more you have to offer here.

I have answered each. 

No you haven't. Why don't you start with your comments on the friendship of Gandhi and Mussolini and move on to more serious stuff, like why you think death of your family members are infinitely more important than death of mine? Is it coz you are applying 1= Rs 66 rule and determining only when 66 members  of my family does will you consider equal to one?

But then when people dont see, not much can be done.

Exactly. even when you force then in front of mirror and ask them to take a look at themselves.

 Christ gave answer to all the question by the Jewish priests, but they said He did not. It means nothing.

Oh  you poor soul. to qoute you: 
Originally posted by Polki_Zofi


Bless you, 

 and the light of Christ may reach you. Amen.




 If you wish you can see through the answers.

Not if they are written in invisible ink.

 If you wish more, in write each question once more in numeric order, each question being 10 words Smile. Without attack.

Atleast 5 members wrote the questions, you chose to bypass them and preach sermon.

By the way, Gandhi is my favorite national leader in the world. 

Reiterating, I admire and respect that. Keep it to yourself. We will decide for ourselves.


I cannot understand so much aggression. 

Possible because you never imagined you can get back some. We are unenlightened folks. we believe Karma is a biyatch. May be you are getting back what you dished out?

By the way, I dont think tannipartner or those who feel same are interested to see any other answer. 

 Yeah speak for yourself, I did not appoint you my spokesperson. I can speak. thank you.


They have decided on their perspective and they will never change it.

OMG! We are long lost twins. We seem to do the same thing. Don't you think? Although i did it 5 pages less than you.Big smile


 Much like many aggressive groups in the world, nothing can show them the light.

I can name one such group!! But nah, we uncouth Indians do not believe in hurting other people's sentiments never mind if they do it over and over again.

I am a true Catholic and I will always ask everyone to see light Smile

What is the color of the light btw? and in which spectrum does it lie? Visible? Infrared? UV?Big smile


Tannipartner must also work on her attitude. 

Thanks, you just saved  me a seminar course. Much obliged.


Although I feel she is not aware of it Dead

 Now I am. Now I know I should stop taking bullshit right from the beginning and speak to people in the language they understand.


I have seen similar lady though, an Indian in a get together in Poland. She later left to India. 

Now that you have done the very unchristian thing of cursing me indirectly, can i return the favour?  You are the civilized one, you tell.


I wish well for the women of India

They appreciate it. Who doesn't want good wishes for free?


 and self esteem. whose? yours? Yes, I wish you too.

(not talking about all Indian women, many surely have lot of courage. Just saw some very aggressive, maybe as they are less in Poland and close down. 

How many did you meet? I just counted one. I sure have a lot of courage, going up against a mighty white european as you. Don't bother. I will pat myself on my back.Big smile



Recently very motivated to read about Malala of Pakistan!

Good luck. She is  an inspiration.)   

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