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Phir Subah Hogi
Phir Subah Hogi

a mother instinct to protect her child (Page 8)

Kalapi IF-Dazzler
Kalapi
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Posted: 10 August 2012 at 9:47pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by hillydee

There is some constant misunderstanding on this forum, and it is very unfortunate that no matter how many posts, completely clear on us Sugvi Fans feeling, opposing views cannot understand:

1. We under NO circumstances condone Vikram Lying, I am shouting this     from the roof top.  How many times and ways must we explain ourselves?

2. We are upset with Gulabiya METHODS in handling the situation, from day one, because a lot of her emotions are based on her bad experience with Thakurs. Her first thought was not to trust Vikram and she continued until there was actually something to not trust him about.
Gulabiya cannot see any Thakur as good, and she clearly stated that at the to be wedding. She said to Sugni, I told you he is just like any other Thakur who just wants you as a plaything. We know that is NOT true, even though he kept the new knowledge of his wife's existence, he NEVER saw Sugni as a plaything. I am asking those who have not been watching the show from the VERY FIRST episode, to not assume how this story started based on the past weeks of negative shown about Vikram. Also, I am KINDLY asking those who feel Vikram is too old for her to not force us to believe he saw Sugni as a plaything. Whether or not the cvs had planned to show him negative, that is NOT what they showed for the first weeks of this show.  They showed a Good man who did everything for Sugni and her family, even when the whole community was against them, due to her Loser Father TJS.
 

Hilly, the bolded words are what the viewers see the story as. This is becoz veiwers are presented a 360 degree of the story, right...so as a veiwer this is the conclusion, until the Reva issue started. Personally, the age issue doesn't bother me, although there are arguments both for and against that can be very strong...

Anyway, now the underlined portion, the Cvs were trying to present Gulabiya's POV. As a girl. woman and a mother, she has seen any thakurs to be kind to bednis. so, when TVS became overtly helpful, what could her bedni instinct tell her. Actually, when a boy become overtly helpful/interested in a girl, most moms will start wondering about the motive of the boy...surely, he isn't just showing an interest on the girl because of a wondeful heart...what does he wants from this girl??? Question arises in parents specially if it's the daughter. Indians actually are very over-protective and lot of them rather could go for an arrange marriage then a love marriage, as a result, a girl/boy friendship is taken with a huge amount of saltWink

 


Gulabiya chose to live the life of a Bedni, whether or not her family made her do it, I am still trying to figure out what she expected from a MARRIED man, because her life was that of a paid mistress. She even had Sugni with a Thakur, so I cannot for the life of me understand her bitterness, when this was a choice.  With that said, I feel sad she had to live this life, but I would prefer if she did not take it out on  others, who had no control over her demise.  She said Thakurs sees Bednis as play things, but Vikram ask to marry Sugni.  Vikram did not know he still had a wife when he made this decision.  Yes he did not tell the truth when he realised, BUT he had every intention, because that was the Conversation he had with Dhanuma one day at the Old Mansion. 
 

Whether Gulabiya chose a life of bedni is a debatable issue…a person who is illiterate, living in a closed society doesn't necessarily have a lot of options in my opinion. Take a illirate farmer who goes and take loan from the local landlord in India instead of the Bank. These landlords charge them an arm and a leg as interest often taking away the very land, the loan was taken for. Sounds e fabricating this story, glance through any Indian newspaper and you will see a farmer committed suicide because he had no option and this is happening when? Today, right this minute, So, why isn't this poor farmer going to a bank or applying for some government schemes available. If I start writing, that itself will become a serial. But among other reason, they simply don't have the awareness of the possible options and just blindly follow whatever they father and grandfather simply did…Same is how I see Gulabiya, she was young, the norm of the bedni tribe was to do sar dhakai. Her mother died and since both her stupid brothers were lazy of the first order – she did what was the most acceptable profession. So, what do we expect from her – as a mother she could indulge Sugni to dream of a different life, but probably she knew subconsciously that Sugni could be nothing else then a bedni like herself, of course when Sugni wanted. Beside, Gulobiya was able enough to encourage her as long as she could when until, she became sick. For us it's very difficult to really be in their shoe . the education we have received has help us gain a different outlook of the world…but if we start applying the same scale on them, we are only being harsh and unjust to them…

 

Underlined, TVS had the intention, but somehow he didn't do it, instead he kept lying and rushing the wedding…this is how I see it…

 
 
 
 
She said "Don't worry the truth will come out soon, and everyone will understand."  
Shortly after that Gulabiya saw him going to the mansion one day etc., etc. and followed him, found out...eventually they had a confrontation some other day etc etc. She challenged him, he told her what happened , the he did not know his wife was alive, and that she was insane.
Gulabiya response, was to say he is LYING, and she challenged to Sugni's love.  The lady did not think about her daughter's feelings, all she thought about was yes "another Thakur who wants a plaything."
She could have asked him what are his plans since he just found out about his wife, will he divorce her etc. etc. NO she never thought of a mature, rational way ONCE to handle this situation.  There is a saying "Never eat porridge while it is hot." Gulabiya ate the porridge hot and now EVERYONE has gotten burnt. 
 
 

Again Gulo is illiterate…these poor people almost live hand to mouth literately. Do you remember the episode where the mama was excited because Sugni got money and they could eat chicken…how excited they were…exactly that happens in real life…they don't get to eat decent food until someone earn that money in whatever way. So, to these people do you think they will think of lawyers and divorces? First of all, do they even know if there is a thng called divorce? Hindu marriages are not void and in ancient days polygamy was acceptable. The Indian constitution has made polygamy illegal and instituted divorce. To a lot of people, divorce isn't acceptable nor do they know about it. In fact getting into a legal issues is avoid like plague by poor people many because being illiterate they are most mislead and abused (putting it mildly) by the system and the lawyers make a fool of them charging huge money and unnecessarily dragging court cases…So, in this scenario, I don't see and illiterate person asking about a plan…again our education has given us the edge that these people clearly lack…And what feeling should Gulo consider of Sugni, when she sees that TVS is clearly cheating….she acted as her primitive instinct governed her…Actually, most Indian will in Indian directly confront someone…Indian are extremely direct people…never seen and Indian who ask someone at their first meeting if he/she is married?Wink


This thread in particular is mainly about her NEED for her Public Humiliation of Sugni, why just when she is getting ready for the wedding ceremony?  They found Reva BEFORE that, why was she planning to bring this lady out in front of guests in wedding attire, to show how bad Vikram is, never once did she think of her daughter's humiliation. So, that is one of our main contention. 

Well, public humiliation is pretty much part of Indian serials, right, you know it how many we had in our favorite serial?? Done, to get the TRps hogh. But on a serious note, sometimes, in these remotely areas public humiliation is very much part of averyday life, often issues are broungh forward in front of the village (example are of course, wife having extramarital affair and she is tried in front of all vilagers and then stoned – events like these are again found in everyday news, right?). Besides, Gulo has no status in front of the society so if this public humiliation of TVS didn't happen, who do yu think society will believe and side with in the long run???/TVS, without a doubt…

 
 
 
 
 
Just to add a point, Gulabiya NEVER initially supported Sugni's dream to be married, it was Vikram's disgust when he saw her do Rai dance, that made her fully stand up and decide never to do Rai for Thakurs. When Gulabiya realised Sugni was serious, then she started supporting. Gulabiya had accepted Sugni would do Rai, and I never saw her fighting for her other times, when the Thakurs tried to rape her etc. or when her siblings forced Sugni to do Rai. So, when you say Motherly instincts that is very subjective and selective with Gulabiya. 
 
 
She never knew anything different...so giving her the honor of a independent thinker isn't right...most people just follow the crowd in a village...only people with education and awareness stand apart...so, yes, it was Sugni who made her aware ogf her dreams...I see it a natural characterization...
3. Yes, we want Sugvi together, it is not our Fault the CVS decide to turn Vikram Negative before our eyes.  Fine some people don't like Vikram, because they feel he is too old for Sugni. Please respect that we do. Also please respect the feelings of the people on this forum who are married to older men.
 
What is wrong is wrong Hilly. I am not for Sugvi for the storyline so far. Hell, I don't even like Aditya...in fcat, is a romamnce angel really necessary...yes, it is necessary for Zee because of demographies and TRPs...
Not to worry a lot of us will soon leave the forum, because we don't need to waste time on another show gone wrong stupidly. 

Thanks for reading this post.  I am not even trying to offend.  I am just tired of us Sugvi fans being misunderstood. Not because we like the Jodi, does not mean we condone bad behaviour. We have good Sanskaars too. Big smile



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survi035ForeverSHINee

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Posted: 10 August 2012 at 9:51pm | IP Logged
I too read that they get a lot of respect as the breadwinner so that discourages them to stop.. However, I feel that their values are so instilled it is hard for them to see life outside of this, and it could mainly be due to fear.  Fear of change, fear of not finding love and having someone take care of them,  That does not mean they can't change if they are faced with a better life.  It will help them in the long term.  It will have to start small, so that is why I suggested respectable marriage would help, and I believe that is what the Cvs were trying to show us.  I am hoping they too did their research and that is why they are able to write about someone like Sugni, who wants a respectable marriage.  It is the basis of this show, why spoke of marriage giving them respectability. 

Just my two cents. 
Kalapi IF-Dazzler
Kalapi
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Posted: 10 August 2012 at 9:52pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Laila2009

Originally posted by Kalapi

Originally posted by Laila2009

Originally posted by Kalapi

Originally posted by Laila2009

Originally posted by Arvi_fan

Guys stop fighting we all have our own opinions and of course this marriage is illegal and if if YOU are a mom you woulld understand this very well and if you aren't a mom its ok we can post our opinions but not rude ones that bash others on this forum. Guys in my opinion whatever Gulabia did was right she proved  that she is a great mother to Sugni her love is great and she knew what to do. She saved her daughter from a terrible future. What if Gulabia didn't stop the wedding and Vikram and Sugni got married and then after Sugni figures out that Riwa is alive. Then everything is over she cant do anything. Maybe Vikram isnt the right guy for Sugni you never know just watch and find out.
 
Who is fighting? And what does being a mother have to do with anything here or in this discussion? Yes, what would have happened if Sugni later on found out that Reva was alive? The worst is that the marriage would be null and void and she would be living in sin...OK...but now what? Unless Aditya marries Sugni, what is her fate at this point? Will it be any worse? She could eventually suffer a worse fate...However, this another option that was NEVER explored on this show and that is DIVORCING Reva.

Laila, I am not sure what you mean...is this acceptable...I am of the opinion, it isn't. It could be a deception of the first order...and this deception achieves nothing for Sugni...and it pushes are into being a mistress of Vikram (by being a second wife) without her knowledge to begin with...is this right?? At least, if now she even decides to be a bedni, she makes a conscious decision, and is faces deception especially from the person who she loves...sorry, am not trying to create a fight, but I really don't follow you here...

Would you become the mistress of the man who loved forever OR the mistress of some lechorous Takhur? Sugni had TWO options in life...her family was poor and of the two choices the worst that would have happened for her is the marriage would be null and void. Her options otherwise were VERY limited and that would be a life of a Bedni where she could be sold to multiple men, multiple times.
 

No, to me if I become a mistress of anybody, I could rather know fully well, the fire I am jumping into. If a man who confesses all the time that he loves me and then marries me only to know that he is already married to someone else ' I could be devastated. Wasn't I (being so loved by him) entitled to the truth, or can I be just taken for granted, because this man 'thinks' he loves me. Isn't respect of 'myself" part of his 'so ' called" love??

 In that scenario, the whole act of marriage was a deception and illusion created to convince me and make me a bakra who doesn't know that she is going to be slaughtered soon. If I become a mistress, I want to walk into it knowing and not on any other pretext. Actually there are men who will tell girls that they love them to destruction, only that the family doesn't support their union. In that scenario they will convince these poor girls who are blindly in love that even if there are married, they only love this particular girl. The girl believes and start living with the (after performing the so called marriage in a temple or something or putting the sindoor), only to realize over the year what is the difference between a respectable life and a life of mistress. Slowly the whole notion of that unique love falls around them and any child from such a union is considered an illegitimate child. What respect do these girls and kids get'nothing. And the worst part is that the girl trusted the man and thought he loved her. What is love that cannot look beyond ones immediate need to what is good and better option for the 'loved' person? Not all things can be done/accepted or should be done in the name of love. And believe me; once the novelty of this all-encompassing love wears off, what remains is that stark reality of the life of no respect from the society. Very soon, the girl's parent also start not to recognizing her'what is their fault, they too live in that very society.

The fact is that Sugni, when she came to know, didn't 'marry' if you could call that - Vikram. She chose to walk off. Gulabiya did do the right thing by exposing Vikram. Now, even if Sugni become someone mistress or does the Sar dhakai, she does it with the full knowledge of what she is getting into and not under the false pretext of 'love" . Then she is 'choosing' this life with her fully sense on, of being a mistress and not someone else is doing ion her behalf, where she isn't even aware of what kind of fire she is jumping into. Love, to me is the most over-rated word, but, most girls after marriage realizes soon enough that before love comes respect and compassion and the value of 'her' to her spouse. If these are there, love will soon be there too. This to me is the real difference'maybe, I am a minority in this line of logic, but the person that I am I do it knowing fully well what I am getting into'.

I understand your point, but here is the question, the worst thing that would have happened is she would have been living in sin - right. The other option would be living as a bedini.  Of course it would have been better of TVS to have given Sugni a choice, we all know that but he didn't and so this matter does not factor into the equation here. We take what we have and we look at the two options - which one would have left her better off? Married to TVS or living the life of a Bedini becuase unless she marries Aditya, she doesn't have much going for her right now.
 
But, how is illegally married to, be considered a 'legal' marriage...will Sugni ever get a legal divorce, or will Sugni and her future kids be entitled to any property of TVS...in India - NO.., so how is this marriage, even bednis wear the signs of marriage - does it give then the 'Status'...absolutely no...So, is illegally married 'legal' wife of TVS, Sugni will be any different that Gulabiya...setiously, I am confused...

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survi035ForeverSHINee

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Posted: 10 August 2012 at 9:57pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by XAiShBaBy08X

I don't know whether the show will head in this direction...but I think they should show Sugni finding another option.  I think she should stand up on her feet and find another way to live a respectable life just like how she tried to earn money by doing the Krishna drama.  

Why should marriage be the only option?  In real life, the bedni's should find a way to break out of this terrible tradition...that doesn't mean that all of the bedni's should find themselves a thakur husband or someone else to marry.

I hope they show something like this instead of the Adi/Sugni track.  It would be a LOT more interesting.
Xai...that will be awesome...another angel to the show...absolutely, Sugni should have other options than marriage...but I hardly think it will happen mainly because romance drive TRPs to an extent (although the new Aditya turns me off tooWink, his voice is sooo...)
 
The other reason to me is more directly related to the storyline itself...it is what 'Subah' or 'freedom' means to a bedni. Since, bednis are never married to a thakus, Sugni's marriage to thakur's signifies the breaking of a norm...so, we are struck with more romance...

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survi035ForeverSHINee

Kalapi IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 10 August 2012 at 10:06pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by XAiShBaBy08X

I don't think you're understanding me either.  I'm saying that marriage shouldn't be the ONLY option.  Now that they showed Vikram lying, and they stopped the marriage from happening, which in my opinion, was a good thing since she would have become something along the lines of a mistress in the eyes of the society, they should show her doing something else to stand up on her feet.  

I don't want them to jump right into the Adi/Sugni romance.

Afterwards, the marriage track should come up...and hopefully, by then, she has someone else in her life or Vikram has redeemed himself.

I have done some research...even though there isn't a lot of stuff out there about the Bedni and other similar tribes.  I understand that it is extremely hard to come out of that mindset.  And from what I read from your comments, I think that you're trying to say that if some of them get married then their way of thinking will change.  I think this is an option that could work...but I'm thinking of obstacles that come in the way.  It is probably hard to find people who want to get married to Bedni women...which the whole caste system and all.  Also, I have read interviews in which some stated that they would earn a lot more for their families by getting sold instead of settling down and getting married.  In fact, I read somewhere where they said that the breadwinner of the family (the Rai dancer like Gulabiya) has a lot more respect than the married women in their culture and families.  Also, it is hard for Bedni men to find Bedni women to marry because they would much rather earn money...and yes I read that somewhere too.  So, from my research, the biggest problem is that they are earning a lot of money from this practice and getting respect for it too.  The biggest solution I see is education for both women AND men and an introduction to better jobs.  

I really have done research...and I looked this stuff up a while ago...I am one of those fans that HAVE watched this show from day ONE.  In fact, this show originally attracted my family and me because of the new concept of the Bedni tribe...and how Sugni wants to break away from their traditions. 

Do not get me wrong.  I am not accusing you of anything...I'm not saying that you wanted the illegal wedding to occur.  I'm just presenting my view.
 
Xia, you are right, they earn more by being a bedni, then being married to a guy. Think, who could marry them, certainly, not a educated engineer - a labourer who earn money doing seasonal day job and that job disappear once he become ill or handicapped...Most men from even a slightly respectable family will not marry a bedni...the caste sytem in India is I guess as racisn is in USA...so you decide as you wishBig smile
 
And yes, ot of NGO are trying to change the tradition and getting them marraiage, but if the marriage is to a poor labourer and family is starving with no steady income, it becomes a catch 22...

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XAiShBaBy08Xsurvi035ForeverSHINee

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Posted: 10 August 2012 at 10:07pm | IP Logged
I am reading your views...but you are right.  Now I have NO clue as to what you are trying to say.   

But at least know that 

1.  I have read what you have written; I'm not trying to misinterpret what you wrote in order to start a fight.  I really do not like to fight...I do like to debate though...because I feel like I learn a lot more this way...by hearing other people's opinions and facts that are presented. 
2.  I have not accused you of attacking me...because I actually didn't think you attacked me.  I can't say that now...since you did say that I'm not reading carefully enough.  You said that I haven't done research...and all I did was tell you that I have and showed you what I have found.  
3.  I have read opposing views...and the views which I thought were either valid or extremely ridiculous are the ones I have replied to...I thought your post was a valid one.
4.  I think you should take your own advice as well.  

I don't understand why you think that I feel like I'm being attacked!??????  I even stated facts that we agreed on.  We did actually agree on some things which I thought was a good and refreshing thing!


This is what you said:  "but we will never understand how important it is for these women to get married and be loved and not live the life of a mistress.  After they have accomplished that, then they can evolve into thinking more independently like us."

From what I understand, you are saying that after these women get married and feel loved, they can start thinking more independently like us.

This is what I am saying:  Yes.  I understand that marriage is important and that it is important for them to feel loved and secure...then they will then start thinking more independently.  However, marriage isn't as easy it sounds either.  From my research, I have found out that getting married is actually really hard for them...especially when they have the mindset that living like a Bedni (the tradition of selling yourself) is a better option than marriage.  My solution as well as some of the researcher's solution is that they are presented with better options in making money...and that education is important too...to show them that selling yourself is not the only option.  


After I gave you my opinion, I tried to establish some credibility by telling you that I actually have watched the show from day 1...in fact, I watched the show because I have even seen the promos from before the show started...I definitely don't want to get started with my views about how the promos were incredibly misleading!  LOL


So all in all, please do not think that I am saying your views are baseless...I am simply elaborating from it. 







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survi035Kalapi

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Posted: 10 August 2012 at 10:14pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Kalapi

Originally posted by XAiShBaBy08X

I don't think you're understanding me either.  I'm saying that marriage shouldn't be the ONLY option.  Now that they showed Vikram lying, and they stopped the marriage from happening, which in my opinion, was a good thing since she would have become something along the lines of a mistress in the eyes of the society, they should show her doing something else to stand up on her feet.  

I don't want them to jump right into the Adi/Sugni romance.

Afterwards, the marriage track should come up...and hopefully, by then, she has someone else in her life or Vikram has redeemed himself.

I have done some research...even though there isn't a lot of stuff out there about the Bedni and other similar tribes.  I understand that it is extremely hard to come out of that mindset.  And from what I read from your comments, I think that you're trying to say that if some of them get married then their way of thinking will change.  I think this is an option that could work...but I'm thinking of obstacles that come in the way.  It is probably hard to find people who want to get married to Bedni women...which the whole caste system and all.  Also, I have read interviews in which some stated that they would earn a lot more for their families by getting sold instead of settling down and getting married.  In fact, I read somewhere where they said that the breadwinner of the family (the Rai dancer like Gulabiya) has a lot more respect than the married women in their culture and families.  Also, it is hard for Bedni men to find Bedni women to marry because they would much rather earn money...and yes I read that somewhere too.  So, from my research, the biggest problem is that they are earning a lot of money from this practice and getting respect for it too.  The biggest solution I see is education for both women AND men and an introduction to better jobs.  

I really have done research...and I looked this stuff up a while ago...I am one of those fans that HAVE watched this show from day ONE.  In fact, this show originally attracted my family and me because of the new concept of the Bedni tribe...and how Sugni wants to break away from their traditions. 

Do not get me wrong.  I am not accusing you of anything...I'm not saying that you wanted the illegal wedding to occur.  I'm just presenting my view.
 
Xia, you are right, they earn more by being a bedni, then being married to a guy. Think, who could marry them, certainly, not a educated engineer - a labourer who earn money doing seasonal day job and that job disappear once he become ill or handicapped...Most men from even a slightly respectable family will not marry a bedni...the caste sytem in India is I guess as racisn is in USA...so you decide as you wishBig smile
 
And yes, ot of NGO are trying to change the tradition and getting them marraiage, but if the marriage is to a poor labourer and family is starving with no steady income, it becomes a catch 22...

Yupp.  I agree.  I didn't fully explain about the marriages to those who aren't rich...Bedni women would rather not do that since they earn more by selling themselves...and even if they do marry them, then they are faced with the same problems such as starvation...so the only option, once again is to sell themselves.  Thank you for adding this!  I didn't really think about it this way!  Smile

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survi035Kalapi

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Posted: 10 August 2012 at 10:18pm | IP Logged
Hey Kalapi,

Once again, I said Vikram was WRONG, I don't know how else to say it. 
We Sugvi fans are screaming because the CVS turned it wrong and yourself and opposing views are not getting what we have been saying.

We may sound biased because we still love Vikram, but we have said many times he should pay for the lie.  If you want us to hate Vikram to prove we are against what he did it will never happen.  We can't hate him, because the Cvs never gave us that chance in the earlier parts of the show. There was no indication, no hint of a liar or a man who would do anything wrong.  We know he did wrong, but we don't hate him. 

Just like how in the other show we use to watch alike you guys are now defending that Jodi, because you forgave the character for getting engaged knowing he loved someone else, that was completely wrong and I still think it is wrong, but you all forgave him. So, why try to make us look wrong for how we feel on this forum?


There is no way in the show or any thing I have read that points to the Thakurs being overtly helpful then marrying a Bedni.  So, Gulabiya big concern in that respect is very hard to comprehend.  Does not make any sense.  From what has been shown, the first day of the show Sugni was near raped by her own step-brother and his Thakur friends. TJS her own Father has done nothing but disrespect Gulabiya and Sugni. 
The disgusting man who came on to Sugni at the Rai dance was horrible.  

On the other hand, Adi's Dad ran away with a Bedni, they never got married either, but he did choose his Bedni.

So you see the differences?

A Thakur who is up to NO Good normally acts that way in the beginning.

I don't think you understand how much Bednis are looked down on by the Thakurs and their wives.  Vikram stood up for Sugni in front of EVERYONE. There is no way Kalapi that you could have watched every episode and dispute that.   There is no way he could see her as a Bedni, and not a wife and do that.  This man was thrown into a bad situation, and lied, but nonetheless bad situation.  No one here condones that, but we still feel bad for him, because we saw a different Vikram.  If you can tell me a real life story of a man who is up to no good, goes against the world, his family and give the girl his Mother's ring then I will bow before you and take back everything I have ever said on this forum. 

The basis of every Sugvi fan argument is that these losers Cvs came and change what we thought was a beautiful story with the Jodi, the other aspects of the show, and turn it into something ugly.
We saw the nicest courting of a man to a woman, and they turned it into something ugly and cheap, and we don't appreciate, and we are not making any apologies for it. So, we are defending what we wanted.  But we are not saying Lying is right. 

Vikram was wrong, and he rushed the wedding due to desperation of losing Sugni.  He got caught up with Gulabiya's challenge, which was very much in poor taste. Sugni promising suicide and the list goes on. He is paying the price for it now, but I will not accept that he is evil and never loved Sugni. So, many people can't be blind, who saw that Vikram genuinely loved Sugni. 

I know how direct Indians are LOL

Once again, I state for myself and ALL OTHER SUGVI FANS, Vikram was WRONG WRONG, but we want the CVS to fix this and find some way to sort this out, after Vikram cry for some time. 
We know that won't happen, so we will complain until we eventually leave the forum. 











Edited by hillydee - 10 August 2012 at 10:20pm

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