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If you believe in God, refute this! (Page 84)

BirdieNumNum Senior Member
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 11:57am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by Summer3


I guess for want of a better term "witnessing " is used to describle the unmanifest Power as being fully aware and yet unaffected and never interefering.
A simplification would be the "Real"  watches the "Unreal" or the "manifest world". Since the "Real" transcends time and space and dwells in the "present" all the time I do not really know where that takes us.
The Unmanifest Power does not intervene and yet things happen by itself it seems and prayers are answered and help recieved; perhaps at times it is the mind fulfilling its own needs due to concentrated efforts.
(I have also read that if we do not have much "Good Karma Credits"  we may not get much upon appealing to the Higher Self. But if there is a strong bondage of Love, we may still get the results we want. But to the seeker of Truth they have little concern for worldy stuff and the Divine provides whatever is needed. ) 

So, you think consciousness is real and gives rise to matter rather than the other way around? If so, everything around us is lie? And the Universe was not there when no human was here to witness it? So, how do you explain Universe being so much older than us humans. And if we all die this instant, Universe will cease to exist as it is unreal?

And if space and time is unreal, where does this real "power exist"? If everything other than this power is unreal, where does the real power exist?

If everything is unreal, why do we need to come into physical to observe? If the "power" is creating things it can directly observe it, no? And how do you suggest the power is broken up and distributed to bodies? And if it is the conscious thing, it has to "know" to create the physical which is "unreal". Then how can it forget creation?

BTW, this is your model of how the Universe works. Got anything that supports it?

given how fixated you are in in viewing everything only from a 3D perspective, i suppose you would also have problem with 4D space-time or 5D space-time-curvature? As far as I can tell, you seem to be jumping from demanding answers that are grounded in science while refusing to acknowledge even the little science we know as being correct. Earlier you were talking about singularity. Well, how do you suppose we got to that? Yes, science and math. The same math and the same algebra that you disregard when you insist everything is your 3D pixel world. The rest of what you have up there is based on that same falsehood/ inconsistency. You're looking for explanations as if everything has to be 3D when that's not necessarily the case in algebra/ science. What you're struggling with IMO is reconciling your classical view of things with what is being implied by particle physics .

coming to the questions you have above, yes, one of the interpretations of QM is we might be creating the world we perceive by observing it, and by particle interference even the kind of world we see. Why is that so difficult to grasp? Philosophically speaking, we do impact the world around us. People's behaviors change when they are put under the scanner/ under observation. What's the problem? And the world does not have to cease when we die. Perhaps it goes on as some wave-function, something that collapses to the particle world whenever we're around to look at it . As for what created that wavefunction, if anything, that's where I find all answers incomplete... 

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K.Universe.

Vintage.Wine Goldie
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 1:08pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by Vintage.Wine



People have been saying that god exists in higher dimensions. Not exactly 4 D but "higher". And the point was any nD being can't create something in n-1D or less dimension. So, God is just imaginary like our thoughts? In our mind? That means we are creating it rather than it creating us.    <<<<<  Cough Cough !  ( << Clears throat ...) Well ..Who are those people that say GOD exists in a higher dimension? They sound more sloshed than me LOL  I said GOD has NO DIMENSIONS... Now let's consider the two major points you made ..A. Nothing can be dimensionless ... B.  'Things in N / greater D Can't create things that exist in a Lesser dimension model'

 Well tell me this .. Every object / body / mass in the universe is made of Electrons .which is the base element of all structures ..<<< Pertaining to this I would like to state the following ...

 Electrons / are considered to be point objects ...Which means they have no dimension ..

Which is an approbation of the concept of a dimensionless body ...Again ..What are the dimensions of a Black Hole ? I guess black holes are defo the objects that are confined within their event horizon...So Black holes too can't have a dimension ..
 
                                            Contradiction

 Black hole part can't be contradicted ..But let's surmise electrons, since they are out of their
event horizon, they have a dimensional structure ...Let's say 3D .when they are in motion .Now the same electrons that make the Metal oxide Semiconductor field effect transistor structure that have  2D Electron gas present in them ..So what has happened here?  3D Electrons has created a 2D structure ...Which invalidates the earlier theory stated by the people ..

Originally posted by Vintage.Wine




How can something exist dimensionless? And if it does, how can it create or interact with physical things in dimensions? We create our thoughts or love. It does not create us. So, God is just a mental construct?

 Now to my favorite point ..LOVE and Thoughts LOL  <<< You allude to yourself as the Freethinker ..Which means you think and create thoughts ..So we accept the existence of them ..What is the dimensions of your thoughts ? 2 D ? 3 D ? <<<< No Since you are a 3 D object yourself ..According to your own contention your thoughts must exist in a higher dimension ..Like Kaleidoscopic LOL  ..But then your thoughts create this debate .Which in turn makes you press the keys that create those posts of yours which I see in 2D LOL  <<<  Again jeopardizing your theory's validity ... LOL You can not show me your thoughts ..I can only assume that what you are writing here is a true reflection of your thoughts ...That you are not writing something cheekily that even you don't agree to..Tongue   LOVE a feeling ..exists ..Fear exists ..Anger and humor all exist without any dimensions ...Let's relate the GOD to such things ..That definitely exist ..but without any dimensions ...

Originally posted by Vintage.Wine



I was saying that brain never sleeps. When your consciousness sleep, a part carries out all the functions of body.

^^^^  Hic !  ...Cheers we have finally agreed upon something ...LOL .. Phew !! But then again a question can be engendered  ..You say the consciousness sleeps but Brain doesn't sleep..So does that mean the brain operates without any sort of consciousness ?   ...and generates signals that Keeps one's Body and soul together .. LOL .. So does that mean even the brain in a Dead body functions ? Cause it doesn't need consciousness to operate?  It still keeps the heart beating ..Lungs huffing up  ? How can the unconscious brain carry out those functions .Which only points to one thing ...The Consciousness is not lost while one is asleep ...Consciousness is lost only when the death occurs ...Again ..I would like to fetch your attention to a Term that is known as the Subconscious mind ...Which is a mind that works only slyly ..Even you yourself can't know what happens in there ...Let's assume the example of my   Last night's Nightmare ...Where you were chasing me with a noose in your hands trying to smother me to death .LOL.<<< Now such a notion is formed by the subconscious mind ..A mind within the mind ...And what I have truly felt about an event or experience takes a form of a nightmare / dream that I see which warns me of the ramifications ...This happens when on is asleep ...

 Also ..You have stated that the Brain Takes all decisions that are best suited for your existence..and that it CREATES everything ..So tell me this .. ' Have you never taken a WRONG decision in your life' ?  That harmed ya and made ya contrite later ? Or like me you too were  always right? LOL   If Brain is the powerhouse that takes all nice decisions that are best case scenario for your existence ...Why does the Brain err ? Which means the Brain is not perfect ...Its not a great autonomous  mechanism that can CREATE things .as the purpose of creation has to be creativity ..Not SELF destruction...Brain is like an engine that makes the other parts move ..The SOUL ..The ENERGY is the fuel that keeps the engine running...
  
Originally posted by Vintage.Wine




How can a dimensionless being "exist", create dimensional things or even interact with them? And no, I am definitely not 4D. *checks self again* Yes, I am sure. LOL 

 
 ^^^^^   Yehahahaha LOL   Now I must let out my best kept secret ..Try this
 
 2 Ounces of Tequila
 Add some grenadine and Squeeze 1/2 Lemon in that ..
 Then add some Fresh Orange Juice ..and stir well ...


 ^^^  Swig a couple of steins of that heavenly beverage at one go ...and TRUST ME YOU WILL START TO SEE EVERYTHING INCLUDING YOURSELF IN 4 ( Or sometimes even more ) DIMENSIONS LOL

Vintu Tongue


PS :  Your comments are in  Blue BOLD  ..and Mine are in BLACK + RED



 


Edited by Vintage.Wine - 12 October 2012 at 1:12pm

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BirdieNumNum

K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 1:38pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

Why have ya omitted 'OM' from the (Shanti)  Mantra in your Siggy / tag line ...?  You don't like OM or does it rhyme well without that ?


I extracted only those phrases that I thought are beneficial to me and discarded the rest. I thought the OM was tagging along unnecessarily, like my pinky toe. I was also not sure how to interpret the last line "mrutyor ma amritam gamaya" of that mantra but decided that regardless of my interpretation, it didn't fit my needs.

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Vintage.Wine

K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 1:41pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Actually I was talking about the 3 dimensions of space. And no matter what D. The point is can an entity in nD separately interact with n-1D or less?


Originally posted by Freethinker112

People have been saying that god exists in higher dimensions. Not exactly 4 D but "higher". And the point was any nD being can't create something in n-1D or less dimension.



Originally posted by Freethinker112

How can something exist dimensionless? And if it does, how can it create or interact with physical things in dimensions?



Originally posted by Freethinker112

Well "creation" as in the creation people are talking about regarding God creating space time. More like manipulation of matter. It's all in 3D. Like we "create" paper(by manipulating matter but I think you get what I mean) or other things. Everything is 3D, right? We cannot create anything of a lower dimension.

Now, when people say God "created our space time from some higher dimension, how exactly is it possible? A being cannot exist in a dimension without him existing in all the lower dimensions which implies all the lower dimensions exist.. So if he was in some higher dimension, all lower dimension has to preexist, he cannot "create" them? Do you get it now or am I still not clear


This seemingly innocent line of questioning has several hidden questions that touch upon different aspects of Physics and Math but ultimately all of them converge to one "simple" concept: Energy!

But without touching upon concepts like Lorentz force, Lorentz contraction, observational frame of reference, relativity, time dilation etc, you can't expect to understand the final answer (energy) in it's entirety.

Let's start with a photon, the carrier particle for the electromagnetic force. What are it's dimensions? It has zero mass so what are it's length, width and depth? Does it "interact/experience" space-time? Could you please find that out just as an exercise so we could compare notes?

Also, could you please find out why gravity is so "weak" that I could easily pick a small pin using a bar magnet thus defying the gravitational pull of the entire earth?

I promise to tie these to the main question of how an "entity" could "exist" not just in the 4D world that we perceive all around us. Especially, if that entity is pure energy that started the whole shebang.


K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 1:50pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

given how fixated you are in in viewing everything only from a 3D perspective, i suppose you would also have problem with 4D space-time or 5D space-time-curvature? As far as I can tell, you seem to be jumping from demanding answers that are grounded in science while refusing to acknowledge even the little science we know as being correct.


Initially, I thought he was debating vociferously without paying his dues but later found out that he is a very willing student who is ready to do his homework when confronted with complicated subject matter so please don't shy away from bringing in the big guns ala Math/Science where appropriate. I am sure Freethinker will go the whole nine yards in understanding what you are trying to say.

But I noticed that he has a very matter-centric bias when viewing this world. He needs to stop thinking of all this in terms of matter and start incorporating forces and energy (including vacuum energy) in his worldly view.

K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 2:14pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

One should always be skeptical about models that seem to explain some things well but break down when stressed to extremes.  


Agreed.

At the same time we have no choice but to go with what's been proved "locally" and within a given "range". These models are our Bible even if they don't scale up (or down) all to well.

The size of the current universe puts an upper limit (near "infinity") and singularity at big bang puts a lower limit (near "zero") We are forced to operate in this range. On top of that, there are uncertainties governing everything in between infinity and zero. No wonder V.W. took to drinking!
return_to_hades IF-Veteran Member
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 3:24pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112


How can a dimensionless being "exist", create dimensional things or even interact with them? And no, I am definitely not 4D. *checks self again* Yes, I am sure. LOL 


Will a two dimensional object be aware of its existence as part of three dimensions. e.g. Earth appears flat to observers. It could be that we have other dimensions our three dimensional selves are unaware off.

How many dimensions do Mobius Strip and Klein Bottle have?
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Posted: 12 October 2012 at 4:51pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Will a two dimensional object be aware of its existence as part of three dimensions. e.g. Earth appears flat to observers. It could be that we have other dimensions our three dimensional selves are unaware off.

How many dimensions do Mobius Strip and Klein Bottle have?


Freethinker's point is not about how many dimensions we can perceive (or are aware of) but how many are physically present. His argument is that whatever chemical substance you use to make your 2D pictures, mobius strips or tesseracts, the substance will ultimately reduce to elements and elements will reduce to atoms which reduce to subatomic particles and so on but each of these are 3 dimensional in nature. Building on that, he is saying that starting from a spatial extent if we can't go to lower dimensions how could someone come up with (or create) a 3D universe starting from higher dimensions.

To which I pointed out the purportedly 1 dimensional strings as well as the possibly unknown dimensions of a black hole (curvature of space-time as CC/BNN put it)

I also asked about photons and gravity and their "interactions" with dimensions so we will see where it goes.



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