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If you believe in God, refute this! (Page 74)

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BirdieNumNum

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BirdieNumNum

Joined: 07 October 2012

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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:07am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112


Yes of course cause has effect. I hit someone, he gets hurt. That is the effect. It doesn't mean that suddenly hidden entities start conspiring against me to bring me to justice. I say something hurtful to somebody. That is the action. They feel bad. That is the effect. Now they might take revenge, which will be the effect of my actions, but there is no "God" bringing me to justice. And it is not a guaranteed system, it depends on what the person might like to do.

And you are saying yourself that good and bad are relative and not absolute. Which makes an objective Karma theory seem wrong.
 
 
There's always context for things, which makes a certain action right/ good under certain circumstances, and bad under others. We dont need absolute values for karma to hold.
 
So far i was not talking about the need for a God to intervene to effect anything. I was just pointing out certain strange ideas being espoused in various arguments. Smile
 
 

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BirdieNumNum

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BirdieNumNum

Joined: 07 October 2012

Posts: 967

Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:15am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

it would be a pretty boring world if we knew it all, a robotic existence where all the mystery's been squeezed out. Part of the beauty of life is that we can only marvel at the enormity of it all. Maybe that's why it's been designed the way it has?

Maybe to you. I would like some answers. If there is a creator, he at least owed an introduction.
 
maybe if you were real nice to Him and prayed to Him you'd get an answer. Big guys dont give us answers unless they want to.LOL Ok, maybe you should try some meditation?LOL
 
i still think it would be a boring world if we knew all the answers to everything, if we could travel to the corners of the world and be back. What's more then? What makes the universe so fascinating to me is the very fact that it stretches beyond the limits of our imagination. Beauty in this case does lie in mystery, not in knowing the naked reality.
 
another example- if we knew everything, we'd also be able to know what comes tomorrow. Now how's that for a robotic existence? Take uncertainty and unpredictability out of the equation, and there's nothing to look forward to.

Freethinker112

IF-Sizzlerz

Freethinker112

Joined: 16 May 2012

Posts: 13810

Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:18am | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

 
There's always context for things, which makes a certain action right/ good under certain circumstances, and bad under others. We dont need absolute values for karma to hold.
 
So far i was not talking about the need for a God to intervene to effect anything. I was just pointing out certain strange ideas being espoused in various arguments. Smile 

But the Karma theory states exactly that, divine interruption will get you what you sent out. And you said that it should be true because of cause and effect which I said was not the case.

Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:22am | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum


maybe if you were real nice to Him and prayed to Him you'd get an answer. Big guys dont give us answers unless they want to.LOL Ok, maybe you should try some meditation?LOL
 
i still think it would be a boring world if we knew all the answers to everything, if we could travel to the corners of the world and be back. What's more then? What makes the universe so fascinating to me is the very fact that it stretches beyond the limits of our imagination. Beauty in this case does lie in mystery, not in knowing the naked reality.
 
another example- if we knew everything, we'd also be able to know what comes tomorrow. Now how's that for a robotic existence? Take uncertainty and unpredictability out of the equation, and there's nothing to look forward to.

What sort of argument is that? Lack of knowledge makes world interesting so somehow there is a God? I don't follow the logic. And I would rather have the answer. It's the unknown that irritates me. And I don't think everything is predetermined. Even if we understood how this works, I still think the events will be random.

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Samraat_92

Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:24am | IP Logged
@BirdieNumNum

Off Topic : Did you really join the forum for this debate or are you an existing member who wanted anonymity? Just curious. Wink


Edited by Freethinker112 - 08 October 2012 at 4:25am

BirdieNumNum

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BirdieNumNum

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Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:28am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112


Who said that? We put Big Bang at t=0. We are not in a position to say what happened before that. I merely pointed out that theists are ready to believe God was not created and has always existed, which is odd as you noticed. So, if THEY are ready to believe that something can always exist, better apply it to the Universe which is there and we can observe it rather than an imaginary being of which there is no available data. I was improving their theory, I don't agree with it.


 
First read my reply for your first argument.
Occam's razor. Here one entity will simplify things because God doesn't add anything to the equation. We can simply apply the always existing property to Universe, which we know is there rather than an imaginary being. In this case, one will be simpler than two.

 

I don't think all science is "common sense" otherwise we would know it intuitively. And we can study the Universe with the senses we have been equipped. And no, it does not get you the license to spin fantasies. On one hand you claim that we have such limiting views, and on the other hand you make big, ridiculous claims which I can't understand how you came to know since our perspective is so limiting. Confused
 
 
no no, i am not the one spinning fantasies here, although i wish i could come up with a science fiction book or two like everyone elseLOL. I am simply pointing out how one's argument about the universe always existing is eerily similar to other arguments about God always existing. If we can make one statement based on no science you can come up with, others can make the other statement based on the very same lack of science.LOL
 
also we can put big bang or big mac wherever/ whenever we want. Point is that something must have preceded it, unless we also want to say that the very concept of time (and therefore precedence) does not make sense before Big Bang. For some very strange reason, you want to get back to t=0 but want to ignore what came before. For me, the origins of the universe (if any) are key to questions regarding existence of God. Somehow you stop before we get to that point.
 
by the way, what's the big, ridiculous claim i made? Or did you just throw that in there for effect?LOL
 

BirdieNumNum

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BirdieNumNum

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Posts: 967

Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:33am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by BirdieNumNum


maybe if you were real nice to Him and prayed to Him you'd get an answer. Big guys dont give us answers unless they want to.LOL Ok, maybe you should try some meditation?LOL
 
i still think it would be a boring world if we knew all the answers to everything, if we could travel to the corners of the world and be back. What's more then? What makes the universe so fascinating to me is the very fact that it stretches beyond the limits of our imagination. Beauty in this case does lie in mystery, not in knowing the naked reality.
 
another example- if we knew everything, we'd also be able to know what comes tomorrow. Now how's that for a robotic existence? Take uncertainty and unpredictability out of the equation, and there's nothing to look forward to.

What sort of argument is that? Lack of knowledge makes world interesting so somehow there is a God? I don't follow the logic. And I would rather have the answer. It's the unknown that irritates me. And I don't think everything is predetermined. Even if we understood how this works, I still think the events will be random.
 
and what kind of logic is yours? Just because you dont get all the answers you want, there's no God?
 
By the way, what kind of God would God be if we could comprehend all his creation? And that's the point. Once you start comprehending, folks will start thinking they are as smart as Him. We cant have so many folks who're as smart as God AND God.LOL
 
Also, did you really mean to use the word "random"? If things are really random, then perhaps we shouldn't blame anyone for their inexusable behaviors. They're doing random stuff just because of all the randomness out there. LOL

Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

Joined: 16 May 2012

Posts: 13810

Posted: 08 October 2012 at 4:44am | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

 
no no, i am not the one spinning fantasies here, although i wish i could come up with a science fiction book or two like everyone elseLOL. I am simply pointing out how one's argument about the universe always existing is eerily similar to other arguments about God always existing. If we can make one statement based on no science you can come up with, others can make the other statement based on the very same lack of science.LOL

Again, please comprehend better. The argument of something always existing is the one of theists, not mine. Science doesn't still explain what happened before Big Band and therefore my stand is that we don't know. I merely pointed out a way that simplified THEIR theory NOT mine by eliminating God.


Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

 
also we can put big bang or big mac wherever/ whenever we want. Point is that something must have preceded it, unless we also want to say that the very concept of time (and therefore precedence) does not make sense before Big Bang. For some very strange reason, you want to get back to t=0 but want to ignore what came before. For me, the origins of the universe (if any) are key to questions regarding existence of God. Somehow you stop before we get to that point.
 

Yes, time didn't make sense in the case of singularity. How did the singularity came about? We don't know. Yes, I am also trying to search for origin of Universe. No, I will not entertain fantasies. LOL


Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

  
by the way, what's the big, ridiculous claim i made? Or did you just throw that in there for effect?LOL 

On one hand you say that our views are limiting and on the other hand you claim to know about an entity so powerful that he is beyond comprehension. Seems ridiculous and an oxymoron to me.

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Samraat_92

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