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If you believe in God, refute this! (Page 72)

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 9:58pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

Going by the same physics we have been swearing by, if we have a cause, we better have effect/ consequences, however distant in space-time those consequences might be. The effect might be non-linear. It might be sticky as in an elastic/ memory system, but effect there has to be. Defined as such, karma then makes more sense than not.

if we break the cause/ effect chain, then we can come up with anything. We can have a big bang without a first cause. We can have energy created out of nothing, a God who just came into Being without cause. These dont quite square with the science we know.

and good and bad are relative to one's conditioning and aspirations. We've had people who seemingly had it all, but that didnt stop them from being bored and doping themselves to oblivion.

Yes of course cause has effect. I hit someone, he gets hurt. That is the effect. It doesn't mean that suddenly hidden entities start conspiring against me to bring me to justice. I say something hurtful to somebody. That is the action. They feel bad. That is the effect. Now they might take revenge, which will be the effect of my actions, but there is no "God" bringing me to justice. And it is not a guaranteed system, it depends on what the person might like to do.

And you are saying yourself that good and bad are relative and not absolute. Which makes an objective Karma theory seem wrong.

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 10:01pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

it would be a pretty boring world if we knew it all, a robotic existence where all the mystery's been squeezed out. Part of the beauty of life is that we can only marvel at the enormity of it all. Maybe that's why it's been designed the way it has?

Maybe to you. I would like some answers. If there is a creator, he at least owed an introduction.

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Samraat_92

Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 10:10pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

i think one of the odd things here is that we are ready to accept that the universe always existed. Of course, that's a conjecture not rooted in any verifiable science, but if true that would be a neat way to dismiss the requirement for a God to have created anything. 

Who said that? We put Big Bang at t=0. We are not in a position to say what happened before that. I merely pointed out that theists are ready to believe God was not created and has always existed, which is odd as you noticed. So, if THEY are ready to believe that something can always exist, better apply it to the Universe which is there and we can observe it rather than an imaginary being of which there is no available data. I was improving their theory, I don't agree with it.


Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

on the other side, if we are ready to make that leap of faith regarding the universe always having existed, why cant we then believe that we have a God who created it all and that God always existed? Why do we require that someone had to have created God? If we can believe that the universe always existed, then why cant we believe that God always existed?

First read my reply for your first argument.
Occam's razor. Here one entity will simplify things because God doesn't add anything to the equation. We can simply apply the always existing property to Universe, which we know is there rather than an imaginary being. In this case, one will be simpler than two.


Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

i think one of the problems is we are accustomed to viewing the world from the prism of our own perceptions/ so-called common sense. But those same perceptions would have us think the sun revolves around the earth. Not quite right.

I don't think all science is "common sense" otherwise we would know it intuitively. And we can study the Universe with the senses we have been equipped. And no, it does not get you the license to spin fantasies. On one hand you claim that we have such limiting views, and on the other hand you make big, ridiculous claims which I can't understand how you came to know since our perspective is so limiting. Confused

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Samraat_92

Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 10:30pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

the other problem is that by definition if there's a God who created the universe (and the space-time to go with it), then God has to exist in higher dimensions than the space-time dimensions of our scientific methods. All the gobbledygook about observers and collapsing eigenstates will only get us to 4D explanations, nothing that can prove/ disprove existence of higher D Beings. It's like we are barking up the wrong tree thinking we can use a 2D camera picture to understand a 3D world.

But a dimension is always dependent on the lower dimensions. So, the being in 4D exists in all dimensions, not especially in 4D. You are saying that we can't see him in 3D as if he is only in 4D, which is not possible. For example, a cube. It is a 3D object. But does that mean it exists only in 3rd dimension? No. It exists in 1D as line, 2D as square, and 3D as cube. If you could remove a dimension, it will not be a cube anymore. Similarly if God is 4D, he will be perceivable in 3D also.

And another important thing. You cannot create a thing entirely of lower dimension. It's not possible. For example, we live in 3D, right? So, can you create a 2D or 1D object? No. Everything is made up of atoms, which are 3D. Even a thin paper has thickness. So, if we cannot create 2D objects in 3D, I think we can extrapolate that a being in 4D cannot create a 3D object.

K.Universe.

Goldie

K.Universe.

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 10:45pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

First read my reply for your first argument. Occam's razor.


I think the razor is so overused that it became blunt. Not to mention, by itself it proves nothing. As I mentioned before it's just a heuristic at best. IMO, it has limited use when confronted with the really Big questions

It is shaving off ideas all in the name of parsimony, which is subjective by the way, thereby providing a hideaway to some who can't answer the more complex questions. It is proving to be a skeptic's favorite recourse. Atheists as well.





Edited by K.Universe. - 07 October 2012 at 10:45pm

Summer3

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Summer3

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 10:55pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by Summer3


BTW our Mr. Freethinker does not believe in the Soul which means he sees himself as the body and upon death everything ends "The End"LOL
Personally I see the soul as actually ONE but it can appear as MANY. To experience the Oneness we must practise Oneness I think.

Yes, I do not believe in souls.

So, every being contains a soul but it is one? So, what happens when one dies? You break it and redistribute it amongst others?
They say the ONE appears as many; perhaps individuality is like bubbles on the waters whose fate is to rejoin the rest sooner or later.
Whatever it is I do love variety and multiplicity, or else it could be boring.

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Vintage.Wine

K.Universe.

Goldie

K.Universe.

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 11:06pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Summer3

They say the ONE appears as many


The One appears as many to who, chief?

The One appears as many to the One or the One appears as many to the many?


Freethinker112

IF-Sizzlerz

Freethinker112

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 11:28pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

I think the razor is so overused that it became blunt. Not to mention, by itself it proves nothing. As I mentioned before it's just a heuristic at best. IMO, it has limited use when confronted with the really Big questions

It is shaving off ideas all in the name of parsimony, which is subjective by the way, thereby providing a hideaway to some who can't answer the more complex questions. It is proving to be a skeptic's favorite recourse. Atheists as well.


Okay let's forget the razor. See it from a simply logical point. You say something can always exist. We observe that there is a Universe. We can apply the logic to it. And we have explanation for existence. Now you assume the existence of another being. You attach the property to that entity and have it create our world. But you have no data of this being. Now tell me what benefit does the second explanation offer? What more does the God bring in the explanation? Why prefer the second one?

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