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If you believe in God, refute this! (Page 71)

BirdieNumNum Senior Member
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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 12:59pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112


Seriously? You are confusing correlation with causation. I don't see nay karma in action. Good and bad happens to both good and bad people. I have seen good people in very bad conditions and bad people in very good conditions. So, your karma theory just doesn't hold water.

Going by the same physics we have been swearing by, if we have a cause, we better have effect/ consequences, however distant in space-time those consequences might be. The effect might be non-linear. It might be sticky as in an elastic/ memory system, but effect there has to be. Defined as such, karma then makes more sense than not.

if we break the cause/ effect chain, then we can come up with anything. We can have a big bang without a first cause. We can have energy created out of nothing, a God who just came into Being without cause. These dont quite square with the science we know.

and good and bad are relative to one's conditioning and aspirations. We've had people who seemingly had it all, but that didnt stop them from being bored and doping themselves to oblivion.


BirdieNumNum Senior Member
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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 1:05pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112


 If someone designed it for us, why not make every area habitable so that we can move freely around Universe.


it would be a pretty boring world if we knew it all, a robotic existence where all the mystery's been squeezed out. Part of the beauty of life is that we can only marvel at the enormity of it all. Maybe that's why it's been designed the way it has?


BirdieNumNum Senior Member
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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 1:13pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.


Is this a joke?! Sounds hilarious to me. A mathematical model so spectacularly successful for it's precision, the closest that science has come to a fundamental description of the nature of reality, a branch of Physics which started revolutionizing the scientific world in the first decade of the 20th century the roots of whose study go back to the 17th and 18th century is in it's infancy to you?! Incredible!



QM by itself is not a theory of everything. It's a model that just explains some of the particle interactions. But that's like saying that the correct model to fit two points is a straight line. Perhaps those points could also be fit by a curve. Till we have ToE, we cant be sure. And that's one reason folks have been trying to come up with a theory that unifies it all. So, i dont think it's quite the joke you thought it to be.
BirdieNumNum Senior Member
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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 1:27pm | IP Logged
i think one of the odd things here is that we are ready to accept that the universe always existed. Of course, that's a conjecture not rooted in any verifiable science, but if true that would be a neat way to dismiss the requirement for a God to have created anything. 

on the other side, if we are ready to make that leap of faith regarding the universe always having existed, why cant we then believe that we have a God who created it all and that God always existed? Why do we require that someone had to have created God? If we can believe that the universe always existed, then why cant we believe that God always existed?

i think one of the problems is we are accustomed to viewing the world from the prism of our own perceptions/ so-called common sense. But those same perceptions would have us think the sun revolves around the earth. Not quite right.
BirdieNumNum Senior Member
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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 1:28pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by -Xaffron-

For those who don't believe in God, good for you. For those who do, carry on.

Debates have an end. I don't see an end here. LOL

just like the universe and/ or just like God, debates have always existed and will never cease to exist.LOL
BirdieNumNum Senior Member
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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 1:39pm | IP Logged
the other problem is that by definition if there's a God who created the universe (and the space-time to go with it), then God has to exist in higher dimensions than the space-time dimensions of our scientific methods. All the gobbledygook about observers and collapsing eigenstates will only get us to 4D explanations, nothing that can prove/ disprove existence of higher D Beings. It's like we are barking up the wrong tree thinking we can use a 2D camera picture to understand a 3D world.
K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 4:38pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

Going by the same physics we have been swearing by, if we have a cause, we better have effect/ consequences, however distant in space-time those consequences might be. The effect might be non-linear. It might be sticky as in an elastic/ memory system, but effect there has to be. Defined as such, karma then makes more sense than not.

if we break the cause/ effect chain, then we can come up with anything. We can have a big bang without a first cause. We can have energy created out of nothing, a God who just came into Being without cause. These dont quite square with the science we know.


This may sound a little Cuckoo to you but retrocausality is permissible within the known laws of nature. A real temporal order is not terribly important; a symmetrical treatment of time which allows causal movement in two directions (past to future, future to past) could be adopted, provided of course we have empirical evidence courtesy John Cramer's experiments in this area that could lend credence to the transactional interpretation of quantum mechanics.

When you say that it doesn't square with the science we know, you were probably referring to classical mechanics and what followed classical mechanics such as general relativity where all causal processes must propagate at less than or equal to the speed of light. Entangled particles already proved that wrong where "communication" instantaneously happened between the entangled particles that was faster than light; no spooky action at a distance here.

Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

it would be a pretty boring world if we knew it all, a robotic existence where all the mystery's been squeezed out. Part of the beauty of life is that we can only marvel at the enormity of it all. Maybe that's why it's been designed the way it has?


I don't know about you but even a pulse racing thriller movie full of twists and turns should finally reveal the "killer", if there is one, at the end of two hours. Otherwise, I would get up and go.

Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

QM by itself is not a theory of everything. It's a model that just explains some of the particle interactions. But that's like saying that the correct model to fit two points is a straight line. Perhaps those points could also be fit by a curve. Till we have ToE, we cant be sure. And that's one reason folks have been trying to come up with a theory that unifies it all. So, i dont think it's quite the joke you thought it to be.


Freethinker thought QM was in it's infancy. I thought he was joking. That's pretty much it.

Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

i think one of the odd things here is that we are ready to accept that the universe always existed. Of course, that's a conjecture not rooted in any verifiable science, but if true that would be a neat way to dismiss the requirement for a God to have created anything.

on the other side, if we are ready to make that leap of faith regarding the universe always having existed, why cant we then believe that we have a God who created it all and that God always existed? Why do we require that someone had to have created God? If we can believe that the universe always existed, then why cant we believe that God always existed?


The word always is an indeterminate. What we know had a beginning. What we don't know before the beginning ends up in a singularity due to the constraints imposed on us by the speed of light and the implications that this speed of light has when probing time scales smaller than a Planck time, when going backwards in time.

Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

i think one of the problems is we are accustomed to viewing the world from the prism of our own perceptions/ so-called common sense. But those same perceptions would have us think the sun revolves around the earth. Not quite right.


Intuition has its advantages but science doesn't always rely on intuition when establishing facts so I am not sure why you would think that we are going by perceptions / common sense when viewing the world. Matter of fact, quantum mechanics is completely counter-intuitive but it's already been acknowledged as the only field of study that describes reality accurately.

Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

the other problem is that by definition if there's a God who created the universe (and the space-time to go with it), then God has to exist in higher dimensions than the space-time dimensions of our scientific methods. All the gobbledygook about observers and collapsing eigenstates will only get us to 4D explanations, nothing that can prove/ disprove existence of higher D Beings. It's like we are barking up the wrong tree thinking we can use a 2D camera picture to understand a 3D world.


Whether we can visualize additional dimensions are not, if the Math supports it, they are there, otherwise not. We will see where the Superstring theory takes us; till it succeeds in harmonizing general relativity and quantum mechanics, we will have to live the "gobbledygook" of both, in the macro world and the micro world.

Vintage.Wine Goldie
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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 9:45pm | IP Logged
 
Originally posted by Freethinker112

[QUOTE=Vintage.Wine]

You make two contradictions.
First, people say that it is the soul that makes you "you", that you are not the body. And now you are saying that soul doesn't have any intelligence or choice or memories. Everything is done by brain. That means that brain is the "me", if it is the one doing everything. So, that implies that body is what makes me "me" not soul.
Second one is that on one hand you say that souls doesn't have intelligence and it doesn't make decisions. And on the second hand you say that it gets karma attached to it. Now that is a stupid system, isn't it? You are attaching punishments or rewards to the thing that didn't do anything.

Originally posted by Vintage.Wine



Again, I just doesn't understand how you make so big claims and then say that you know nothing about it. Seems oxymoron to me. LOL If soul is not doing anything, what is the point? You yourself are saying that everything is done by the physical self. And also that you don't have any proof of soul. So you don't have proof of something which there isn't a use of. Seems to me that it points out that the thing doesn't exist.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine



What about cloning? We make a new organism that is living. So does that mean we can create souls? Or the new being is alive without a soul? How do you explain it? Cloning is gonna make game tough for you lot, isn't it? LOL


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine



Science doesn't just says so, it has proved so. And if it is energy, then it should be detectable. Show me some detection. And how exactly that energy gets transferred to poeple and out of them? And if it just gives matter life, why doesn't a rock becomes alive when the energy passes through it?


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine



Science is not a "thing" that it will exist. It's just a method that we use to study about things. So, yeah that method was always there and can be used by anyone, not necessarily humans. Whether the Universe is finite or infinite is still an open question. What science says that it has no edge, there is no boundary to the Universe. Why? Because current knowledge shows so. If you want, you can study the maths behind it.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine




Well, I asked you a question when you gave a similar reply. I see you didn't answer that. So, I will ask again. 
"And time isn't some Universal clock that ticks that you can restart. We can't even say exactly what time is. Can you even measure time without motion? If everything in Universe came to a standstill will time exist?"


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine




Infinity + 100 = Infinity
Infinity * 2 = Infinity.
OK?
You seemed to imply that a point exploded like a bomb and dispersed material. Which was not what happened. 


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

 


We treat it as a conceptual thing to keep track of motion. We still can't say if it objectively exists or not. 


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine




Current model points to a heat death. Universe will cool as it will expand and at some point the temperature will become so low that no work will be possible. I don't think this situation will cause Big Bang.
But how do you know time is passing if nothing moves. Time and motion are very much related.

Originally posted by Vintage.Wine



What does "energy which his the source of all energies" mean? Confused  There is no "source of energy" that lasts forever. All energy lasts forever, they just change form. So, I don't know where do you get the idea of source from. How all this came to be is another topic which we don't know. We don't know if there was a source, so we have not reached the point of naming it. 



You make two contradictions.
First, people say that it is the soul that makes you "you" <<<<   I'm free to contradict or concur with people as I ain't representing their point of view. I'm looking at everything in a renewed way with my own perspective and vision and I'm open to garner my clues outta all branches of knowledge indiscriminately.  . 

Everything is done by brain. That means that brain is the "me", if it is the one doing everything. So, that implies that body is what makes me "me" not soul. <<<< Okay so let's assume the Brain is you = Your soulless body ..Then why can't you choose NEVER to DIE ? I know everyone wants to go to the heavens ..But None wants to die. So why can't your brain keep powering your diseased body perpetually?  Are you trying to suggest that Body needs no energy peculiar to it's mechanism which is pretty complex? Unlike those Battery powered Wall mart toys we buy ..The body has a MIND which can think ...  Does science believe in the existence of the Mind ? Or does it simply assumes that it exists on the basis of one's THOUGHTS  and choose to believe that the MIND created them? Sounds pretty crude and conceptual again .. Body and Soul together make you a YOU ...


Now that is a stupid system, isn't it? You are attaching punishments or rewards to the thing that didn't do anything. <<<<  Punishment ? Karma isn't the same as PUNISHMENT or a REWARD ..Its the RECORD / LOG of one's life encoded and embedded in the soul that guides it through it's further journey ...Now here we have to resort to the words written 1000s of years ago ..which describe the Soul    "  Nainam Chhindanti Shastrani, Nainam Dahati Pavakah, Na Chhainam Kledyantyapo,Na Shoshyati marutah"   <<< Its something that's immortal ..that can't be burnt by the fire, made wet by the water , Dried by the wind, pierced by the weapons ... Which in turn means an Energy ..This description was written / known even before the science defined the energy.

Again, I just doesn't understand how you make so big claims and then say that you know nothing about it. Seems oxymoron to me.  <<<<   Science makes even bigger claims about the Big Bang that it only assumes to have happened ..It defines the beginning of the TIME ..The existence of something the science ain't sure about. but still measures it.  Science acknowledges existence of thoughts, The numbers ...like  ZERO = 0 <<< Which itself something that's equal to nothing LOL  So science  chooses to assume a few things and declines to accept other such things that can only be reckoned according to its own choice and convenience ..  They accept the existence of Gravity ..Something that's only conceptual and be felt but can't be seen .Much like the human who is ALIVE = Body that has a SOUL in it .. Which can be felt ..LOL What keeps your body functioning when your brain becomes unconscious? You are trying to say you are the power behind your existence..And you ll end yourself one day at your own choice and discretion ..WTH LOL Its the same as YOU Claiming to be Your OWN DAD LOL  <<<<

 I don't have a proof of SOUL ? I have a proof ..It's YOU and ME ..you the BODY in co ordination with your brains that is typing here cause its powered adequately by the SOUL ..You are the proof of Soul's existence ..And you are declining to reckon yourself.. LOL


What about cloning? We make a new organism that is living. So does that mean we can create souls? Or the new being is alive witho? ut a soul? How do you explain it? Cloning is gonna make game tough for you lot, isn't itLOL   <<<<<  Hahaha ..So you are admitting here that by cloning you can create a moving object without needing any energy ? LOL Thereby contradicting the science that energy can't be created ..You are creator here ...LOL  Well what makes ya assume the SOUL can't enter a cloned body ?  How do we CREATE BABIES ? We carry out the rituals commonly known as the SEX thats required to make the babies ..A process that has existed even before you and I had existed let aside Cloning which is NEW..
LOL  ..You are not creating the SOUL ..you are creating an object that can have a soul in it ..LOL
 

And if it is energy, then it should be detectable.
Show me some detection. And how exactly that energy gets transferred to poeple and out of them? And if it just gives matter life, why doesn't a rock becomes alive when the energy 
<<<<<<<   Energy can be FELT too LOL ..You are not detectable to my FIVE senses ...I can't smell ya right now , Touch , See or hear ya ..You exist because what you type here with the same ID exists ... LOL  I won't decline to accept your existence cause I can't see or hear you .. A rock can't move cause it doesn't have parts that ll help it to move ...As I said earlier on ..SOUL doesn't choose such objects to enter into..  Plastic can be molded into a TOY that can be powered and RUN by Electricity ..It can be Switched on and back ON ...What's powering you ? Where is your SWITCH  ? LOL You refuse to accept a concept but you are not ready to invalidate or prove that wrong. You yourself have stated that the UNKNOWN exists ..So let's name that Unknown .. GOD is not a magician as portrayed by a few ..Its sheer energy ..which endlessly keeps transforming in other energies .which after reaching a a stipulated level of Karma transforms back into it's original form ...The original energy ...The Process called as the MOKSHA ..LOL



Science is not a "thing" that it will exist. It's just a method that we use to study about things. So, yeah that method was always there and can be used by anyone, not necessarily humans. Whether the Universe is finite or infinite is still an open question. What science says that it has no edge, there is no boundary to the Universe. Why? Because current knowledge shows so. If you want, you can study the maths behind it.  <<<<  Ahahaha LOL  ..Cough Cough ! ..  Yeah NOT a THING =  NOTHING LOL  ...Science as in it's theories and laws always existed in a form of a method ? Then All the Claims of inventions were fake LOL And what are we waiting for ..The Method even to STOP us from dying must exist ..The TIME Machine too should exist ..I mean a method to build that ...So why not travel back in time and visit the big bang?  and exist even before that ? LOL We can't go on ridiculing other theories cause they are beyond the scope of science.. And then science chooses to rely upon Assumptions ..that the UNIVERSE is Infinite ...Current knowledge? Whats a current knowledge ? If all methods existed forever at the same time ? LOL .. What is the Math formula that established the fact that the UNIVERSE is infinite?

Look I would continue to call that UNKNOWN as the GOD until such time when everyone including  YOU and me reckon it's existence..Yay! That's the name I have chosen for that Unknown ..LOL


Can you even measure time without motion? If everything in Universe came to a standstill will time exist?"  <<<<   If science can bring everything to a halt ..Time too would halt LOL Time is a concept ..to reckon the events ..Its not an object like you and me ..That can be SEEN . its as occult but existing as the SOUL which is a part of a greater energy ..ie The God LOL ..TIME will halt for your body.. the moment you cease to be the part of this world It ll still exist for those who are alive ..If time can exist when one thing stops to function / move ..it sure can exist when everything stops moving ...LOL Is time dependent on the motion ? Can the either of the true be derived from each other by some scientific method ? LOL 


Infinity + 100 = Infinity
Infinity * 2 = Infinity.
OK?

^^^^^^^^^    Yeah Okay LOL  Now what is  INFINITY X ZERO ?  INFINITY Multiplied of ZERO that is LOL Eh ? ZERO ? So infinity becomes zero then ? Yehahahaha LOL  Alright What is ZERO / INFINITY ? LOL
 
You seemed to imply that a point exploded like a bomb and dispersed material. Which was not what happened.  <<<< I don't remember having implied so ..Cause I don't know exactly what happened ..Even science relies on assumptions ..


Current model points to a heat death. Universe will cool as it will expand and at some point the temperature will become so low that no work will be possible  <<<<  Yeah ..So science admits that everything would come to a standstill ..and become cactus ..That's when the times too should stop ? LOL Cause there ll be no motion ...As stated earlier by you ..

The cooling off ..would take place...The things / the material would accumulate ..The state might last for billions of years ..The cold material that  the universe is would then contract ..The contraction in itself is a motion ..It ll lead to another atomic , molecular reaction that ll trigger a chain action ..That might lead to another Big Bang ...Everything is  based on assumptions and as rightly pointed out by you ..on current knowledge ...which is not ripened or reached a point of saturation / maturity ...


But how do you know time is passing if nothing moves. Time and motion are very much related.     <<<< That's the whole point of argument ...HOW do I know ? that the time is passing / moving ? It would move regardless of me knowing that ...If I die ..The time won't stop ..If everyone dies the time won't stop ..It doesn't depend on our consciousness..We are only having two reference points ..A. The Big Bang ..we assume the time started with that  B. When the universe ends ...( And we the humans might end much before the Universe does LOL ) we say the time would halt there ...All assumptions ..We can assume the existence ..Even the beginning and the End of time ..something that can't be sensed ...but we don't acknowledge that there are many sources of energies that are active and working that we can't sense right now ..This is darn too strange LOL


What does "energy which his the source of all energies" mean? Confused  There is no "source of energy" that lasts forever. All energy lasts forever, they just change form.
  << So are you saying that the energies were transformed without a pre existing source?  Can your windmill's blades rotate without the wind ? to generate electricity ? Where did the energy come from ? Why can't we assume ONE energy can transform into different kind of energies ? A source must exist if the energy can't be created ..And why can't a source of energy last forever ? If you believe in INFINITY  something that has NO END  to IT ...Lets resort to that concept to define our INFINITE , ETERNAL source of energy ..And Name it the way we want ... GOD / PARMATMA / ALLAH Well there are a million names .. All those people of different religions that believe in the GOD can't be fooled by someone and tricked into believing such things LOL  I would stop believing in a greater source of energy that transforms into multiple forms of energy if you persuade me that all energies existed separately which is not true ..unless established as a fact with a proof if we insist on proving everything that is. And refuse to admit the existence of things that we can't prove ..LOL  I have seen a GHOST with my very eyes ..and I'm darn too sure that I was not drunk , Drugged, Hallucinating, Under the effect of anesthesia or Possessed at that time..I'm sure I saw that something which was beyond my own belief ...LOL 

To be continued ...  Evil Smile 

LOL


PS: The text in blue is written by you which I have used as the reference pint of my contention ..


 

 

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