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If you believe in God, refute this! (Page 70)

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 05 October 2012 at 9:34pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


 Freethinka Tongue  Bonzer !! .
@ Bold 1:  Why does physical damage kill us
..<<< This question is thought provoking and we might need to resort to analogies to answer that correctly ..Tell me this ..Why do you change your scruffy, worn out clothes ? You can still use em...You change them cause of two reasons .You need to look more presentable with a new spiffed outfit..Those old clothes are now useless for you ... There is a divine mechanism here ..A Body which is not functioning properly ..is the same as the worn out clothes...Like your buy new ones .( Some even seal em..Cough cough !  LOLthe soul as an energy abandons such diseased body and looks for a all new home ..Which means a newer body that can function well ...The memories ain't carried over ..They are lost too .Its a all new beginning of a fresh new life ... 'Vasansi jirnani yatha vihaya navani grihnati naroparani, tatha sharirani vihaya jirnani anyani samyati navani dehi'

I am tired of this analogy. I CAN wear and old cloth if I like which shows it's me who is powerful with a choice. Can a soul power a damaged body if it wants? No. That means there is no such powerful thing. If the body is what is functioning, and the person can't do anything without the body, where does soul figure in and what is its function?

And there is another fault with your logic. If you say that the soul provides us consciousness and is the thing that goes away when we die, it should remember the conscious experience. If it was the soul that was doing all the thinking and making sense of it all, it should remember the memories.

And how exactly does it enter and leave? And how does it provide life? Show me the exact place where it resides and the mechanism behind it providing life.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


 @ Bold 2:  That doesn't happen...But for the sake of debate let's assume it does..Even then no one knows how many souls are there..In a pre birth state ...Cause the theory is all Souls are a part of a source of mightier energy which can release infinite number of souls ...Aatma and Paramatma = The God ..The God as a concept behind all source of energy ...Not all energy from which has been released as souls ...So N number of souls can exist that ll support life not just on the earth but elsewhere to ...the places not known to humans...The civilizations in newer worlds ..Micro organism ...which remains unexplored ... 

Yes, it was a hypothetical case and it would be pretty stupid to say that children won't be born. Again, you said yourself that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So, how can he create infinite souls? The number of souls has to be fixed. Which is illogical.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

@ Bold 3:  I guess we should try and think more freely here  LOL.and not confine ourselves to the existing scientific knowledge and contort our view / imagination if we understand that science is yet not matured enough to understand many things ...No one from ancient times woulda believed we can fly across the continents within a matter of hours. But we do .. Now to the very important statement ..." Time didn't exist before the Big Bang' <<<<<<< LOL How could this be ?We might say we started measuring the time as a unit after that ...With that event as a starting point ...But actually that even wasn't the staring point ..How did big bang happen if nothing existed before that ? BIG BANG that released enormous amount of Gas and other Cosmic particles that engendered the cosmic bodies musta been caused as a result of a Pre Existing material ..Material existed which in turn means there was Time in which that material existed ...What will happen when the universe ends? All the stars die off ? They become ..Supernovas / Hyper novas and run outta energy after emitting that? SUN would die to ..so shall the biggest ever known Star VY in the constellation Canis Major ..which is a billion times bigger than the SUN and dispels energy at a massive rate ..It emits the same amount of energy each minute that the SUN emits in years .. he Universe would end ..But as the rule the energy can't be destroyed .It will Remain ..Another BIG BANG would happen and another worlds would float ..No this doesn't mean the times restarted itself..We as human assigned that a starting point far fetched back in time till  the first event that we know of. 

So, since we don't know, we should stop thinking scientifically and just shoot out theories? I am sorry but that doesn't cut it for me. And no. You may wanna read on Big Bang. Time was created simultaneously with Space during Big Bang.

And you have another common misconception of Big Bang. There wasn't some "point" with "blank space" around which exploded and "released Gas and particles". Everything that is present in the current Universe was there but confined in a small space. And there was no explosion of a point, the Bang took place throughout all space simultaneously. So, yes the Bang took place where you are sitting right now. A finite point can't blow up to an infinite. The universe was infinite then too, just many times smaller than current Universe.

What exactly do you mean by end of Universe. We can't exactly predict the future, you know. We can't exactly say another Big Bang would happen. It might have possible if the Universe started collapsing and became small again. But it is currently expanding and the rate of expansion is accelerating.

And time isn't some Universal clock that ticks that you can restart. We can't even say exactly what time is. Can you even measure time without motion? If everything in Universe acme to a standstill will time exist?


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

 
 As you very rightly pointed out that the unknown exists ..That unknown who set those rules...that created the cosmic material  ..That unknown who has always existed...The same unknown who we call the GOD ..who is beyond our mundane senses and platonic scope...And we would do so until we prove otherwise..

Yes unknown exists. No, there is no evidence that unknown set some rules. No, we cannot say whether the unknown created cosmic material or both came simultaneously or whether they have existed forever. And since we don't even know what that unknown is, how can you attach attributes to it that it created things and so and so? And it is up to you to prove that the unknown did this things and we won't believe in it until you do so.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


@ Bold4:  Sure ...that is the Ultraviolet spectrum ..You musta noticed that a few  creatures like CATS abruptly gaze somewhere ...which we believe is nowhere .Cause nothing can be seen with our eyes at the place they look at ...Why ? Cause Cats can see ultraviolet objects...which is beyond the color spectrum that the humans can see. The photos snapped with such cameras when someone dies have shown shapes and images unidentifiable to us..Which some consider to be the souls or some outer / inner layers of that complex energy ..Its simple ..The soul would leave the diseased body and enter another body which is fit to live ...The procedure of that is occult ...But that's the only belief we can resort to unless we contradict the science and start believing that the energy was Created ..and that it didn't exist permanently , timelessly ..

Really? You sure it is ultraviolet spectrum? So, considering so many people die everyday, just take a snap and show me the soul. It shouldn't be difficult right? Except that it isn't true and you can't.

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Vintage.Wine

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The-Voice

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Posted: 05 October 2012 at 11:41pm | IP Logged
For those who don't believe in God, good for you. For those who do, carry on.

Debates have an end. I don't see an end here. LOL

Freethinker112

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Posted: 06 October 2012 at 1:18am | IP Logged
Originally posted by -Xaffron-

For those who don't believe in God, good for you. For those who do, carry on.

Debates have an end. I don't see an end here. LOL

Well, then debate whether there is an end to this debate. LOL

zorrro

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Posted: 06 October 2012 at 3:10am | IP Logged

Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by zorrro

May be and may be not . How am I supposed to know that? But I dont see why a designer should be restricted in his designings.

Then you should not be making claims about something you don't know. How do you know there is a creator?

We see the creation around us therefore the notion of a creator who created it. When we see the creator we can think about his creator .

Originally posted by zorrro

I'm sorry I  dont get the logic here .   If you design  vehicles for transport, you could design a three wheeler, a two wheeler or a no wheeler if you like.  A hovercraft, a speed boat and so on.

Multiple types of wheels for multiple vehicles. But since there is no life form near us, why not give us the whole area?

Who is stopping you from taking over the area around you.  Go ahead by all means. You make a car and leave it to go around the whole area. its free to be driven over smooth  land or bumpy roads as you like. You could also drive off a cliff if so inclined. If the car cannot fly does it mean that it wasnt designed but sprung up by random assembly ! LOL

Originally posted by zorrro

Not necessarily. You could always improvise on the design. 

Since an all knowing being knows everything, there isn't room for improvement.

Here improvement is being seen from a human point of view which may not necessarily be an improvement  from a broader view.

Originally posted by zorrro

Something mysterious can still exist and be unknown or cant it ?

Yes, but since it is unknown you can't say what it is.

But you can always speculate .We donot know whether the universe will continue to accelerate or will it rip off or will it crunch back. That hasnt stopped the theories of the big rip off and big crunch Tongue

 

Originally posted by zorrro

There is no end to such paradoxes. Lets see one for example: "You think that motion is infinitely divisible? Then it follows that nothing moves!" So should we conclude that nothing moves?

 

Zeno's paradox can be explained. 1/2+1/4+1/8+...=1. The series is infinite but it converges to a finite sum.

Is that a pointer by any chance  to series of infinite manifestations converging to one manifestor? Wink

Originally posted by zorrro

 Homo sapiens is just a conventional label.  We have a fair understanding of biology but which of it would you call "you" Which tissue, which cell,... all cells?  They keep altering, dying and renewing.  Consciousness is a mystery  in itself.  So is it wrong to say that it exists?

Yes, consciousness is a mystery. But we are actually experiencing it so we know that it is.

You keep saying 'WE' experiencing but can you explain what exactly is the we that experiences  and where we are experiencing and how  exactly is the we that experiences  consciousness?  Or could it also be that it is the consciousness that experiences us?  If we do not know the hows and whys and where,  it means that we have based  it on our beliefs.  Similarly if a person feels that by praying to stone idol, holy book  or whatever ... his wishes get  manifested  he may call it God or word of God or whatever. Unless someone starts harming others  on the basis of that  belief I really wouldnt bother. Smile

 

Vintage.Wine

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Vintage.Wine

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Posted: 06 October 2012 at 6:48am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by Vintage.Wine




I am tired of this analogy. I CAN wear and old cloth if I like which shows it's me who is powerful with a choice. Can a soul power a damaged body if it wants? No. That means there is no such powerful thing. If the body is what is functioning, and the person can't do anything without the body, where does soul figure in and what is its function?

And there is another fault with your logic. If you say that the soul provides us consciousness and is the thing that goes away when we die, it should remember the conscious experience. If it was the soul that was doing all the thinking and making sense of it all, it should remember the memories.

And how exactly does it enter and leave? And how does it provide life? Show me the exact place where it resides and the mechanism behind it providing life.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


 . 

Yes, it was a hypothetical case and it would be pretty stupid to say that children won't be born. Again, you said yourself that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So, how can he create infinite souls? The number of souls has to be fixed. Which is illogical.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine



So, since we don't know, we should stop thinking scientifically and just shoot out theories? I am sorry but that doesn't cut it for me. And no. You may wanna read on Big Bang. Time was created simultaneously with Space during Big Bang.

And you have another common misconception of Big Bang. There wasn't some "point" with "blank space" around which exploded and "released Gas and particles". Everything that is present in the current Universe was there but confined in a small space. And there was no explosion of a point, the Bang took place throughout all space simultaneously. So, yes the Bang took place where you are sitting right now. A finite point can't blow up to an infinite. The universe was infinite then too, just many times smaller than current Universe.

What exactly do you mean by end of Universe. We can't exactly predict the future, you know. We can't exactly say another Big Bang would happen. It might have possible if the Universe started collapsing and became small again. But it is currently expanding and the rate of expansion is accelerating.

And time isn't some Universal clock that ticks that you can restart. We can't even say exactly what time is. Can you even measure time without motion? If everything in Universe acme to a standstill will time exist?


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

 


Yes unknown exists. No, there is no evidence that unknown set some rules. No, we cannot say whether the unknown created cosmic material or both came simultaneously or whether they have existed forever. And since we don't even know what that unknown is, how can you attach attributes to it that it created things and so and so? And it is up to you to prove that the unknown did this things and we won't believe in it until you do so.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine




Really? You sure it is ultraviolet spectrum? So, considering so many people die everyday, just take a snap and show me the soul. It shouldn't be difficult right? Except that it isn't true and you can't.


Alright ..Alright LOL   let me answer your points to the best of my sloshed ability LOL

@ Bold1:  Soul WANTS nothing  ...Much like Electricity as an Energy wants nothing ..If you the creator of that route that through a proper channel it ll brighten the lamps ..make your machines rumble... Soul doesn't have its own intelligence or choice ..If it had everyone would be born as the RICHEST / happiest person in the world... Its the Karma that gets attached to the soul at the end of its journey through one life ..Much like a DNA / RNA signature is attached to a Virus particle in a persons body ... Soul leaves the diseased body ..it doesn't resurrect that .. A person can't do anything without a body that has no soul in it ...

Soul provides energy for the person's brains along with the other body parts to gain consciousness. Memories are stored in one's brain cells ..We know that ..Soul doesn't carry and memories to the next life ...Cause that is the whole point behind the concept of death. Death is not only physical, it wipes out the memories too. So that the soul can begin its new journey as another person who knows nothing about the world. Not even their own identity until the others introduce them to themselves LOL

 I had told ya earlier on ..How exactly the soul leaves  the body or how it enters another is not known. Not know at least to me. I don't think a documented material evidence to such process exists.

 Its like ..Sound as the energy that a deaf person can't reckon ..We don't have a sense nuff to reckon the existence of the soul with the senses we currently have. We have to leave certain things to imagination and believe in them unless you succeed in proving them wrong. Human's can create most organs artificially ..They can create a body ..But can't power that to life ..LIFE << is the word here ..Cause they don't know to transform the existing known energies to the energy that can power the bodies..

.@ Bold 2:  I never said that the energy can't be created or destroyed .LOL Science says so ...LOL ...Assuming that its true ..my contention still doesn't get invalidated ..Cause of the same known facts ..See .the SUN emits enormous energy that helps engender the environment suitable to support the life on earth ...That energy can be calculated in measurable units / day .. / minute etc...SUN would continue to emit the energy until it runs outta that. ...Consider a HUGE source of energy ...as huge as the infinity that emits the energy that it already has ( Not created ) eternally. ie : The soul ...So there is every possibility that there could be infinite souls..that ll keep fostering life in many bodies..until the Major source of that = The GOD runs outta that .. Which will be NEVER. 

@ Bold 3:  Tell me this ..Did science exist before itself? ...Was science always present ? NO ..It was first imagined and then established as theories and rules.. There are many things beyond the reach of science and the science still assumes them as the facts ..like for instance how can science say that the UNIVERSE is INFINITE ? ..What is the proof that science has that the UNIVERSE has no boundaries ? Or there is something that's even beyond the UNIVERSE?  Science assumes many things ...Billions of things ..that it can't establish as facts..So why are  other branches of knowledge not allowed to assume ?   Let the science prove those assumptions wrong scientifically ...and the would stop assuming such things ..Cause their system doesn't rely upon science. Its indigenous and autonomous.

 Haha That's why I told ya we must think freely ..The Big Bang theory states the times started with the Big Bang ...But again do they have the proof that it didn't exist before that? That the cosmic material existed in a timeless era?  We are not debating over what the theory has said ..We are trying to think even beyond that ...

@ Bold 4:  How can infinite be smaller than something ? Big smile I said exactly the thing you stated before ..All the material was present at the time of the Big bang ..and was confined to a smaller area in Infinite space ...Which then blasted off to dispel the material in there ..
 
@ Bold 5:  We can't see / say what time is.. Still we believe in its creation and continuous forward motion ...But we don't believe in another something that we can't see. The soul.  What proof do we have that the time exists even now? Its conceptual ..and still we calculate that. It can restart cause it is measured by humans ..from the point of their convenience ...

Universe would certainly end ..as all the STARS are continuously shedding the energy ..They will all die off in many million years from now ..and a situation would then be suitable for another Big Bang ..from where the time would restart  .. .Big bang itself is a concept ..We don't have a material proof of that which can appeal to our minds ..We have left many things for assumptions even there ... Time and motion can't be related ..Motion might depend on time ..But time can't depend on the motions ..Things can lie cactus for billions of years ..which again signifies a time period ..

@ Bold 6:  Science itself admits that the energy existed forever ..as it can't be created ..and we know energy in many forms and transform that .we believe that energy that can't be created has existed even before the times if you insist that time started at the big bang that is ...So that Energy which is the source of all energies which exists eternally must be given a name. We call that The GOD ...Like you call Hydrogen the Hydrogen ..out of your choice ...So we assign a  name to that phenomenal Source of energy which lasts forever ... We don't know what that Unknown is ..But we know and agree that the unknown exists ..Right ? So let's call that unknown the GOD .. But if you are not comfortable with that name ..you can call allude to that as something else..Even YOU or ME LOL I don't mind that .. LOL  But people might ...Hahaha ..What crazy people we have in this world ..

Over to you .. Phew !! ...  LOL

 ( A catch 22 situation it is .. LOL )




K.Universe.

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Posted: 06 October 2012 at 6:24pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

I don't think the detector was interacting with the electrons; it was only setup for detecting the electrons. I will read up more on electron detectors but my understanding is that they are sophisticated enough so as not to cause any disturbances.


What we have here is the measurement problem. 

The particles in the observed system (in this case electrons) are in a superposition of states described by the wave function; we know that. What we have to realize is that at the same time even the observer, be it a human or a sophisticated particle detector such as a Geiger counter, is also in a superposition of states described by the wave function. In essence what we have is a universe where the observer (conscious or otherwise) and the observed are part-of the same system which makes the "cut-off" line between observer and observed arbitrary in that there is no principled way you could make the cut. The question then becomes: where do you draw the line?

You could consider a subatomic particle (such as an electron or a photon) that is in a superposition of states to be the observed system and a human to be the measurer/observer and take a Geiger counter to measure the subatomic particle but simultaneously you could also consider the "subatomic particle - human" as one system that is in a superposition of states, and take a Geiger counter to measure/observe the "subatomic particle - human" system. So there is this chain of correlated interactions called von-Neumann chain going from elementary particles to human beings and we have to decide arbitrarily where to cut off the chain. Essentially everything is interacting with everything else so regardless of where you cut the chain, you would get the same experimental results.

So who/what exactly causes the wave collapse is what we need to understand assuming some part of the wave is actually collapsed.


Freethinker112

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 2:16am | IP Logged
Originally posted by zorrro

We see the creation around us therefore the notion of a creator who created it. When we see the creator we can think about his creator .

Correction, we see things around us. Whether or not they are a creation of a conscious entity is something we don't know. 
 

Originally posted by zorrro

Who is stopping you from taking over the area around you.  Go ahead by all means. You make a car and leave it to go around the whole area. its free to be driven over smooth  land or bumpy roads as you like. You could also drive off a cliff if so inclined. If the car cannot fly does it mean that it wasnt designed but sprung up by random assembly ! LOL

If we are to survive in neighboring areas, we need to create artificial environment for our survival. Which goes to show that it WASN'T designed for us.


Originally posted by zorrro

Here improvement is being seen from a human point of view which may not necessarily be an improvement  from a broader view.

Making changes for better is called improvement, from whatever view you like to see. If an all knowing being created us, he would create us perfect for the first time ad won't need to tweak things later. Evolution itself implies a non perfect design. Which shows we are adapting to the environment not that it is all designed.


Originally posted by zorrro

But you can always speculate .We donot know whether the universe will continue to accelerate or will it rip off or will it crunch back. That hasnt stopped the theories of the big rip off and big crunch Tongue

Yes, you can speculate and hypothesize. But if you cannot prove it, the idea is discarded. It is a mere imagination, which we can't say is true.

We have models that make predictions. And many predictions of Big Bang are found to be agreeing with that we observe. That's why it is the accepted model. And as I have said it before, if you think something is wrong with it, you are always free to propose a better model. Tongue


Originally posted by zorrro

Is that a pointer by any chance  to series of infinite manifestations converging to one manifestor? Wink

It just means that a finite number can be divided into infinite parts. And it definitely doesn't give you one manifestor. I could add 1 to that series and it will result in two, although the number of terms being added would still be infinite.


Originally posted by zorrro

You keep saying 'WE' experiencing but can you explain what exactly is the we that experiences  and where we are experiencing and how  exactly is the we that experiences  consciousness?  Or could it also be that it is the consciousness that experiences us?  If we do not know the hows and whys and where,  it means that we have based  it on our beliefs.  Similarly if a person feels that by praying to stone idol, holy book  or whatever ... his wishes get  manifested  he may call it God or word of God or whatever. Unless someone starts harming others  on the basis of that  belief I really wouldnt bother. Smile

What we are experience, the ability to think and feel, is what we call consciousness. No, we don't have an exact definition or list of properties and we still don't know what causes it. That's why it is still a mystery. And no, we know that it is there because we are experiencing it. But if someone tries to explain the hows, whys, and wheres without any evidence, that will be basing things on beliefs.

As I have said before, I don't bother much in real life but this is Debate Mansion and we are just discussing it here. You can bother with nothing but then what's the point of DM?

Freethinker112

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Posted: 07 October 2012 at 3:18am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


@ Bold1:  Soul WANTS nothing  ...Much like Electricity as an Energy wants nothing ..If you the creator of that route that through a proper channel it ll brighten the lamps ..make your machines rumble... Soul doesn't have its own intelligence or choice ..If it had everyone would be born as the RICHEST / happiest person in the world... Its the Karma that gets attached to the soul at the end of its journey through one life ..Much like a DNA / RNA signature is attached to a Virus particle in a persons body ... Soul leaves the diseased body ..it doesn't resurrect that .. A person can't do anything without a body that has no soul in it ...

You make two contradictions.
First, people say that it is the soul that makes you "you", that you are not the body. And now you are saying that soul doesn't have any intelligence or choice or memories. Everything is done by brain. That means that brain is the "me", if it is the one doing everything. So, that implies that body is what makes me "me" not soul.
Second one is that on one hand you say that souls doesn't have intelligence and it doesn't make decisions. And on the second hand you say that it gets karma attached to it. Now that is a stupid system, isn't it? You are attaching punishments or rewards to the thing that didn't do anything.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


Soul provides energy for the person's brains along with the other body parts to gain consciousness. Memories are stored in one's brain cells ..We know that ..Soul doesn't carry and memories to the next life ...Cause that is the whole point behind the concept of death. Death is not only physical, it wipes out the memories too. So that the soul can begin its new journey as another person who knows nothing about the world. Not even their own identity until the others introduce them to themselves LOL

Again, I just doesn't understand how you make so big claims and then say that you know nothing about it. Seems oxymoron to me. LOL If soul is not doing anything, what is the point? You yourself are saying that everything is done by the physical self. And also that you don't have any proof of soul. So you don't have proof of something which there isn't a use of. Seems to me that it points out that the thing doesn't exist.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


 Its like ..Sound as the energy that a deaf person can't reckon ..We don't have a sense nuff to reckon the existence of the soul with the senses we currently have. We have to leave certain things to imagination and believe in them unless you succeed in proving them wrong. Human's can create most organs artificially ..They can create a body ..But can't power that to life ..LIFE << is the word here ..Cause they don't know to transform the existing known energies to the energy that can power the bodies.. 

What about cloning? We make a new organism that is living. So does that mean we can create souls? Or the new being is alive without a soul? How do you explain it? Cloning is gonna make game tough for you lot, isn't it? LOL


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


.@ Bold 2:  I never said that the energy can't be created or destroyed .LOL Science says so ...LOL ...Assuming that its true ..my contention still doesn't get invalidated ..Cause of the same known facts ..See .the SUN emits enormous energy that helps engender the environment suitable to support the life on earth ...That energy can be calculated in measurable units / day .. / minute etc...SUN would continue to emit the energy until it runs outta that. ...Consider a HUGE source of energy ...as huge as the infinity that emits the energy that it already has ( Not created ) eternally. ie : The soul ...So there is every possibility that there could be infinite souls..that ll keep fostering life in many bodies..until the Major source of that = The GOD runs outta that .. Which will be NEVER.  

Science doesn't just says so, it has proved so. And if it is energy, then it should be detectable. Show me some detection. And how exactly that energy gets transferred to poeple and out of them? And if it just gives matter life, why doesn't a rock becomes alive when the energy passes through it?


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


@ Bold 3:  Tell me this ..Did science exist before itself? ...Was science always present ? NO ..It was first imagined and then established as theories and rules.. There are many things beyond the reach of science and the science still assumes them as the facts ..like for instancehow can science say that the UNIVERSE is INFINITE ? ..What is the proof that science has that the UNIVERSE has no boundaries ? Or there is something that's even beyond the UNIVERSE? Science assumes many things ...Billions of things ..that it can't establish as facts..So why are  other branches of knowledge not allowed to assume ?   Let the science prove those assumptions wrong scientifically ...and the would stop assuming such things ..Cause their system doesn't rely upon science. Its indigenous and autonomous. 

Science is not a "thing" that it will exist. It's just a method that we use to study about things. So, yeah that method was always there and can be used by anyone, not necessarily humans. Whether the Universe is finite or infinite is still an open question. What science says that it has no edge, there is no boundary to the Universe. Why? Because current knowledge shows so. If you want, you can study the maths behind it.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


 Haha That's why I told ya we must think freely ..The Big Bang theory states the times started with the Big Bang ...But again do they have the proof that it didn't exist before that? That the cosmic material existed in a timeless era?  We are not debating over what the theory has said ..We are trying to think even beyond that ...

Well, I asked you a question when you gave a similar reply. I see you didn't answer that. So, I will ask again. 
"And time isn't some Universal clock that ticks that you can restart. We can't even say exactly what time is. Can you even measure time without motion? If everything in Universe came to a standstill will time exist?"


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


@ Bold 4:  How can infinite be smaller than something ? Big smile I said exactly the thing you stated before ..All the material was present at the time of the Big bang ..and was confined to a smaller area in Infinite space ...Which then blasted off to dispel the material in there ..

Infinity + 100 = Infinity
Infinity * 2 = Infinity.
OK?
You seemed to imply that a point exploded like a bomb and dispersed material. Which was not what happened.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

 
@ Bold 5:  We can't see / say what time is.. Still we believe in its creation and continuous forward motion ...But we don't believe in another something that we can't see. The soul.  What proof do we have that the time exists even now? Its conceptual ..and still we calculate that. It can restart cause it is measured by humans ..from the point of their convenience ...

We treat it as a conceptual thing to keep track of motion. We still can't say if it objectively exists or not. 


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


Universe would certainly end ..as all the STARS are continuously shedding the energy ..They will all die off in many million years from now ..and a situation would then be suitable for another Big Bang ..from where the time would restart  .. .Big bang itself is a concept ..We don't have a material proof of that which can appeal to our minds ..We have left many things for assumptions even there ... Time and motion can't be related ..Motion might depend on time ..But time can't depend on the motions ..Things can lie cactus for billions of years ..which again signifies a time period .. 

Current model points to a heat death. Universe will cool as it will expand and at some point the temperature will become so low that no work will be possible. I don't think this situation will cause Big Bang.
But how do you know time is passing if nothing moves. Time and motion are very much related.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


@ Bold 6:  Science itself admits that the energy existed forever ..as it can't be created ..and we know energy in many forms and transform that .we believe that energy that can't be created has existed even before the times if you insist that time started at the big bang that is ...So that Energy which is the source of all energies which exists eternally must be given a name. We call that The GOD ...Like you call Hydrogen the Hydrogen ..out of your choice ...So we assign a  name to that phenomenal Source of energy which lasts forever ... We don't know what that Unknown is ..But we know and agree that the unknown exists ..Right ? So let's call that unknown the GOD .. But if you are not comfortable with that name ..you can call allude to that as something else..Even YOU or ME LOL I don't mind that .. LOL  But people might ...Hahaha ..What crazy people we have in this world .. 

What does "energy which his the source of all energies" mean? Confused  There is no "source of energy" that lasts forever. All energy lasts forever, they just change form. So, I don't know where do you get the idea of source from. How all this came to be is another topic which we don't know. We don't know if there was a source, so we have not reached the point of naming it. 

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