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If you believe in God, refute this! (Page 68)

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

Joined: 16 May 2012

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Posted: 04 October 2012 at 10:54pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.


How do you propose we "observe" without any exchange of photons being involved in the process?! This should be interesting.

Of course we can't. I was just pointing out a technicality error as you love to do with my posts, that it's the act of interaction that collapses wave function Wink It's annoying when you know that the other person will understand it. LOL

But, it raises one serious question too. Does observer has to be conscious or any interacting particle will do? And if the photon interacts with the object but nobody "observes" it after interaction, will the wavefunction collapse?

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 04 October 2012 at 10:57pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.


The "misquote" was not intentional. I was saving some real estate by not quoting the entire response.

Actually, if you consider the entire context within which I said that, you would notice that I was only talking about a forum such as Debate Mansion where one could theoretically debate with oneself without a real audience / real framework. Something like playing chess with oneself.

But the other aspect of it, namely solipsism, has a lot going for it too but perhaps we could postpone a discussion on it to another time / another place.

Oh, okay. I just thought that you were scaling the idea to the whole Universe. That the framework i.e. Universe which allows subjects to interact, maybe it's all going on in the mind of "one".

Yeah, let's not include it here. The idea is interesting but seems just philosophical rambling to me. LOL

Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posts: 13809

Posted: 04 October 2012 at 11:00pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.


[Off topic] That's a super attitude to have and you will go a long way if you possess that all your life.

Thanks. Well, the unknown fascinates me. Just because I don't accept classical God doesn't mean I am not interested in the unknown. It's time we figured out exactly what reality is. What are "reality" and consciousness, and how are the both tied together? That's the most important question now.


Edited by Freethinker112 - 04 October 2012 at 10:59pm

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Samraat_92

Freethinker112

IF-Sizzlerz

Freethinker112

Joined: 16 May 2012

Posts: 13809

Posted: 04 October 2012 at 11:02pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

Found this gem on the internet:

"Anyone who is not shocked by quantum theory has not understood it." - Niels Bohr

I would like to add this one,

"Anyone who says that they understand Quantum Mechanics does not understand Quantum Mechanics" - Richard Feynman

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K.Universe.

Vintage.Wine

Goldie

Vintage.Wine

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Posted: 04 October 2012 at 11:27pm | IP Logged
Hey Freethinka ..Tongue
Cough cough !!  ( Clears throat ! Tongue)  Allow me to express my candid view on the subject matter here ...I would take a Anti Agnostic stance for a change .and come in later to contradict myself when I get back to becoming my agnostic self again ..Tongue

 This is pertaining to a few random points I chose from the discussion unto now in my current less enigmatic state of mind ..LOL The LAW says ..The energy cannot be created or destroyed...Like all machines we too need our source of energy..The food I mean..But how  did our life begin ? What was that energy that made us move for the first time inside our mum's womb..LOL Food can't be that ..I mean what if we feed someone who is dead .They can't walk or talk again ..So lets assume there is this energy popularly knows as the SOUL ..

 Now to the point where you rightly questioned about the ever increasing human population .
.The Souls if they are energy can't be created .True that ..But never forget there are many species that have become extinct ..Many animals are on the verge of becoming extinct ..The i surmise  soul should be  the same for everyone ..Human Souls and animals souls as in energy can't be different ..They are the same..And that is if we confine our view to the belief that the life exists only on earth in the form of the creatures we know. Science still has to explore many things .Endless theories and facts ...The life on earth would end one day as the SUN transforms into a supernova and dies off later ...So the question is who created souls  ? Who created the World ? The Universe ...BIG BANG  <<< LOL Yehahaha ..That's true in a sense..but who engendered the BIG BANG? We don't know about the beginning..cause the times existed even before that ..Who made all celestial objects work in a preset rule ..Revolve around each other in a continuous motion of their own ...So impeccably and smoothly ...Science is yet to find the answer to such things ...And Until such answers are found we would resort to a Belief that the GOD ...The Unknown, Unseen is the creator of that ...GOD as a concept ..not as some physical form that's apparent to the vision or scientific procedures ...Science is yet to evolve much to the point of dismissing the idea behind such Supreme unknown power

Regarding the Souls ..The Cameras that can pick up and snap objects beyond the  visible spectrum of light have recorded unusual shapes and objects that foster much curiosity ...God, The power could be pretty much visible to ...NO ...I am not calling myself the GOD here LOL Oh! Please ! LOL What I have to say is ..Many had seen the Apples fall ..But only Sir Newton could reckon that the tug of Gravity caused that LOL  We need another such visionary who can resolve the most amazing mystery behind the unknown ...The occult ...I promise I ll try my best to do so ..LOL ..But if I flunk ..someone else might do that ...Let's wait for that day ..and let's hope it happens before the dooms day LOL Until then You and I can debate over this ..There can't be a better way to kill time than this ..All Thanks to YOU ..and to THE GOD ..who Gave me such a wonderful chance .LOL

To Be Continued ... Tongue



 


 

Summer3

IF-Stunnerz

Summer3

Joined: 24 September 2007

Posts: 44222

Posted: 05 October 2012 at 3:47am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

Hey Freethinka ..Tongue
Cough cough !!  ( Clears throat ! Tongue)  Allow me to express my candid view on the subject matter here ...I would take a Anti Agnostic stance for a change .and come in later to contradict myself when I get back to becoming my agnostic self again ..Tongue

 This is pertaining to a few random points I chose from the discussion unto now in my current less enigmatic state of mind ..LOL The LAW says ..The energy cannot be created or destroyed...Like all machines we too need our source of energy..The food I mean..But how  did our life begin ? What was that energy that made us move for the first time inside our mum's womb..LOL Food can't be that ..I mean what if we feed someone who is dead .They can't walk or talk again ..So lets assume there is this energy popularly knows as the SOUL ..

 Now to the point where you rightly questioned about the ever increasing human population .
.The Souls if they are energy can't be created .True that ..But never forget there are many species that have become extinct ..Many animals are on the verge of becoming extinct ..The i surmise  soul should be  the same for everyone ..Human Souls and animals souls as in energy can't be different ..They are the same..And that is if we confine our view to the belief that the life exists only on earth in the form of the creatures we know. Science still has to explore many things .Endless theories and facts ...The life on earth would end one day as the SUN transforms into a supernova and dies off later ...So the question is who created souls  ? Who created the World ? The Universe ...BIG BANG  <<< LOL Yehahaha ..That's true in a sense..but who engendered the BIG BANG? We don't know about the beginning..cause the times existed even before that ..Who made all celestial objects work in a preset rule ..Revolve around each other in a continuous motion of their own ...So impeccably and smoothly ...Science is yet to find the answer to such things ...And Until such answers are found we would resort to a Belief that the GOD ...The Unknown, Unseen is the creator of that ...GOD as a concept ..not as some physical form that's apparent to the vision or scientific procedures ...Science is yet to evolve much to the point of dismissing the idea behind such Supreme unknown power

Regarding the Souls ..The Cameras that can pick up and snap objects beyond the  visible spectrum of light have recorded unusual shapes and objects that foster much curiosity ...God, The power could be pretty much visible to ...NO ...I am not calling myself the GOD here LOL Oh! Please ! LOL What I have to say is ..Many had seen the Apples fall ..But only Sir Newton could reckon that the tug of Gravity caused that LOL  We need another such visionary who can resolve the most amazing mystery behind the unknown ...The occult ...I promise I ll try my best to do so ..LOL ..But if I flunk ..someone else might do that ...Let's wait for that day ..and let's hope it happens before the dooms day LOL Until then You and I can debate over this ..There can't be a better way to kill time than this ..All Thanks to YOU ..and to THE GOD ..who Gave me such a wonderful chance .LOL

To Be Continued ... Tongue


 
 

BTW our Mr. Freethinker does not believe in the Soul which means he sees himself as the body and upon death everything ends "The End"LOL
Personally I see the soul as actually ONE but it can appear as MANY. To experience the Oneness we must practise Oneness I think.

 


Edited by Summer3 - 07 October 2012 at 9:54pm

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Vintage.Wine

zorrro

Goldie

zorrro

Joined: 29 July 2008

Posts: 2141

Posted: 05 October 2012 at 4:15am | IP Logged

Originally posted by Freethinker112

 So, the creator likes to put gap between his creations? Let's design here, then go some light years to the north, then design again?

May be and may be not . How am I supposed to know that? But I dont see why a designer should be restricted in his designings.

 Because we create so many vehicles. That's why I said it would be understandable if other planets were filled with life too. But since we are alone in quite a larg chunk, why not make it habitable? If I designed only one vehicle for a country, I would only manufacture wheels that fit it.

I'm sorry I  dont get the logic here .Confused  If you design  vehicles for transport, you could design a three wheeler, a two wheeler or a no wheeler if you like.  A hovercraft, a speed boat and so on.

 Because if someone was designing, he would know the requirements at that point. Since we are evolving according to conditions, shows that there was no design.

Not necessarily. You could always improvise on the design. 

But that doesn't stop people from claiming God does exist, does it?

Something mysterious can still exist and be unknown or cant it ?

Yes. And unless one can solve that paradox or come up with an explanation that does not involve the paradox, you can't claim that God exists.

There is no end to such paradoxes. Lets see one for example: "You think that motion is infinitely divisible? Then it follows that nothing moves!" So should we conclude that nothing moves?

What exactly do you mean by who we are? We are homo sapiens. We have a good understanding of our biology. The big mystery is that of consciousness. What is it?

 Homo sapiens is just a conventional label.  We have a fair understanding of biology but which of it would you call "you" Which tissue, which cell,... all cells?  They keep altering, dying and renewing.  Consciousness is a mystery  in itself.  So is it wrong to say that it exists?

Freethinker112

IF-Sizzlerz

Freethinker112

Joined: 16 May 2012

Posts: 13809

Posted: 05 October 2012 at 7:17am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


 This is pertaining to a few random points I chose from the discussion unto now in my current less enigmatic state of mind ..LOL The LAW says ..The energy cannot be created or destroyed...Like all machines we too need our source of energy..The food I mean..But how  did our life begin ? What was that energy that made us move for the first time inside our mum's womb..LOL Food can't be that ..I mean what if we feed someone who is dead .They can't walk or talk again ..So lets assume there is this energy popularly knows as the SOUL ..

Because dead people's body has been damaged and therefore they can't do anything. If we are spiritual beings then why does physical damage kill us? The "soul" should give us "energy", shouldn't it?


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


 Now to the point where you rightly questioned about the ever increasing human population .
.The Souls if they are energy can't be created .True that ..But never forget there are many species that have become extinct ..Many animals are on the verge of becoming extinct ..The i surmise  soul should be  the same for everyone ..Human Souls and animals souls as in energy can't be different ..They are the same..And that is if we confine our view to the belief that the life exists only on earth in the form of the creatures we know. 

So, one species die up to make for the increased soul demand? LOL Okay, so one question for you. If every member of every species start reproducing simultaneously, children won't be born due to lack of soul? Or there will be mass dying of some species and they will fall dead instantly? And who will decide the priority of the species which receive the soul?


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

 Science still has to explore many things .Endless theories and facts ...The life on earth would end one day as the SUN transforms into a supernova and dies off later ...So the question is who created souls  ? Who created the World ? The Universe ...BIG BANG  <<< LOL Yehahaha ..That's true in a sense..but who engendered the BIG BANG? We don't know about the beginning..cause the times existed even before that ..Who made all celestial objects work in a preset rule ..Revolve around each other in a continuous motion of their own ...So impeccably and smoothly ...Science is yet to find the answer to such things ...And Until such answers are found we would resort to a Belief that the GOD ...The Unknown, Unseen is the creator of that ...GOD as a concept ..not as some physical form that's apparent to the vision or scientific procedures ...Science is yet to evolve much to the point of dismissing the idea behind such Supreme unknown power 

Time did not exist before Big Bang. And yes, we don't know what caused Big Bang. And the spheres and the orbits are there because they are the most stable state with least resistance. Nature always try to balance things out. And yes, unknown is there but we can't say he is the creator, not now.


Originally posted by Vintage.Wine


Regarding the Souls ..The Cameras that can pick up and snap objects beyond the  visible spectrum of light have recorded unusual shapes and objects that foster much curiosity ...God, The power could be pretty much visible to ...NO ...I am not calling myself the GOD here LOL Oh! Please ! LOL What I have to say is ..Many had seen the Apples fall ..But only Sir Newton could reckon that the tug of Gravity caused that LOL  We need another such visionary who can resolve the most amazing mystery behind the unknown ...The occult ...I promise I ll try my best to do so ..LOL ..But if I flunk ..someone else might do that ...Let's wait for that day ..and let's hope it happens before the dooms day LOL Until then You and I can debate over this ..There can't be a better way to kill time than this ..All Thanks to YOU ..and to THE GOD ..who Gave me such a wonderful chance .LOL

To Be Continued ... Tongue

So, can you give me the range of electromagnetic spectrum that contains souls? It can be easily verified then. But, no. Most of the photos can be explained away. 

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