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If you believe in God, refute this! (Page 5)

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 5:04am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Aya.

Nahh . You just couldn't come up with something better .

Funny, was going to say the same thing about you.


Originally posted by Aya.

What proof do you have that there isn't a God ?
Proof to me science without using science books ! Confused ?

It's stupid to ask to prove a negative. You are the one making a claim, that God exists. So, it is up to you to provide proof of his existence. You wan to proof negative? Can you prove I am not God? I say I am, will offer no proof but I say that I am God? Can you prove I am not? Now, do you get why is it stupid to prove a negative? And if you believe that I am God, then it is worthless to continue this discussion.


Originally posted by Aya.

If you don't believe in God, just because you're not able to see the evidence, then why do you believe in what you believe, since that has no evidence either ?

I believe in science. Are you saying that Science has no evidence? Really?


Originally posted by Aya.

If you seriously want to believe that there is a God, then you NEED to have Faith do that, which you don't have ! Basically, It's like how you believe in your imaginations, because you trust it .

Again, things don't need my faith to exist. If I started believing you don't exist, you won't magically disappear. So, if God is real, there would be proof, but there isn't. And I don't believe Science by trust, but because it has proofs. And are you really calling science imagination?


Originally posted by Aya.

I'm not the one here who has made this topic . So, you're the confused one here .

Not a bit confused here. Just having some debate.


Originally posted by Aya.

Basically, for those who know God, no further proof is essential . & for those who do not yet know Him, no proof is enough .

Well faith is actually absence of evidence, because if there is proof, you are sure. So, you are believing without any evidence. And trust me, I believe in scientific way, and proof will be enough for me. Just give me a proof of God, any way to observe him.


Originally posted by Aya.

"Simple proof, if you see a car there must be a car manufacturer. So, you see all the creations on earth and you shall know for certain that there must be a creator ! Because the creations are so perfect, each one has each one uniqueness. Those creations could not just happened by random act of nothingness just like what atheists try to suggest.

Simple proof, if there is a God , then there must be a God manufacturer. Ummm... and who was that again? These are your own words. I asked many times and you don't reply. Don't dodge.

And no everything doesn't require creation. For example, there are mountains of such shapes and sizes. Do you think somebody went out and carved them? No, they have formed by erosion of rocks, which is a random act.


Originally posted by Aya.

When a mother gives birth to a precious newborn baby, she feels an overwhelming bond and love for the child like she has never known before. Where did this love come from? Is her love tangible? Can she physically see this thing called "love"? Well, no. She sees her baby whom she loves, but love itself she cannot see. Does the fact that her love is unseen diminish the fact that her love is real? Of course not. The same applies to trust in the Love of God, God is love, and yet we have never seen. We feel His love, we sense His presence, we see His miracles and we trust His Word." - John M.

Well, the love is due to oxytocin released after childbirth. But, leave that. You say we cannot see love, I agree. Love is an emotion, which can be felt not seen. But you can see the child can't you? The child, whom the mother loves, is very real. In the same way, I am not asking to see your faith. Faith is an emotion, which can't be seen but only felt. But the person for whom you have faith, God, he should be real and I ask for proof of his existence. Just as the source of love, the baby, can be seen not love itself, I want to observe the source of faith, God, and not faith itself. Understand the difference?

And no, I don't feel love, presence, or miracles of God. The world is cruel and full of evil. So, if God is so loving, why doesn't he destroy all evil. That's exactly what I asked in Epicurean Paradox. Read that part of the OP again and then answer. 

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 5:10am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Aya.

You're just trying too hard to deny everything that comes your way .

Well, there is nothing to deny because you haven't offered even one proof yet.


Originally posted by Aya.

It's only a stupid logic to people who don't believe in God.

Are you saying that your argument that "he only exists when you believe in him" is not stupid? If so, will you cease to exist if  I don't believe in you? Answer yes if you think your logic was not stupid.


Originally posted by Aya.

Those people who believe in Him are not desperate for proof . You're the one who's looking for evidence, so go look for it ! Don't ask people who already believe in Him ! & by the way, you've forgotten to reply back to my other post ! 

Well, it's not me who made the claim that God exists. You are saying he does, so you have to prove it. Or, just say that you believe in him without any evidence whatsoever.

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Angel-likeDevil

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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 6:11am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by Angel-likeDevil

I dont believe that there's a body or something called God, that created the world. But yes, I do believe in God. For me existence is God. So, it wouldnt matter if I called "God" , God or simply "ABC" .. I most importantly see existence as God.. divine beauty. Existence is beautiful. Universe is. 
 
 
And, there's nothing evil or angelic. It's all the way MAN looks at it. There is nothing evil or bad... a "thing" is what it is. It is us that label things. Existance knows no good or bad... things are just the way they are.
 
 
Why people think 'god' created the world, etc? They have no answers.. that's why. I'd say, it is US that created a God... there was never a thing like God. But there was an existence, there has been a universe. And, I also believe in soul... afterall, you and I are a part existence.
 
It's once again, a MAN's mind. He wants to believe in something to feel secure, to keep going ahead, to throw his wishes at something, etc.
 
 
 
NOTE : I am NOT looking for an argument, merely just stated my views. 
 
 

Since you have stepped in the lands of debate mansion, THOU SHALT NOT PASS WITHOUT AN  ARGUMENT! LOL

Agree with some of your views. people needed answers, so they created a construct called God, which is called God of gaps. But, now we have answers for many of the natural phenomena, it's time people stopped believing God is a person running things.

And please reply to this question regarding souls.

Originally posted by Himanshu

You say people die and soul takes birth again. If that was the case, the population should have remained constant. But once we are few hundred, now we are 7 billion. So, is there some soul factory for manufacturing?
 
"SOUL" is nothing but consciousness/energy. It exists everywhere... in universe.
 
You and me, are part of the 'energy' . There's energy everywhere, in rocks, in your chappal, in plants, everywhere... everything has soul. There are Zen masters that treat a rock/their own footwear with respect...and I believe in Zen :)
 
There's nothing as soul factory lmao. Our souls are part of energies, which get released into the universe after we die, and until we take a re-birth.
 
Hope i made sense :)

Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 6:22am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Angel-likeDevil

"SOUL" is nothing but consciousness/energy. It exists everywhere... in universe.
 
You and me, are part of the 'energy' . There's energy everywhere, in rocks, in your chappal, in plants, everywhere... everything has soul. There are Zen masters that treat a rock/their own footwear with respect...and I believe in Zen :)
 
There's nothing as soul factory lmao. Our souls are part of energies, which get released into the universe after we die, and until we take a re-birth.
 
Hope i made sense :)

Well first of all consciousness is different from energy. Our brain provides us consciousness. A person who has died is still matter but is no longer conscious.

And we are made up of matter. Matter and energy are different things. And if rocks have souls, are they conscious?

What I asked was let's say once there were 1000 people. We have 1000 souls. But, after some time there were 5000 people. So, where does the 4000 extra soul came from? Now, we are at 7 billion and increasing. Where are all the souls coming from? 

And where do souls go? We can measure energy. If soul is indeed energy, can we measure the soul? And is all energy conscious or just souls? If only souls, what makes them different?

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Rehanism

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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 11:27am | IP Logged
The words spirit/ghost/soul have a same meaning i.e. breath. In olden times people believed that the air that we inhale and exhale is an entity called Soul that resides in our heart and when we die it leaves our body and hence we stop breathing and our heart stops pumping.

So technically speaking, soul, spirit or ghost does exist. Want evidence? Place your hand under your nose for 3 secsWink

Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 8:25pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Rehanism

The words spirit/ghost/soul have a same meaning i.e. breath. In olden times people believed that the air that we inhale and exhale is an entity called Soul that resides in our heart and when we die it leaves our body and hence we stop breathing and our heart stops pumping.

So technically speaking, soul, spirit or ghost does exist. Want evidence? Place your hand under your nose for 3 secsWink

Well, breath is just air, a mixture of gases. It doesn't live inside us. And it's not living or conscious. People call soul as something that gives you life, is conscious and stays in our body till we die. While breath is always replenished, it doesn't stay with us. Does that mean our soul is changed every time we inhale and exhale? And soul/ghost are said to be alive and conscious even after death, while air has no life either inside our body or outside.

So, no I don't think breath fits the concept of soul. Because then we will need nearly a billion soul for each person. LOL

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*Woh Ajnabee*

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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 10:00pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

The Godless Equation

 

Who created God? If someone did then he is not so great now, is he? And I know that you will go the predicted path of "God doesn't need to be created and he has existed for all this time".

 

So, basically you agree that a "thing" can exist without being created.

 

So, why not remove God from the equation and apply this to the universe. The universe has always existed, and it didn't need to be created. After all that's what Occam's razor says, any explanation that makes fewest assumptions is more probable. So, I applied the belief you agreed to directly to the universe and voila! We have one less element to worry about. And if you not agree to the statement that something can exist without creation then answer, who created God?



Let's turn the tables on that one - why can't we say that God has always existed and didn't need to be created at some point by someone. Isn't that the same argument? Atheists have a tendency to give so much credit to the universe and refute God's existence, but really the universe is their "god". It is still a supernatural entity that you're putting your faith into.

A lot of religious scripture refers to "the beginning of time" implying that God created the universe before the beginning of time. And if God created the universe before the concept of time began, it implies that God also created time along with our dimensions of the universe. (I think Plato has also made a reference to this concept that "time" and the universe were created at once.)

If we believe the above to be true, we can argue that God exists outside the dimension of time. In our world, where time is a critical dimension, everything has a cause-and-effect relationship. If we assume God created time, and "time" did not exist before the universe, there is no cause and effect. Therefore, everything in that realm could exist without cause or without being created.

If you say the universe is eternal, you're saying a non-intelligent "god" created this world we live in, even if randomly. If that's the case, Occam's razor would not favor your argument since the complexity of the universe would be much easily explained with purposeful, intelligent design than random creation since the latter requires many more assumptions than the former. And by the way, most atheists agree that the universe is not eternal and was created at some point in time (i.e. the Big Bang theory). 


Edited by *Woh Ajnabee* - 06 August 2012 at 10:01pm

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Summer3

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Posted: 06 August 2012 at 10:01pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by Summer3

Lord Buddha never spoke of God, nor did he tell his followers to pray. But He did emphasis on proper living, right understanding etc.
He taught love, compassion and the escape from rebirths.
 
 
So whether we believe in God or not we must strive to escape from rebirth.
 
I like the concept of God, as it is fun. Whatever we believe in becomes a reality, in some ways our minds creates everything.
 
God if we think of God we are.

Yeah, I agree with many of Buddha thinking. Being human is enough for me. But I don't believe in the concept of rebirth as I don't believe in the existence of soul.
 
As long as we know that we exist it is enough.
We can take it from there and explore. When awake we are aware but in sleep we often lose all awareness and get lost. Some speak of the awareness of  the "I".
Some Buddhists practise vipassana yoga which is basically being aware or mindful about everything and being more introspective.
 
"It is a practice of self-transformation through self-observation and introspection to the extent that sitting with a steadfast mind allows a practitioner to perceive reality as impermanent.[2] "

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