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If you believe in God, refute this! (Page 147)

_Angie_ IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 9:31pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by _Angie_

Does one have to apply logic while attempting an illogical problem ?


Reminds me of a scene from Donnie Darko

Donnie: Oh, I don't know. I mean, I'd like to believe I'm not, but I just... I've just never seen any proof, so I... I just don't debate it anymore, you know? It's like I could spend my whole life debating it over and over again, weighing the pros and cons. And in the end, I still wouldn't have any proof. So I just... I just don't debate it anymore. It's absurd.

Dr. Thurman: The search for God is absurd?

Donnie: It is if everyone dies alone.
Hmmm...perhaps Darko equipped with at least a torchlight would be better off than Darko without any.


Edited by _Angie_ - 08 December 2012 at 9:30pm
Beyond_the_Veil IF-Sizzlerz

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K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 11:43pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Beyond_the_Veil

Yeah, that's why agnostic theism works perfectly from me. I don't know but I believe. LOL


I think you are an ignostic (like me) considering you too wouldn't answer the question whether God exists unless a working definition of God is provided that is acceptable to all.
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K.Universe. Goldie
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Posted: 09 December 2012 at 9:29am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Beyond_the_Veil


I agree though. Is it possible to find the existence of something when we don't even know what that something is?

It's like trying to find XYZ.

"Does XYZ exist?"
"Well what is XYZ?"

I think anthropomorphic versions of God/gods can easily be dismissed as man-made depictions. Depending on the definition, people will perceive it differently.

But I think a narrow definition of God from various philosophies and religions can be deduced. 'First uncaused cause' is the narrowest it can get.


Hate to nitpick but why did you use three variables? That adds to the confusion :) You could have simply added:
"Does X exist?"
"Well what is X?"

Yes, "what is it?" is a fundamental question. The problem is we can only understand what that is in terms of what we know. We know energy/matter (elements), we know forces (gravitation, electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces), we know space and we know time. Actually, even these are not very well understood but we pretend that we understand them anyway.

So, whenever we come across a concept like God, we try to break it down into terms we know and understand. Is that energy/matter? Is that a force? Is that consciousness (yet another catch-all phrase)?

And, the biggest constraint of all is that none of the above mentioned can exist outside the dimensions of space-time. To us that is. In fact, that is where even our language breaks down, not to mention the carefully constructed physical laws, the logic, the math. Simply put, "Outside" is a word that cannot penetrate space-time.

So here's the puzzle (understatement by the way): we know that everything, and by that I mean every single darn thing, dissolves into a singularity, where space-time, energy/matter and forces were all united (read mathematically integrated). To us, it is a state.  That was the state that the universe was in. To understand what that state is, we start breaking it into terms we understand (mathematically differentiating). So what's the puzzle?! Well, to understand what that is, should we integrate further or differentiate? As a simple analogy: brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. Are we supposed to understand brass as brass or are we supposed to understand Brass as a mix of copper and zinc in some proportions, and copper and zinc themselves in terms of their atomic weights and electron configurations and so on?

As a visual, you can imagine you have a tiny lens in your hand and there is something gigantic in front of you, all around you, that you proceeded to examine with your lens. Let's call that something God. How would you analyze what you have in front of you, all around you? By taking in that something as a whole or by traversing your lens on that something, part by part, atom by atom? Remember the goal is to understand everything, and holding that everything in your brain as one single thought. And this single thought should have the explanation for you as well, not just everything but you.

But then what is that thought? What is it composed of? There we go, differentiating again.

It's a vicious cycle!



Freethinker112 IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 09 December 2012 at 10:00am | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Universe.

Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by Beyond_the_Veil

Can God create a mountain so heavy that he cannot lift it? If he can lift it, then he couldn't have made it THAT heavy - this is a blow to his omnipotence. If he can make it that heavy that it becomes impossible for him to lift it, then he has never been omnipotent to begin with.

This is something I have just recently come across. There are some explanations found on the paradox in the net too, will have to look it up.

I read that in some article, long time ago. Paradox of omnipotent. Would link but the site is down. I have the three pages article saved to my disk.

The theists then claim God is beyond logic. He is beyond science too. And he is beyond human understanding too. But yeah, they definitely know he exists. Smells like another paradox to me. LOL



It's easy to pick apart most paradoxes including the "omnipotent paradox" presented here if only one is willing to spend a couple of minutes thinking. Sadly, most people refuse to think for fear of getting taxed.

BTW, theists claiming that God definitely exists is not that different from atheists claiming that God definitely doesn't exist.

How do you pick apart this one? That's a sincere question, not a joke or sarcasm. Smile

Yeah, atheism is a bit extreme too. I personally can't say with 100% certainty, as there might be a possibility that such an entity exists. So, my personal take is unless we encounter such an being, I consider it nonexistent for all practical purposes..
Freethinker112 IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 09 December 2012 at 10:06am | IP Logged
@K

Can't he use a three character variable? Wink LOL

BTW, you raise a good question. When do we say we have understood a thing? At the smallest level, full differentiated, or at the highest level, fully integrated. I think maybe we  can say we know things when we know every step of the process. Like the math textbooks. You see the question and you may peek at the answer in the back, but unless you can go through the whole process, you have not understood the thing.

And how did we get the function to differentiate and integrate? Who is creating the functions? Who is writing the books?
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