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If you believe in God, refute this! (Page 138)

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 28 October 2012 at 9:30am | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

since you want to go on with the trivia, how many kangaroos do you find jumping in your backyard? I got 0 for an answer.LOL

How can you be sure of that? Wink LOL


Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

you made a point suggesting 0 is not "reality". If you want to limit that to only energy, then we have to get into other discussion. But 0 is not something one would rule out without research. It's possible, just depends on what quantity/ concept we are talking about. So it's very real in that general sense. 

First of all, point was just 0 is a concept, 0 attached with something can be real.

And here we were talking about that how can "nothing" exist in real? Is there something completely "empty"? Even the vacuum is active.

And don't mix them all, please. The two points above are separate, and they both are different from that zero energy universe, whose possibility I was talking about. We don't know that the total energy of Universe is 0.

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 28 October 2012 at 9:35am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

 
  The name doesn't matter ..Krishna or the Christ ...Not to me ...and shouldn't matter to most unless I start calling myself the GOD LOL  << Which I DO ..but in a difference sense of that word ..A part of the greater energy that is ...Tongue

Names do matter when things get so ambiguous that misinterpretation starts. It is energy. It didn't create itself. It is not conscious. It didn't "create" us. In that sense, not a God.

Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

 
 @ Bold:  But we know that the energy exists ...Which I call the GOD ...Not just Krishna ...but by every name that everybody alludes to that ...For MOSKHA I need a soul ? ..I am the SOUL ..as i had told ya ..everything is, The derivative of the big energy.. ...Moksha definitely doesn't mean dwelling in some heavenly abode ...LOL It means again being the part of that Energy ..Which then is separate from all consciousness ..The Joys , the Grief ...  

Again, see above. And no, you have not told what part is the soul? Which vanishes as soon as someone dies. And again, we all already have energy. So, we all are in moksha. Unless you wanna explain what "being part of that Energy" means.

P.S. - And to the rest, I don't wanna mix religion in this. Smile


Edited by Freethinker112 - 28 October 2012 at 9:35am

BirdieNumNum

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BirdieNumNum

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Posted: 28 October 2012 at 10:32am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112


Names do matter when things get so ambiguous that misinterpretation starts. It is energy. It didn't create itself. It is not conscious. It didn't "create" us. In that sense, not a God.


wow. Those are a lot of assertions.Can you prove any of it? Specifically,

energy cant create itself- how do you suppose we came up with energy in the first place? Did it always exist? Or it created itself? Or something else created it? Try anything, but let's see you trying to prove it.

and it didnt create us- again, can you prove it?

now just dont say that burden of proof is on believers. You made the assertions, it's for you to support them. Also, if you're going to use fuzzy principles, it will be fair for other side to do the same.

The following 1 member(s) liked the above post:

Vintage.Wine

K.Universe.

Goldie

K.Universe.

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Posted: 28 October 2012 at 10:50am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

I am sorry but I don't exactly understand what you are trying to ask. Electrons are the fundamental particles, not built of any sub-particles. If you have something built by parts, you can vary them by varying the order and arrangement of its parts. But if something doesn't have substructure, wouldn't it be the same? Please elaborate because I didn't get linking random with electron. Smile


For instance, photons are fundamental particles too but not all photons are the same, they differ by energy. Quarks are fundamental too but they have flavors (6 to be precise) with varying electrical charges depending upon the flavor.

Electrons on the other hand are identical. You can't distinguish one electron from another.

My question was about that "random" process that happened in the initial seconds of the big bang (lepton epoch) when electrons formed. How can one process "create/form" gazillions of particles ALL of which have the exact same mass, same charge and whatever other properties of those particles we know. The question was not about how is a process "creating" (as baffling as that is) but creating with such precision. As an analogy, we can't create golf balls that are identical. We might think they are but they wouldn't be.

K.Universe.

Goldie

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Posted: 28 October 2012 at 10:51am | IP Logged
Originally posted by BirdieNumNum

wow. Those are a lot of assertions.Can you prove any of it? Specifically,

energy cant create itself- how do you suppose we came up with energy in the first place? Did it always exist? Or it created itself? Or something else created it? Try anything, but let's see you trying to prove it.

and it didnt create us- again, can you prove it?

now just dont say that burden of proof is on believers. You made the assertions, it's for you to support them. Also, if you're going to use fuzzy principles, it will be fair for other side to do the same.



I know exactly what Freethinker is going to say and probably others do too by now but I will let him say it anyways :))

Vintage.Wine

Goldie

Vintage.Wine

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Posted: 28 October 2012 at 11:34am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

 
 

Names do matter when things get so ambiguous that misinterpretation starts. It is energy. It didn't create itself. It is not conscious. It didn't "create" us. In that sense, not a God.

Originally posted by Vintage.Wine

 
 

Again, see above. And no, you have not told what part is the soul? Which vanishes as soon as someone dies. And again, we all already have energy. So, we all are in moksha. Unless you wanna explain what "being part of that Energy" means.

P.S. - And to the rest, I don't wanna mix religion in this. Smile


  Oh!  WOW  LOL  ...

   Call it LIQUOR ...CAll it   SOM RAS ...Call it Tharra  <<<< The basic essence of that beverage would always remain the same ..All will flip ya out the same way ...LOL ..And what makes ya assume the consciousness can't be a product of energy ? .

 All I had to say was ...Assuming that the BIG BANG happened the way it has been articulated ...There existed enormous energy concentrated in one single point ...Even the Quarks have both energy and linear momentum ...The Matter / anti matter interaction which happened to be asymmetrical ( And physicists themselves state that this the impossible became possible here ..as all particles must have a  pairing  anti Particles for energy to remain energy in a pure form ) thus the matter was created ..and we are made of the same cute matter which has energy  .....Which means we are the part of that energy ...It actively partook the process that created the matter ( As an attribute of matter )  ie : us ..So we become a part of that ...

When a process which is opposite to what happened at big bang ...where Antiparticles would outnumber / equal the particles would be triggered ..all matter might again become energy ... Which means we and all the matter would stop existing as Particles + energy ..The electrons and hadrons would be gone ...The four forces  of nature might exist as Supergravity again ...

    ^^^^ I have explained what being part of energy means .. Now to the SKIT part of your reply

 @ Bold: 
Do we exist as sheer energy? Or are the particles our basic building block too ?  When you ll exist as pure energy I would say you have attained moksha..
 
   What happens after the death ..was something i had asked ya ...You were saying ..everything shuts off when the brain shuts off ..( Funny that ..Firstly you said Electrons Decay then you corrected that ...They you said ..the late body movements are the effect of Reflex actions engendered by the Spinal chord ..Then you said Hadrons came before Leptons ) ..That doesn't happen ..I presented ya with the question what happens to the Electrons .and other energy forms  as they can't be destroyed ...And What I alluded to as the soul was SHEER energy ..which is everywhere ..Not peculiar to a part ..

   If you want me to tell ya the process of death ..and  how exactly the energy is transformed ...I would like to resort to your kind of statement  " WE DON'T KNOW ..Just YET '  ...
 
  
Ask me that on September the  20th ...15 Billion AD and I promise ll tell ya that ..Yeah..  I ll have my answer ready by then .. Blushing ... But make sure you answer all those  " We don't knows'  at that time ..LOL

 
 @  PS:  You asked me for the historic reference of Krishna's existence ..I gave ya that ...  Tongue ...The point being someone who talked about multiple universes in the era when no scientist existed ...LOL ..I was not even talking religion ..LOL


  Also Please write that as a rule in the Opening post ..that religious beliefs can't be presented for consideration by the members here, in the thread that relates to the GOD LOL ( For those who might wanna take it to that level  ...) ..And that you would like to discuss GOD only on a Sub Atomic Level ...LOL ..After Einstein and Faraday  that is ...LOL


 Vintu... LOL


 

 






Edited by Vintage.Wine - 28 October 2012 at 11:36am

K.Universe.

Goldie

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Posted: 28 October 2012 at 11:56am | IP Logged
Originally posted by _Angie_

Originally posted by K.Universe.

If I were the mod I would ask - "why do you people need an extension? It's not like any of you are going to get any wiser in the next 50 pages (or in the next 50 years for that matter :) "

... assuming you do get wiser does it change anything ?


I am guessing a wise person will debate with self but I am not there yet.

K.Universe.

Goldie

K.Universe.

Joined: 02 September 2012

Posts: 1137

Posted: 28 October 2012 at 12:17pm | IP Logged
The way Quantum field theory (QFT) "resolves" the identical electrons question is by stating that particles are identical if and only if they are excitations of the same underlying quantum field.

Question then becomes, how do you localize a field? What do they mean by an underlying quantum field? Underlying what exactly?!

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