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If you believe in God, refute this! (Page 11)

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Rehanism

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Rehanism

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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 3:19pm | IP Logged

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 8:00pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Rehanism

Actually it all began 3 years back. Previously I too never cared about studying religions deeply - I deemed it a waste of time and energy - I had previously had a light reading of Gita and Mahabharata. But one day I stumbled upon a video of a certain Zakir Nair, an Islamic apologist, who claims to prove that Quran contains all sort of scientific miracles and Islam is actually better than all other religions etc etc. First I liked his speeches - in fact I think I liked his modern attire and sober nature - that made him different from typical mullahs - and also the fact that he can quote from various religious text purely from memory. But as I began to watch his videos, his claims grew weirder by the day.  Once he would quote a silly verse of creation from the Quran and claim it to be an allusion for Big Bang, other times he would try to prove that Muhammad is already predicted in other religious scriptures or try to establish how its okay to sleep with a nine year old kid or how western women are raped because they wear less clothes and his rhapsodic audience would clap and cheer him. Obviously I found the claims absurd but I had no way of refuting him so I decided to read the texts myself and what I found shocked me to no end. I realized that Zakir Naik is an ace fraud who has mastered the art of sophistry and who earns his living simply by fooling the gullible believers.

I think you will find this one pretty enlightening (and entertaining too):
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/NaikCampbellintro.htm

Slowly, through atheist websites like Faith Freedom and Nirmukta I found out that such con men are present in every damn religion, especially Hinduism, who misquote the texts or twist the meanings as per their convenience, use a plethora of logical fallacies to establish that their religion is primordial and full of scientific miracles and hence being more religious alone is the solution to all problems. And what is appalling is that they misuse scientific knowledge to further dogmatism and stupidity. Just google and you'll find hundreds of articles about *How Science proved the existence of Rama and Krishna?* or *How ancient Indians could fly Spacecrafts* etc. I think its very relevant for us, atheists and rationalists, to read religious texts if we truly wish to defeat religion and superstitions. We are less in numbers but unlike these frauds we have the power of truth and reason which can shatter even the best defenses of lies.


Well, that man is funny! I have seen his speeches on Peace TV. Always going on about "X Book, Chapter No. Y, Verse No. Z". And the biggest problem is that people take him at the face value because they themselves don't know, while he may be interpreting things out of context to fit his explanation. And that's exactly why I plan to read the religious books, so that I can answer people like him in their own language.

And yeah, I watched(only some minutes) of the argument between him and Dr. Campbell. And yeah, people jump onto the "it proves there is God" wagon after any discovery, while they don't even know the heads or tails of it. Like the discovery of God particle. Everybody started saying "Finally we have the proof of God!" and I was like *Facepalm*. They don't even know it was first called Goddamn particle because scientist believed it would disprove God. Later, to remove profanity, they removed the damn.

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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 8:03pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Rehanism

There is something called Natural Selection that is responsible for evolution of organisms. This can explain how rudimentary and simpler structures evolve as per surroundings into more complex and intelligent organisms. And no, its not exactly random or chaotic. In this universe every phenomena is governed by self sustaining laws. Now if you wish to refer to laws of universe collectively as God - just as Albert Einstein did - that's a different thing. So what's your idea of God? A person or a principle or a void? I guess when we speak of Creator God we normally mean a Personal God, a magic man, a big-daddy, addressed to as "He", who supposedly lives somewhere up in the sky and creates things out of nothing and answers peoples prayers or throws them to hell as per their faith or lack of it.

But I think you must ask a biologist for a more complete picture of evolution; I can't pretend to be an expert in this area. I never liked Biology in school.


Yep, that's the problem, people don't fully know about evolution and then claim to disprove it.

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RainbowWarrior

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Posted: 09 August 2012 at 12:38am | IP Logged
It's nice to see so many people seeking the truth, seeking knowledge Smile

I have my opinions, and my belief but I find online debates counter productive or may be I'm just not good at presenting my views properly LOL  

So, I'm not going jump in to the debate exactly; you may ignore this post... 

...or not. 

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 09 August 2012 at 2:33am | IP Logged
Originally posted by RainbowWarrior

It's nice to see so many people seeking the truth, seeking knowledge Smile

I have my opinions, and my belief but I find online debates counter productive or may be I'm just not good at presenting my views properly LOL  

So, I'm not going jump in to the debate exactly; you may ignore this post... 

...or not. 


Well, the site you linked just uses some bad logic, which has already been used before in this thread and I have addressed and disproved all of them. You can comment on my replies if you want. Tongue

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Posted: 09 August 2012 at 3:11am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by RainbowWarrior

It's nice to see so many people seeking the truth, seeking knowledge Smile

I have my opinions, and my belief but I find online debates counter productive or may be I'm just not good at presenting my views properly LOL  

So, I'm not going jump in to the debate exactly; you may ignore this post... 

...or not. 


Well, the site you linked just uses some bad logic, which has already been used before in this thread and I have addressed and disproved all of them. You can comment on my replies if you want. Tongue

I know, I read your posts already but no, I don't think it's bad logic. There's a way with these things, how the conversation/debate should go but the anonymity of the internet just muddles things up too much. So, I choose to not comment. Smile Meet me in the real world some day though, and you're on! Which brings me to the very lame question of what I'm doing in the debate mansion? LOL I just wanted to see if any games were on actually from Xoxo... wherever she may be...

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Rehanism

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Posted: 09 August 2012 at 3:21am | IP Logged
Originally posted by RainbowWarrior

It's nice to see so many people seeking the truth, seeking knowledge Smile

I have my opinions, and my belief but I find online debates counter productive or may be I'm just not good at presenting my views properly LOL  

So, I'm not going jump in to the debate exactly; you may ignore this post... 

...or not. 


If you read my second-last post on page 11 of this thread, you'll find I have already presented my counter-arguments to each and every point mentioned in your link.

As for evolution disproving the existence of God, well no, evolution itself doesn't DISPROVE the existence of God however it pretty much makes the role of Personal Creator God redundant. Additionally it completely dislodges two major religions of the world - Christianity and Islam.

Christianity is based on the idea that God-incarnate Jesus Christ took upon himself the punishment warranted for humans for the Original Sin and thus Jesus is the Saviour of mankind. Now if Evolution is true, the myth of Adam and Eve is false, and if that is false then the story of Original Sin and subsequent idea that Humans are sinners too is non-sense which in turn makes Christ's sacrifice completely meaningless and Christianity a complete lie.

Islam rests upon the idea that Muhammad is the last prophet of the God and that Quran is the perfect and verbatim word of God and thus Quran is not supposed to contain any error. To accept evolution would be tantamount to accept that Quran is severely flawed (as Quran too rehashes the same story of Biblical Creation of universe in 6 days and creation of Adam from muddy water and Eve from Adam's ribs) which would imply Islam is a lie too.

That is the reason you'll never find a believing Christian or Muslim accepting Evolution. Evolution is a banned topic in Islamic countries and in Christian countries too the Churches put utmost effort to discourage evolution and introduce alternative pseudoscience like Intelligent Design. For similar reasons the Hare Krishnas , who believe in Purans and Gita as verbatim word of God, do not accept Evolution and instead propose an alternative theory of "devolution".


PS: Sorry for going to religious discussion. But since this post itself mentions different idea of Christian God and Muslim God, I think it was relevant to state how evolution affects different beliefs of God.

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Posted: 09 August 2012 at 3:55am | IP Logged
@Rehanism

I'm not an advocate of the theory of evolution but I know what the folks on that link have done is just to 'get the ball rolling', so to speak. When you want to explain something to someone, it's makes sense to pick a topic that the listener/reader is already familiar with and then take it from there. The door is always open for further explanation.

I have new Muslim friends and they all started out with a misconception of Islam, followed by what they perceived an illogical brief explanation, followed by further study on their part and analysis... they went from no information to some information to complete information, it's a gradual process really so an explanation referencing a known theory of science is to get people thinking is merely a chink in the dam. Starts a dialogue see?

But of course, not everyone sees it the same. I wish it wasn't so, but I can't make you see what is sound logic to me but illogical to you and vice versa I suppose.


...And if they should see every sign, they will still not believe in it. Even when they come to you arguing with you, those who disbelieve say, "This is not but legends of the former peoples. 

And they prevent [others] from Him and are [themselves] remote from Him. And they do not destroy anyone except themselves, but they perceive [it] not.

~ [6:25,24, The Holy Quran]

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