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If you believe in God, refute this! (Page 10)

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Forever-KA

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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 7:38am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by Aya.

I'm not a hindu, but like they say, "Don't judge a book by it's cover."
You haven't read the Bible, Quran, etc. 
You don't know anything about anyone's religion !
& you're saying it's illogical ? Please !
First, get to know it, then judge !

 

Quran clashes with many scientific theories, and orders to kill non-Muslims. I would say, illogical and dangerous.
 
 
My advise to you would be to not expand the scope of this debate lol. It is always wise to say less and something which you can defend. You have asked an intelligent question lets not follow-up with statements like "Quran ORDERS to kill non-Muslims" lol. 
 
I can respond to this but I usually avoid religious debates because I have noticed people have set minds and therefore to me its waste of time.


Edited by King-Anu - 08 August 2012 at 7:52am

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Rehanism

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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 8:59am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Aya.

I'm not a hindu, but like they say, "Don't judge a book by it's cover."
You haven't read the Bible, Quran, etc. 
You don't know anything about anyone's religion !
& you're saying it's illogical ? Please !
First, get to know it, then judge !
Yes, I have read Quran along with Hadiths and Siras and I don't want to comment on how I felt about it lest we get this topic (and my ID) banned. I have read the Rig Veda, Gita, nearly a dozen Purans and Upanishads, Shankara's Bhasyas, Old Testament and New Testament as well (though partially), FYI. And I became more convinced that the world would have been a saner and better place without religions.

Anyways, lets not further this discussion about individual religions. This thread is about the logic (or lack of it) in theological claims about the supposed Creator of the Universe. Please stick to that.


Edited by Rehanism - 08 August 2012 at 9:23am

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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 9:31am | IP Logged
Originally posted by King-Anu

Being omnipotent does not mean one has to exercise that potency. Not preventing a wrong does not automatically mean one is not willing to prevent a wrong. It is not about willing here.
 
The framework of life in context of religion is that we are left to live our own lives. We are responsible for our actions in response to the situations we get. God does not control everything despite having the ability to do so and this is why we have a concept of heaven and hell where we will be judged according to situations we faced and how we dealt those situations. 
 
There is no paradox and therefore I refute this.

What's the meaning of this test? The test is stupid. What exactly is he testing? Faith? Parents also test their children time to time, but if they can foresee a danger, will they leave their children's back? I don't think so. And the test is rigged. For example, take psychopaths. They have physical problems, i.e. such brain chemistry that they don't have a conscience. they don't feel anything. So, how can you say killing is wrong of him, when he can't tell? 

And take children who have cancer or such disease, or even an adult. What are you testing by giving a good person pain? Faith? Should we start testing the faith of our loved ones by inflicting pain? That's sadistic, and I don't think a sadistic God is benevolent. If he is, then we should give domestic violence the status of "Godly" act. After all, we are testing the faith of our spouse.

And if he is designing humans, why put evil there? If you are designing a robot, will you program it to having destructive thoughts? If there is a designer, then he designed evil. Another sadistic characteristic.



Originally posted by King-Anu

Now I have not studied other sciences much however happen to go through biology a little. I know that at the level of cell membrane we have channels lined by gates which respond to voltage produced by exchange of ions (between inside and outside cell) through preceeding channels and in this manner a signal propogates. Now can you please enlighten me how the heck can that happen randomly? lol. From DNA to complex organs and system and their coordination just happened randomly because the condition and the envrionment was suited for that. What was the need that led to all this? lol.
 
The problem with atheists in my view is that they have closed their mind not only to idea of God but to idea of intelligence behind life. Now I don't care if you want to call that intelligence god, alien or goblin. But please don't tell me that this one structure (human body) which i happen to study and there are many other such structure came into existence as a result of a big bang and then random processess over billion of years. Its a joke. Its like saying a television came into existence randomly. This is a thought out design.
 
Lets settle on one thing. That life and whatever is happening is intelligence based. You can be open as to whats the intelligence. Now whatever it is it seems to me it will always be illogical from current view of science followed by logic. For example once you assume that DNA came somehow then all the structure make sense as they are coded in DNA

Then you run in the problem of creation of God. You go to all lengths, explaining how all this is so wonderful that how the heck can it happen randomly. But you don't continue the reasoning chain back to God. You say how can all these wonderful things exist without intelligent designer. Then answer how can such a entity which create all these wonderful things exist without intelligence creation? If all these things need a creator, then the creator of all these wonderful things also need a creator. So, who was behind him?

And I addressed your second point back in the thread, so allow me to copy paste because I am not gonna type that again. Smile

"The Universe came first and then we evolved because situation was right. Situation was not right so that we could come, we came because it was right. You are reversing cause and effect. When you put a water into a container, it takes the shape of container. You don't say the container was designed to hold the water in that exact shape, no. You say the water takes the shape of container. Likewise, we adapted and evolved according to the conditions, Universe didn't adapt for us. If there was a intelligent creator, why not create life everywhere in Universe? Because nobody was creating, we just randomly evolved in the right conditions. Now, only one right conditions in such a big area as our solar system and even galaxy, does it seem like intelligent creation? No, it appears random."

So, you see if and intelligent being will create Universe, he will make it full of life and not with such rigorous limits that large distance change kills you, asteroids floating through space that can bang into Earth any time, etc. So no, I can't settle on the fact that it seems intelligent creation. Because such low probabilities of life makes me conclude that it is all random.



Originally posted by King-Anu

In conclusion the idea of God is not that illogical once you agree that there is intelligence behind whatever is going on. I have assessed is from non-religious angle as well and I believe more the science discovers more stronger my belief that there is intelligence behind all this.

No, I gave you my reasoning why it seems there is randomness in what is happening. So, I still believe that the concept of God is illogical. And no, the more science develops, the more we will disprove the existence of God. Once God was the answer of everything, from rain to sun to food to seasons. Now, we have explained all that and limited it to creation of the Universe. And as we discover more answers, we will take away that credit too.

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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 9:36am | IP Logged
Originally posted by King-Anu

[QUOTE=Freethinker112]My advise to you would be to not expand the scope of this debate lol. It is always wise to say less and something which you can defend. You have asked an intelligent question lets not follow-up with statements like "Quran ORDERS to kill non-Muslims" lol. 
 
I can respond to this but I usually avoid religious debates because I have noticed people have set minds and therefore to me its waste of time.

Yeah, maybe I was too quick to say that. I have read it on internet, but not in detail. So, I should not comment unless I have full contextual knowledge. Sorry, My mistake. Embarrassed But, I think I can safely say that Quaran contradicts scientific theories.

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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 9:40am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Rehanism

Yes, I have read Quran along with Hadiths and Siras and I don't want to comment on how I felt about it lest we get this topic (and my ID) banned. I have read the Rig Veda, Gita, nearly a dozen Purans and Upanishads, Shankara's Bhasyas, Old Testament and New Testament as well (though partially), FYI. And I became more convinced that the world would have been a saner and better place without religions.

Anyways, lets not further this discussion about individual religions. This thread is about the logic (or lack of it) in theological claims about the supposed Creator of the Universe. Please stick to that.

Good for you! I also plan to read all religious texts someday, because then I will be able to answer the religious people in a better and informed way. And what I have noticed is that most are ignorant of their own texts, especially Hindus.

And I agree, let's not get off topic people! We are discussing existence of God here, not the merits(or its absence) of different religions.

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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 10:36am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Freethinker112

Originally posted by Rehanism

Yes, I have read Quran along with Hadiths and Siras and I don't want to comment on how I felt about it lest we get this topic (and my ID) banned. I have read the Rig Veda, Gita, nearly a dozen Purans and Upanishads, Shankara's Bhasyas, Old Testament and New Testament as well (though partially), FYI. And I became more convinced that the world would have been a saner and better place without religions.

Anyways, lets not further this discussion about individual religions. This thread is about the logic (or lack of it) in theological claims about the supposed Creator of the Universe. Please stick to that.

Good for you! I also plan to read all religious texts someday, because then I will be able to answer the religious people in a better and informed way. And what I have noticed is that most are ignorant of their own texts, especially Hindus.

And I agree, let's not get off topic people! We are discussing existence of God here, not the merits(or its absence) of different religions.

Actually it all began 3 years back. Previously I too never cared about studying religions deeply - I deemed it a waste of time and energy - I had previously had a light reading of Gita and Mahabharata. But one day I stumbled upon a video of a certain Zakir Nair, an Islamic apologist, who claims to prove that Quran contains all sort of scientific miracles and Islam is actually better than all other religions etc etc. First I liked his speeches - in fact I think I liked his modern attire and sober nature - that made him different from typical mullahs - and also the fact that he can quote from various religious text purely from memory. But as I began to watch his videos, his claims grew weirder by the day.  Once he would quote a silly verse of creation from the Quran and claim it to be an allusion for Big Bang, other times he would try to prove that Muhammad is already predicted in other religious scriptures or try to establish how its okay to sleep with a nine year old kid or how western women are raped because they wear less clothes and his rhapsodic audience would clap and cheer him. Obviously I found the claims absurd but I had no way of refuting him so I decided to read the texts myself and what I found shocked me to no end. I realized that Zakir Naik is an ace fraud who has mastered the art of sophistry and who earns his living simply by fooling the gullible believers.

I think you will find this one pretty enlightening (and entertaining too):
http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/NaikCampbellintro.htm

Slowly, through atheist websites like Faith Freedom and Nirmukta I found out that such con men are present in every damn religion, especially Hinduism, who misquote the texts or twist the meanings as per their convenience, use a plethora of logical fallacies to establish that their religion is primordial and full of scientific miracles and hence being more religious alone is the solution to all problems. And what is appalling is that they misuse scientific knowledge to further dogmatism and stupidity. Just google and you'll find hundreds of articles about *How Science proved the existence of Rama and Krishna?* or *How ancient Indians could fly Spacecrafts* etc. I think its very relevant for us, atheists and rationalists, to read religious texts if we truly wish to defeat religion and superstitions. We are less in numbers but unlike these frauds we have the power of truth and reason which can shatter even the best defenses of lies.



Edited by Rehanism - 08 August 2012 at 2:32pm

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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 11:30am | IP Logged
Often people assign random qualities to God like Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omni-Benevolent, Omnipresent etc etc, but I strongly suspect anyone of them hardly bothers to think their implications.

Omniscience:
Well if God is omniscient then it can be assumed that God's mind is perfectly static and stable and free of any emotions or disturbances at all. We emote or react to an event only because events come to us as a surprise. But an entity that has already witnessed/experienced past, present and future cannot possibly react to it or feel any emotions. However we see in various myths, God gets angry at those who doesn't obey his commands, God hates unbelievers, homosexuals, worshipers of other Gods etc, God is pleased when people worship him and so on. So precisely God emotes and feels hatred, anger, pleasure, jealousy etc, despite the fact he's omniscient and is perfectly aware of every event beforehand and himself is the author of the universe.

The idea that actions of mortals are able to alter God's moods, make him angry or please him suggests that God is not an independent entity. God is bound by karma.

Also the argument *God is testing you* makes no damn sense. Tests are taken to know and asses a person's merits and knowledge by someone who's not aware of them. However why would an omniscient entity, that is already aware of exact outcome, bother to test someone or carry out any sort of experiment? What is the use of such pointless test, unless God is a sadist or an idiot?

Omnipotence:
Omnipotence means infinite potential or infinite control. It literally translates to - Whatever actions or phenomenal changes take place in this universe(and possibly many others) takes place on account of God's power. The presence of an omnipotent authority implies that God and God alone is responsible for every single event in the universe. So if I say "God is an @$$#0/e" its not me but God who is actually responsible for abusing himself. Those who truly believe in an Omnipotent God cannot possibly accuse me of blasphemy - the blame goes to God. It is impossible that in the presence of an omnipotent authority any other responsible authorities can exist - and if I am responsible for my action that directly challenges God's omnipotence. Independence of authority negates Omnipotence and vice versa.

That implies God is responsible for every kind of actions that include rape, genocide, tsunami, blasphemy, disbelief, charity, earthquake, terrorism etc etc. The other entities, including we mortals and the evil bunny Satan, can only be instruments while God alone is the doer. And hence the concepts of karma, heaven, hell, damnation becomes redundant.

Also, if God is an omnipotent creator, then can God create an object so heavy that even God cannot lift it?

The Fallacy of Free will:
The most common reply of theists to the paradox of omnipotence is, "God has given you free will so he's not responsible for bad things". First of all, there is no such thing as Free Will. Will, Choice and Thoughts are always bound by causality. They can never be free. Infact true freedom cannot possibly exist in this universe that is bound by laws of causality. Secondly if God alone is omnipotent, i.e. God alone wields infinite potential, then where is the place for other individual potentials or authorities? Thirdly, if God has a will of his own, then God too must be bound by causality and cannot be free or absolute in any sense.

Omni-benevolent, possessor of all positive/good qualities:
We know that theist assign all possible good and positive qualities to their God/s like all-merciful, all-benevolent, all-loving etc etc. God is supposedly bereft of any negativity. But that creates two major problems:

1. If God is all-good and infinite at the same time, then logically Good is infinite or all-encompassing - but then that means that every thing in this universe must be homogeneously and isotropically good - so whence does bad things come? Surely an all-good God cannot be source of evil and since God is infinite as well, there should be no place left for evil in this universe.

2. Qualities like good, bad, positive, negative, dark, bright etc have no meaning in isolation. Qualities are always relativistic in nature. They make sense only with respect to another contrasting quality. How can you know what is good without knowing what is bad and how can you know what is bad unless you know what is good? How can you know what is positive unless you know another entity that is negative? 1 is positive WRT 0, again 1 is negative WRT 2, 2 is positive WRT -67, again 2 is negative WRT 4. For the existence of a positive quantity the existence of an equal and opposite negative quantity is essential.  So if God exists and God is all-positive, all-good, all-merciful etc, then God's existence is directly dependent on another entity, say Anti-God, who is all-negative, all-evil, all-vengeful etc etc and likewise the existence of Anti-God is directly dependent on the existence of God and Neither can exist without the other and thus God (or Anti-God) cannot possibly be supreme or absolute or omnipotent.




Edited by Rehanism - 08 August 2012 at 1:04pm

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Posted: 08 August 2012 at 1:32pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by King-Anu

Now I have not studied other sciences much however happen to go through biology a little. I know that at the level of cell membrane we have channels lined by gates which respond to voltage produced by exchange of ions (between inside and outside cell) through preceeding channels and in this manner a signal propogates. Now can you please enlighten me how the heck can that happen randomly? lol. From DNA to complex organs and system and their coordination just happened randomly because the condition and the envrionment was suited for that. What was the need that led to all this? lol.
 
The problem with atheists in my view is that they have closed their mind not only to idea of God but to idea of intelligence behind life. Now I don't care if you want to call that intelligence god, alien or goblin. But please don't tell me that this one structure (human body) which i happen to study and there are many other such structure came into existence as a result of a big bang and then random processess over billion of years. Its a joke. Its like saying a television came into existence randomly. This is a thought out design.
 
Lets settle on one thing. That life and whatever is happening is intelligence based. You can be open as to whats the intelligence. Now whatever it is it seems to me it will always be illogical from current view of science followed by logic. For example once you assume that DNA came somehow then all the structure make sense as they are coded in DNA
There is something called Natural Selection that is responsible for evolution of organisms. This can explain how rudimentary and simpler structures evolve as per surroundings into more complex and intelligent organisms. And no, its not exactly random or chaotic. In this universe every phenomena is governed by self sustaining laws. Now if you wish to refer to laws of universe collectively as God - just as Albert Einstein did - that's a different thing. So what's your idea of God? A person or a principle or a void? I guess when we speak of Creator God we normally mean a Personal God, a magic man, a big-daddy, addressed to as "He", who supposedly lives somewhere up in the sky and creates things out of nothing and answers peoples prayers or throws them to hell as per their faith or lack of it.

But I think you must ask a biologist for a more complete picture of evolution; I can't pretend to be an expert in this area. I never liked Biology in school.



Edited by Rehanism - 08 August 2012 at 3:27pm

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