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If you believe in God, refute this!

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

Joined: 16 May 2012

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Posted: 04 August 2012 at 6:32am | IP Logged

Theists, just address these two points:

 

The Epicurean Paradox

 

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

 

The Godless Equation

 

Who created God? If someone did then he is not so great now, is he? And I know that you will go the predicted path of "God doesn't need to be created and he has existed for all this time".

 

So, basically you agree that a "thing" can exist without being created.

 

So, why not remove God from the equation and apply this to the universe. The universe has always existed, and it didn't need to be created. After all that's what Occam's razor says, any explanation that makes fewest assumptions is more probable. So, I applied the belief you agreed to directly to the universe and voila! We have one less element to worry about. And if you not agree to the statement that something can exist without creation then answer, who created God?



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. : I am not trying to convert anyone. Just looking for a healthy debate. I promote everyone having his or her own viewpoint. But, I think it does all of us some good to reevaluate our beliefs from time to time, to answer ourselves that why we believe in some things. And it is also good to know some other viewpoints. that's why I have created this thread, for an interseting discussion. No flame wars, please! Smile



Edited by Freethinker112 - 05 August 2012 at 4:04am

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joie de vivre

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joie de vivre

Joined: 18 January 2007

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Posted: 04 August 2012 at 5:24pm | IP Logged
Nobody created God.

God, like the universe, has always existed. 

I'm irreligious but at the same time don't worship at the altar of scientism either. I don't believe science holds all the answers, and yes, I tend to believe that there is a higher power. I believe in the soul and in the immortality of the soul. I believe in karma and rebirth, and believe that the human soul is a manifestation of the universal spirit, which we call God for the want of better word, so yes, in a manner of speaking, I think that man was created in God's image in that we both - as well as pretty much everything else in the universe - share the same essence.

To answer your next question - why doesn't God prevent evil... Inasmuch as I subscribe to the theory of karma and in the theory of self-autonomy of the soul - which essentially means that the soul determines its own destiny in accordance to its karma, I don't think our souls want God to intervene, since that'll put a spanner in the works, won't it? 

That said, I have absolutely no truck whatsoever with organised religion of any persuasion or with Creationists. I think religion is divisive, hate-mongering, misogynistic and peddles bigotry and promotes segregation and superstition. As someone who believes in the concept of maya and how it shrouds the soul from our temporal self, I find it utterly baffling that people argue about things such as homosexuality, since, well, it's just another form of kama and if all sorts of sexuality are just another manifestation of the aforementioned maya, it seems daft to split hairs over which is the more acceptable sort. 

It's akin to arguing about which of the two illusions is more real, when the fact remains that both are illusions. The same mainspring underpins my opposition to the moral police brigade who oppose things like homosexuality, promiscuity, prostitution, drug use and other multifarious things they consider 'immoral', when they remain beholden to a different sort of worldly illusion themselves - driving ultra expensive cars, patronising eye-wateringly dear religious functions in temples, churches etc, buying more houses/clothes/jewellery/luxury goods than they truly need, scoring at the unfortunate and the poor, demonising people who've been unfortunate in life as scroungers and welfare queens, discriminating people on grounds of sexuality, race, gender, class, caste and a whole host of other things. 

It's like a pissing contest between two cheeks of the same arse, which is why religion is on the decline, at least in the Western world. We cannot save the humanity from itself and disabuse others of their illusions; that's a realisation people must come to of their own accord. But religion isn't the only vehicle that can lead to God. At the end of the day, it's more important to be a good human being - kind, generous, helpful, sympathetic, understanding, tolerant, inclusive and forgiving, characteristics over which neither theists nor agnostics nor atheists have an absolute monopoly. Just keep your beliefs to yourself, be nice to people, don't try to shove your idea of morality down others' throats. 


Edited by joie de vivre - 04 August 2012 at 5:27pm

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Heart

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Heart

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Posted: 05 August 2012 at 12:19am | IP Logged
I don't understand the difference. What is Universe to you, means existence of deity to someone else, but it means the same thing! Be it God or Universe both have always existed and have led to the existence of dinosaurs and now the human race. I am not talking about the clay molded figures that people pray too, I am talking about the belief of existence of something that is responsible for everything that happens. You can call it Universe if you want to, some people like to call it god. 
There are somethings even science is not able to prove, and this is exactly where it collides with beliefs. Finding about something that occurred millions of years before your existence is truly hard (nearly impossible) to determine, but the scientists are trying to figure it out. So while one is not sure about something like this, it is best not to force your beliefs on someone else. 


Edited by Heart - 05 August 2012 at 12:21am

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Ankithate

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Ankithate

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Posted: 05 August 2012 at 12:27am | IP Logged
Its Onw Wish To Belive in God Or Not !
no1 Can Force Any1 to Belive Or NOT to Believe.!

What You Have Mentions Are Ethics And Myths!
but i Do Get Ur Point. !

So , lets Just dun Let Ppl emotions Get Touched with anythng as enough can be said on this BUT Its simple ,i dun blv. I dunt thats it!

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Freethinker112

Freethinker112

IF-Sizzlerz

Freethinker112

Joined: 16 May 2012

Posts: 13809

Posted: 05 August 2012 at 3:13am | IP Logged
Originally posted by joie de vivre

Nobody created God.

God, like the universe, has always existed.

That's exactly what I asked. If God can exist without creations, so can Universe. We have the proof of Universe, we live in it. But there is no such evidence of God. So, how can someone claim God exist?


Originally posted by joie de vivre

I'm irreligious but at the same time don't worship at the altar of scientism either. I don't believe science holds all the answers, and yes, I tend to believe that there is a higher power. I believe in the soul and in the immortality of the soul. I believe in karma and rebirth, and believe that the human soul is a manifestation of the universal spirit, which we call God for the want of better word, so yes, in a manner of speaking, I think that man was created in God's image in that we both - as well as pretty much everything else in the universe - share the same essence.

Yes, science doesn't have all answers, yet. We have more answers than before, and in coming time we will have some more. But, at least science claims that it doesn't know everything, that there are questions unanswered. But, what science does believe, it provides full proof. It's better than somebody writing a holy book and people, instead of looking for answers, follow it as an answer for everything out there.
I also don't believe in the concept of soul, because as I said, there is no proof. Can you prove the existence of soul?


Originally posted by joie de vivre

To answer your next question - why doesn't God prevent evil... Inasmuch as I subscribe to the theory of karma and in the theory of self-autonomy of the soul - which essentially means that the soul determines its own destiny in accordance to its karma, I don't think our souls want God to intervene, since that'll put a spanner in the works, won't it?

So, you think that people that suffer in the world have selected that path for themselves, and that also in some divine form? Let me get this straight, children who die of cancer, people that are murdered, girl that are raped or abuse, they all chose that themselves? I think they may not agree with you.
And if you are saying that soul decides what we do in our lives, why the hell do they decide to do evil? We say evil is human compulsion. If souls are so divine, and know they will have to suffer for evil deeds, why do they do it? Do they enjoy suffering? Are they enjoying all this karma cycle?
And one more thing, how does soul come into existence? You say people die and soul takes birth again. If that was the case, the population should have remained constant. But once we are few hundred, now we are 7 billion. So, is there some soul factory for manufacturing?


Originally posted by joie de vivre

That said, I have absolutely no truck whatsoever with organised religion of any persuasion or with Creationists. I think religion is divisive, hate-mongering, misogynistic and peddles bigotry and promotes segregation and superstition. As someone who believes in the concept of maya and how it shrouds the soul from our temporal self, I find it utterly baffling that people argue about things such as homosexuality, since, well, it's just another form of kama and if all sorts of sexuality are just another manifestation of the aforementioned maya, it seems daft to split hairs over which is the more acceptable sort.

Originally posted by joie de vivre

It's akin to arguing about which of the two illusions is more real, when the fact remains that both are illusions. The same mainspring underpins my opposition to the moral police brigade who oppose things like homosexuality, promiscuity, prostitution, drug use and other multifarious things they consider 'immoral', when they remain beholden to a different sort of worldly illusion themselves - driving ultra expensive cars, patronising eye-wateringly dear religious functions in temples, churches etc, buying more houses/clothes/jewellery/luxury goods than they truly need, scoring at the unfortunate and the poor, demonising people who've been unfortunate in life as scroungers and welfare queens, discriminating people on grounds of sexuality, race, gender, class, caste and a whole host of other things.

Originally posted by joie de vivre

It's like a pissing contest between two cheeks of the same arse, which is why religion is on the decline, at least in the Western world. We cannot save the humanity from itself and disabuse others of their illusions; that's a realisation people must come to of their own accord. But religion isn't the only vehicle that can lead to God. At the end of the day, it's more important to be a good human being - kind, generous, helpful, sympathetic, understanding, tolerant, inclusive and forgiving, characteristics over which neither theists nor agnostics nor atheists have an absolute monopoly. Just keep your beliefs to yourself, be nice to people, don't try to shove your idea of morality down others' throats.
 

Agree with all of the above points. instead of division and hate, we should all live in peace as fellow humans. And I think organized religion works against this idea.


Edited by Freethinker112 - 05 August 2012 at 3:49am

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posted: 05 August 2012 at 4:05am | IP Logged
NOTE : I am not trying to convert anyone. Just looking for a healthy debate. I promote everyone having his or her own viewpoint. But, I think it does all of us some good to reevaluate our beliefs from time to time, to answer ourselves that why we believe in some things. And it is also good to know some other viewpoints. that's why I have created this thread, for an interseting discussion. No flame wars, please! Smile

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-bharti-Samraat_92

Freethinker112

IF-Sizzlerz

Freethinker112

Joined: 16 May 2012

Posts: 13809

Posted: 05 August 2012 at 4:11am | IP Logged
Originally posted by bloodysunday

Live and let live. Why refute it? I don't mind atheists as long as they don't belittle or look down on those who are of a different mindset and do believe in God. "Your God is better than mine" "I PWNed you with my argument" "You are a delusional fool for believing in God" etc are some of the mindsets and reasons religious wars are so rampant. 

I don't look down at anybody for following religion, nor do I interfere. But I do consider extremists stupid. people who go the level of killing for religion. I also get angry when my family interfere in my atheism. Read the note I added at the bottom of OP. I do not want to change people. Just have some good discussion. Smile

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Freethinker112

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Freethinker112

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Posts: 13809

Posted: 05 August 2012 at 4:12am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Ankithate

Its Onw Wish To Belive in God Or Not !
no1 Can Force Any1 to Belive Or NOT to Believe.!

What You Have Mentions Are Ethics And Myths!
but i Do Get Ur Point. !

So , lets Just dun Let Ppl emotions Get Touched with anythng as enough can be said on this BUT Its simple ,i dun blv. I dunt thats it!

Totally agree. Please see the bottom of OP. Not forcing anyone to change beliefs, just having healthy conversation. Smile

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