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Jhalak Dikhhla Ja 5
Jhalak Dikhhla Ja 5

Superficiality and tricks in dance?[ DT NOTE P16] (Page 7)

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Posted: 19 July 2012 at 11:02pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by AreYaar


I saw that performance too and felt she's super conscious...you can SEE her preparing for each step...it shows on her face, in her body language...lack of flow...and lol yes I also found it comical the way she was attempting to be "angry" and "fierce"...she has two expressions max and I think I've seen both of those expressions in Luck by Chance in that airhead bimbo role she hadLOL...the doll face as you said...ppl are mistakening her widening her eyes for expressions?LOL...that's about all she can do...no expressiveness in the face otherwise...she's a trained Kathak dancer? Shocking...does not show even remotely in her "dancing" if it can be called that...anyways superficiality rules as Pallo pointed out in her first post.

LOL even Dada is not so generous with his 'kya baats' no matter how loopy he is otherwise...but then anyways JDJ ka standard of dancing can't match up to DID...it's always been more gimmicky...never more so than this season.

Ahh that Shakti performance...best paso doble on Indian TV yet...even now I get goosebumps watching that ending bit when she kills him and does that walk...perfect combo of FIERCE GRACE.
Pallo khud post banaa ke bhaag gayi hai abLOL...
OKay. This is going to be a crazy long post, lots of quoting. I'm sorry for that folks.
@bold
EXACTLY! I could see her preparing for the steps. I didn't find anything scary, hatred, fierce in her facial expressions or eyes or lips or any part of her face. I only saw nervousness, trying to remember the next step. There was a bit in the middle where she looks at Salman and then it's as if she remembers..oh I have to look fierce..let me attempt that ConfusedLOL
 
Oops, I meant to add: dada's kya baat * 10 = randomness of JDJ.
 
That Shakti-Amar one toh is FAB. Terence surpassed himself wiht that one. The end is just SOOO AMAZING. I can't even put it in words.
 
Haha.. I can see that. Pallo humein phasa ke kat li LOLLOL 
 
Originally posted by quarky

And the Paso Doble? Where was acrobatics? And latin dances weren't her forte - she had to learn them in less than a week from Salman, so maybe it was as good as Shakti's ones that was choreographed by a master like Terrence. But, that was still wonderful. They remained mostly true to what is expected of Paso Doble. 
They only get a week in DID as well. Shakti's forte is contemporary, not Paso Doble or latin dances. I'm comparing the dancing btw, NOT the choreography. Terence is on a whole different level that Salman can't reach. I think its a fair comparison because both Shakti and Isha are PROFESSIONAL dancers. And, its not like Shakti is famous for her facial expressions either. But my point was that her expressions are FIERCE in the Paso Doble and a bit scary..the whole I'm going to get you now and you won't even know what just hit you. Isha's were not fierce at all--like I said above, the preparation could be seen. But I can see that we might have to agree to disagree here.
 
Comparisons may not be allowed in this forum, but when the performances are similar and there's a a debate on whether or not it's inspired..then I think there's bound to be comparisons and should be allowed. So far the discussion is pretty civil..nothing nasty here, just disagreements. I hope it manages to stay this way.
 
FoxyyyCleopatra, so much to quote and agree with in yours. Think I'll need a new post LOL
 


Edited by chocolover89 - 19 July 2012 at 11:02pm

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Posted: 19 July 2012 at 11:16pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by chocolover89


 
Originally posted by quarky

And the Paso Doble? Where was acrobatics? And latin dances weren't her forte - she had to learn them in less than a week from Salman, so maybe it was as good as Shakti's ones that was choreographed by a master like Terrence. But, that was still wonderful. They remained mostly true to what is expected of Paso Doble. 
They only get a week in DID as well. Shakti's forte is contemporary, not Paso Doble or latin dances. I'm comparing the dancing btw, NOT the choreography. Terence is on a whole different level that Salman can't reach. I think its a fair comparison because both Shakti and Isha are PROFESSIONAL dancers. And, its not like Shakti is famous for her facial expressions either. But my point was that her expressions are FIERCE in the Paso Doble and a bit scary..the whole I'm going to get you now and you won't even know what just hit you. Isha's were not fierce at all--like I said above, the preparation could be seen. But I can see that we might have to agree to disagree here.
 
Comparisons may not be allowed in this forum, but when the performances are similar and there's a a debate on whether or not it's inspired..then I think there's bound to be comparisons and should be allowed. So far the discussion is pretty civil..nothing nasty here, just disagreements. I hope it manages to stay this way.
 
FoxyyyCleopatra, so much to quote and agree with in yours. Think I'll need a new post LOL
 

I expected that when I wrote it, but you have to admit, Shakti has a degree in dance from Terrence's Institute - ie. she's a trained dancer in many of the western/latin forms (the degree curriculum has ALL the MAJOR western forms included) which is what she did and excelled at - who had her teacher as her mentor in DID. Isha is super flexible, but she's not trained in the western forms that Salman is making her do. 

I thought Isha's expressions in the paso doble was spot on. I may not be too amazed by Madhuri and Karan as the judges, but I definitely trust Remo to know what he says - and I agree with him on Isha-Salman everytime.

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Posted: 19 July 2012 at 11:30pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by FoxxyCleopatra

For me Isha-Salman's performances have generally been low impact... I just never feel the "wow"

Technically Isha might be moving perfectly, but there is a soul that lacks in their numbers.  This week there was a thousand tricks, but no still no emotions.  IMO a horrific mahaul can be created in the most mundane of settings, and in fact can be more horrific that way... doing all these typical tricks in nothing new or horrifying.  I was honestly irritated at the end of the performance... no clear story, disconnected acrobatic dance steps, no tuning with the song/lyrics, no flow, no dynamic between the man and woman, over the top costumes and make-up, and that damn annoying red light.  I sincerely hated that light, it washed out everything, no details were visible!  I could not understand what was so special in it aside from a few of her contortions..!
And that's exactly why I think Shibani is better. I connect more to hers. She has expressions, is graceful, she dances with more soul. Isha is awesome at acrobatics, and some of her contortions and the ease with which she does them is phenomenal, but that's about it. The soul is missing I guess.

This was a fantastic chance for Salman to let Isha try this crazy thing called expressions, but instead he went for rather run of the mill trickery.  I'm no choreographer, but if he had to do the betrayal theme and use that song, he could have done it a very different way...  He could have had the stage and costumes very simple... Isha looking kind of pale in a slightly ragged dress, leaving us unsure if she is really dead or if he killed her emotionally.  He could have channeled the emotions of the song... of a pleading, wondering, and nearly resigned woman dancing with him, trying to be close again, coupled with vengeful expressions from her when he turns around... as if she is ready to kill him at any moment. He could have shown torn expressions of his own, wanting to go back to her and wanting to hate her at the same time.  Instead it was just a very superficial performance...
You just made a whole performance that could have been really amazing..and this whole debate of whether its inspired or not wouldn't even have shown up! PLUS it would have been a PERFECT chnace to shut everyone up who thinks her expressions are very weak. I would have LOVED to see this kind of performance truth be told. With the right dancers/choreographers it could be phenomenal.

Super agree with the similarities to Sushant and Shampa!  Noticed it immediately when watching the episode!  The very obvious copies...
> The exact same theme of a man betraying and the woman coming back from the dead for revenge
> The camera tricks... this is something the choreographer sets in these circumstances... he went for the exact same effect of him looking around and then the woman jumps on him
> One step was the same, though I usually wouldn't count that because nobody really has a trademark on any step, I found it amusing that he used in the exact same type of performance
.
Agree! NOBODY is saying the performance is copied because one step is the same! Jeez. If that were the case every single performance would be "copied" from another. One pirouette..oh it's the same as another one. That's ridiculous. The one step comes up only because like you said it comes up in the same type of performance--in which concept is the same, the camera angles are very similar form that same performance. On top of that, the 2 songs come from the same movie (this is also only an issue because the type of performance is similar). THAT is the ONLY reason why that one step being the same is mentioned.  Otherwse who cares..people so the same steps in all sorts of different dances. I'm not saying Isha-Salman's performance is 100% copied from Sushant-Shampa's...it's not. But it's inspired from theirs..there's nothing wrong with being inspired, but at least don't make it so obvious and if you do well..the right thing to do is give credit.

The funny thing in all of this was how unnecessary it was for him to copy!  In a way it was almost forced!  There are 1001 things to do in the horror theme, tons of ways to interpret the song, yet he went for the same thing... but it wasn't done nearly as well.  SS aced on the story - from mundane, to shock, to double shock lol... the emotions and expressions were convincing... there were moments that really got you - when he dropped her from the stairs, when he gave that evil smile, when Shampa came back out, etc... the tuning between both of them... incorporation of meaty dance segments... everything was considered and thought through so well.
Loved everything you just said about SS's performance. Totally agree..that's exactly what I mean by it was a complete performance--Everything was thought-out. It was a good story that was very well portrayed through dance first and acting. The choreography was much CLEARER, easy to follow, there were moments, the song fit perfectly.

Disappointing to know that what was presented by Isha and Salman is now considered the ultimate peformance...

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Posted: 19 July 2012 at 11:41pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by chocolover89

Originally posted by FoxxyCleopatra


Super agree with the similarities to Sushant and Shampa!  Noticed it immediately when watching the episode!  The very obvious copies...
> The exact same theme of a man betraying and the woman coming back from the dead for revenge
> The camera tricks... this is something the choreographer sets in these circumstances... he went for the exact same effect of him looking around and then the woman jumps on him
> One step was the same, though I usually wouldn't count that because nobody really has a trademark on any step, I found it amusing that he used in the exact same type of performance
.
Agree! NOBODY is saying the performance is copied because one step is the same! Jeez. If that were the case every single performance would be "copied" from another. One pirouette..oh it's the same as another one. That's ridiculous. The one step comes up only because like you said it comes up in the same type of performance--in which concept is the same, the camera angles are very similar form that same performance. On top of that, the 2 songs come from the same movie (this is also only an issue because the type of performance is similar). THAT is the ONLY reason why that one step being the same is mentioned.  Otherwse who cares..people so the same steps in all sorts of different dances. I'm not saying Isha-Salman's performance is 100% copied from Sushant-Shampa's...it's not. But it's inspired from theirs..there's nothing wrong with being inspired, but at least don't make it so obvious and if you do well..the right thing to do is give credit.


 
Superlike. Thanks for summarizing all the arguments and views in a nutshell, choco. (himani?)

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Posted: 19 July 2012 at 11:50pm | IP Logged
Let me first state that I don't know much about dancing. But then now a days most of the art forms have a lot of gray area same as music or painting etc. It is the reason why martial arts and gymnastics are choreographed and not simply performed, to many Kalari is martial art and to many it is also a dance form. Same with Malkham, it is an exercise machine as well as a dance form, so I would not make a sweeping statement if this is dance or not. What I mean to say as a viewer I enjoyed the act and thats about it. Rest I leave it to Remo and Madhuri to judge because they are much more knowledgable and experienced in dancing than I am. Let me draw a parallel, I love a movie when it entertains me. I am not concerned weather it has brilliant acting or a wonderful direction or exception editing and camera work. I only enjoy the end product and thats about it. I enjoyed their performance more than SS for it had more horror factor for me.

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Posted: 20 July 2012 at 12:00am | IP Logged
Originally posted by quarky


I expected that when I wrote it, but you have to admit, Shakti has a degree in dance from Terrence's Institute - ie. she's a trained dancer in many of the western/latin forms (the degree curriculum has ALL the MAJOR western forms included) which is what she did and excelled at - who had her teacher as her mentor in DID. Isha is super flexible, but she's not trained in the western forms that Salman is making her do. 

I thought Isha's expressions in the paso doble was spot on. I may not be too amazed by Madhuri and Karan as the judges, but I definitely trust Remo to know what he says - and I agree with him on Isha-Salman everytime.
Oh I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. My fault then..I should have been clearer, especially with the "I'm comparing the dancing not the choreography." Let me be clearer now: I'm not comparing Isha and Shakti's Paso Doble technique (Shakti's is FAR better but that's not the point here). I'm comparing their facial expressions ONLY...because you used that performance as an example of Isha's great expressions.
 
I was using Shakti's expressions in her Paso Doble to show what's fierce...and how Isha's aren't anywhere near there for me. Considering Isha is a trained classical dancer, I'm fairly certain it's Kathak...I'm sorry, but as someone who's done Kathak for 4 years..I find it appalling that her expressions are that bad. Its not a case of them being too loud..but rather not existing only. Any classical dance form and you will at least learn to emote something with your face.
 
Honestly. I don't think highly of the judging of this show but Remo and I don't agree on much so I'm not surprised if my view differs from his again.
Anyways, I can tell that we have differing opinions and aren't really going to agree. So let's just agree to disagree here..
 
@Nikita
Yes I'm Himani LOL


Edited by chocolover89 - 19 July 2012 at 11:59pm

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Posted: 20 July 2012 at 1:14am | IP Logged
I promised myself I would quit this forum after my last discussion, but I just could not resist responding to this thread...

Thank you!

I had sort of taken it for granted that this gimmicky stuff was what passed for dance on TV these days and let it go, admitting that if these were the parameters then Isha was indeed beyond compare. But after reading your thread, I found an outlet for my growing doubts. What Isha did last week was no doubt impressive, but was it dance?

In other discussion threads, I have been agreeing that she is technically, physically perfect, which I believe she is, but I cannot deny that her performances lack soul and meaning to me as an audience member, which I think is a vital aspect of any dance. It is not just on JDJ that I have noticed this either. I have seen her perform live as well, and though she is undoubtedly unparalleled in skill..her aerial dancing is the best in the country, I have not seen much come from within Isha herself as a creative individual and I expected more from her for all her years of training and professional performance. To me she often looks like she is dancing for the sake of it, rather than to communicate a story or engage the audience. Her motivation to dance seems to be, "what more can I do with my body?" in the sense that she seems focused more on what she can do over what it can do to the audience. 

To give credit where it is due, the performance did creep me out but the image that stuck with me was not Isha's movements or her expressions, but more a still image of her look in the performance...in short her makeup, those contact lenses and the lighting. And you can't deny that costuming and presentation is a part of dance, but the issue for me was that it overshadowed the physical, movement aspect of dance in this piece and allowed Salman to keep Isha in her comfort zone while appearing to think out of the box, or out of the bag if you will. LOL

I have never watched JDJ before, because I usually avoid dance reality shows, but I am shocked at the possibility that this act is lifted from a piece choreography last year, even if only in essence! There are indeed a lot of ways they could have chosen to go with the theme of horror, Isha as a seductive vampiress, maybe? Corpse bride? Eek, imagine her in dulhan attire, forcing Salman to marry her! Considering she is classically trained, they could have even taken inspiration from Chandramukhi/Bhool Bhulaiyya. In any case, the very fact that there are similarities between the two acts is sad to me.

That being said, I just have to give a shout out to Shampa; the woman is utterly brilliant! I was already impressed by her work this season; the way she has brought Gurmeet round from his first few abysmal performances to his pretty fantastic robotic latin one, is something to behold! Now after watching her work with Sushant, I am even more her fan than ever! She is truly a creative visionary. Clap

Also, I love Shibani! She is definitely the dark horse this season. Her energy, her expressions and her clean execution make her a delight to watch when she is dancing. She just draws you in and invites you to have fun with her...and do I ever! I think my favourite performance of hers is still that delicious tango! Her expressions were so playful and yet intense. You can tell she is having a blast with her dancing, and really that is half the battle!


Edited by Samanalyse - 20 July 2012 at 1:18am

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Posted: 20 July 2012 at 1:46am | IP Logged

I have totally 2 left feet in my mind whn it comes to dancing and also this is the first time I'm watching a dance reality show. Watched the vid of Sushant and Shampa's dance which was posted in the thread. Yes they too danced beautifully, but the kind of awestruck reaction I had watching Isha-Salman's performance was absent. I usually use the word "performance" in place of dance, coz it's not simply dance, otherwise der would hv been no need of props, camera angles, lighting etc. if it was just the dance that was being performed. It's the whole performance. And der Isha-Salman score for me. The whole conceptualization, presentation and performance by the duo is captivating for me, a totally layman viewer.

Also I tend to watch the episodes much later and have already read the POVs and comments posted here. So I knew tht their performance was very good. Still I was taken by suprise frm teh first step of Isha steping out of the bag itself. So the performance did horrify me, which is guess was thepurpose anyways.

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