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insouciance

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insouciance

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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 12:53pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by mkzara

You r right of course sometimes the woman is to blame but her husband does not have the right to hit her. i dont care how juvenile pia is but that doesn't give Pushkar the right to hit her, the same way a woman shudn't hit her husband. Physical abuse is not right from any partner. If you are saying that it's okay for a husband to hit his wife when he finds out about her infidelity then an extreme version wud be that he is right when he kills her in the name of honor.

But a slap and a murder isnt the same....SmileMurder is the result when a person has absolutely no self restraint...But then, at the end of the day everyone is human....and I guess we can give everyone a small marginSmile...anger  is pardonable, as long as it doesnt cross limits...beating up the wife ruthlessly is not pardonable,...Now consider this case...the girl's parents are dead...she's on drugs, and her guardian happens to be say her husband(a far fetched assumption but whatever)...Now I wouldnt really consider it a crime or an abuse when he slaps her in order to prevent her from doing drugs....as I said, the context is important.....Now In Ksbkbt, meera killed savita(i believe..i dont watch the soap but i read something on those lines)...and when mihir uncovers the truth, and if he slaps meera, i wouldnt call it "abuse"......A woman can be pious as well as vicious.....

It is not the duty of your spouse to correct you, it is the duty of ur parents. relationship with one's parents is different from what one has with a husband.Your parents have a right to teach u right from wrong, but ur spouse is an equal so they dont get to correct u or tell u what to do. Sure a spouse should tell u what they think but they have no right to correct u, coerce u or force u to do what they think is right.

Coertion is wrong, but correction and coertion cannot be tarred with the same brush....correction anc coertion arent synonymous....I do believe that a husband or a wife shoulder the responsibility to correct the spouse if he/she's on the wrong track.....What if the parents are dead..does that mean the spouse turns a blind eye only because the parent isnt alive to correct the spouse.....Then that would mean that the husband/wife doesnt care a damn about the spouse, which is WRONG!!...That would mean that there is no mutual love in the marriage, and such a marriage isnt a solid one...and one more thing, are you saying that its not right for a spouse to coerce but its allright for a parent to coerce/slap/beatQuestion..That's such a cockamamie beliefConfused

 A father slapping his daughter is different because she is his daughter, his responsibility to teach right from wrong. 

So isnt it the duty of the husband to teach the wife what is right and what is wrong incase she isnt able to differentiate between the two????Dont you think a husband must love his wife as much as she is loved by her father???and with love comes responsibility.....

 physical abuse is not the answer and what Pushkar did was abuse because he like every chavinistic pig on the planet hit his wife when he didn't like what she said and then threatened to break her face. i dont see it is as something that can be forgiven. I also dont think that ur spouse has the right/responsibility to correct they have a right/responsibility to tell u what they feel is right but they have no right to make u follow it.

No, CHAUVINISTS beat up their wives as they consider them inferior to them...MCP's consider women inferior to them, they dont give them any respect, they thwart their careers, and try to opress the wife...that wasnt what Pushkar did...he slapped his wife because what she said was inappropriate..hell, she says that she should have married the sugar daddy,...she says this infront of her husband....that was definitely wrong....people do tend to always side the fairer sex, but then when the female in question is on the wrong path, it becomes the duty of the husband to correct her...I never said that the slapping incident was not at all wrong..I only said that it is pardonable as Pia was mainly at fault......Now had he slapped her, just to voice his chauvinism, I would say that he ought be skinned....



Edited by Buffie - 18 June 2006 at 2:16pm

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baby-*bunny

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baby-*bunny

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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 4:36pm | IP Logged
if a women is pushing her luck going over the top, sl*gin off her husband and that then i think she needs a good beating but otherwise no man should hit a women but at the sametime a women should also stay within the limits...........

what about vice versa if it was the other way around the women abusing her husband which in reality does happen sometimes how come not many people sympatise for the man?

i guess people make assumptions to quick of a mans mentality and a women nature cause they don't always have to be the same as every women or every man


Edited by baby-*bunny - 18 June 2006 at 4:38pm

Aparna_BD

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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 5:14pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Buffie

.and one more thing, are you saying that its not right for a spouse to coerce but its allright for a parent to coerce/slap/beatQuestion..That's such a cockamamie beliefConfused

So isnt it the duty of the husband to teach the wife what is right and what is wrong incase she isnt able to differentiate between the two????Dont you think a husband must love his wife as much as she is loved by her father???and with love comes responsibility.....


Buffie i completely disagree with you that the husband can use force if the wife is wrong to subdue her and teach her whats right.

 I agree with Zara that a parent- child relationship is much different from a husband- wife relationship. Its a different aspect here :  Parents are the childs GUARDIAN. The child is too immature to handle responsibility and make adult decisions.

As for a husband , he is NEVER NEVER NEVER your guardian. Please get this right. No matter in any circumstance he is NEVER your guardian. Even if the spouse is not working and is dependant on her man financialy or emotionally. By calling her husband the guardian you are already reducing her status to the one she had when she was a child and needed direction from her parents.

As a wife she may be wayward and needs direction, but then as a friend and her equal a husband should guide her . NOT AS HER GUARDIAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You've got to talk it out as an equal. How will use of violence ever put sense in some wayward adults head????????????? Don't forget the woman, the wife is an adult not a child. Neither will a woman ever be able to put sense in her husband by physically abusing him nor will the husband. If words and counselling do not help. Then nothing will. Certainly not violence.

Please do read my response below to baby*bunny as the same goes for you too. I didn't want to repeat myself.






Edited by Aparna_BD - 18 June 2006 at 6:16pm

Aparna_BD

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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 5:24pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by baby-*bunny

if a women is pushing her luck going over the top, sl*gin off her husband and that then i think she needs a good beating but otherwise no man should hit a women but at the sametime a women should also stay within the limits...........

Wow this completely puts women in Medieval ages.Clap Now you believe women should stay within limits. Who decides these limits????? The man ??? He decides what he can tolerate and what he can't??  And if a woman is "pushing her luck" as you say she deserves a beating. What sort of a luck is she pushing?? When does she deserve this beating? I think you make a wonderfull case for justifying honor killing.ClapClap

The man hears a rumour that his daughter had an affair with the neighbour's son. Well she pushed her luck and deserves death or at least a good beating. Right?
The man finds his wife a nag as she tells him to spend more time with his family. Well he had a tough day and all she did was nag him . She deserves a good beating.
The man and wife are talking, but the wife is highly argumentative. He just can't tell her to shut up as she doesn't listen. She deserves a good beating.
The man finds that his wife is spending his money on frivilous things like maybe at the spa. Well that was absolutely a spend thrift behaviour on her part. She deserves is a good beating.

what about vice versa if it was the other way around the women abusing her husband which in reality does happen sometimes how come not many people sympatise for the man?
People are most sympathetic to a man who has a bad wife. I am not sure what experience you are talking of when a man in a similar situation of abuse is taken lightly. It would immediately be family and friends who'll advise you to divorce the woman in such cases. But in the case of a woman people do not advise divorce. Because they feel it can be worked out. Sadly men who use physical force can rarely change their ways.

i guess people make assumptions to quick of a mans mentality and a women nature cause they don't always have to be the same as every women or every man



Buffie and baby*bunny

If women don't change their way of thinking i certainly belive they deserve the spanking in all these cases. If its justified to them then why should the womens rights organisations care !

Men will find millions ways to justify their actions. By agreeing with these ways we are already putting them on a strong foot hold and making the woman his inferior. A woman is physically weaker (in majority of the cases) than a man and he already has a ace over her. She can not beat him up if he drinks, cheats, abuses her or does any thing bad. So why should a man ? A man and his wife are equal and they should treat each other as equal.

If a situation arises when either one is behaving un reasonably or is wrong. Then its words that will help. It has to be counselling or a talk. If you believe you will make your partner see your way by using physical force. You have a problem. Physical force will only subjugate the person not make him/ her understand whats right and what is wrong. So if all you want to do is subjugate your partner then you are doing fine. Because using force will not make her/ him come around and see what is correct.


Edited by Aparna_BD - 18 June 2006 at 6:17pm

insouciance

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insouciance

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Posted: 18 June 2006 at 11:48pm | IP Logged

 

Originally posted by baby-*bunny

if a women is pushing her luck going over the top, sl*gin off her husband and that then i think she needs a good beating but otherwise no man should hit a women but at the sametime a women should also stay within the limits...........

Wow this completely puts women in Medieval ages.Clap Now you believe women should stay within limits. Who decides these limits????? The man ??? He decides what he can tolerate and what he can't?? 

 no,NOT  the man..the society...each human must abide by certain rules of the society....and If a woman or a man conducts himself/herself in a manner that is just so very heinous, he/she ought be corrected by the spouse....We must realize that there are times when women act in the most repugnant and reprehensible manner..... for a hypothetical example, suppose a wife was extremely spoilt in her childhood..her parents were running behind money and in the process forgot to inculcate any good values within her...she's diabolically WICKED and never misses an oppurtunity to malign her MIL(who is a benign old woman)....and she badgers her husband to shove his parents into an oldage home......he has put up with the crap for say years....and her "guardians" dont care a damn and make no effort to drill sense into her head.....one day , things go really overboard, she has crossed all limits of tolerance, she has insulted his parents using the the most detestable words...and should the husband brook all the tongue lashing targetted at his parents??Dead..doesnt she deserve a slap??????..actually NO, because such women are not worthy of the slapDead(if the husband happenes to be an altruist  otherwise)...There are women who fake pregnancies on television....just to cheat their husbands....Dont they deserve a slap??...and another thing is we are talking about a television serial here...and 95% of what is shown on television is quite preposterous......Dont the vamps who plot and leave no stone unturned to ruin the family deserve a slap????Stereotyping wouldnt do...Saying that men have to tolerate whatever his wife does only because she is a "WOMAN" sounds so asinineConfused....In that way, we too end up being chauvinists....When a woman kills a man for self defense, she is exculpated,But the society would never believe it if a man ever accuses a woman for sexual harrassment(It does happen)........ 85% of the women suffer due to the male chauvinistic attitude, the remaining  15% too ride on a wave of sympathy and are protected EVEN if they are at fault only as the majority suffer

 

And if a woman is "pushing her luck" as you say she deserves a beating. What sort of a luck is she pushing?? When does she deserve this beating? I think you make a wonderfull case for justifying honor killing.ClapClap

No, honour killing connotes barbarism and beastlinessDeadDead...and that, is not pardonable......your question"When does she deserve this beating"......she deserves it when she has not been brought up properly and thus has no respect for the elders, or for values, or for ethics and continually  insults and maligns the elders which would go on to have a very pernicious effect on her kids.....She deserves a censuring(or if needed a slap) if she's on drugs and refuses to co-operate with her rehabilitation....

The man hears a rumour that his daughter had an affair with the neighbour's son. Well she pushed her luck and deserves death or at least a good beating. Right?

Yes...If the daughter is allready married, and if she is sleeping with her neighbour, she deserves a slap from her father(and husband)....You may call it her choice, but if she really has not even an ounce of interest left in her marriage, she can as well call it quits...But cheating on the husband, by sleeping with another guy in his abscence and then putting on the garb of a "perfect wife" when he's around  is NOT pardonable....such an act by her is nothing short of an anathema to the family...yet, I do strongly believe that honour killing is WRONG, but a slap at the spur of the moment is not wrong!!....and even otherwise, if the daughter isnt married, and yet has a platonic affair with her neighbour, who happens to be a hooligan or a rapist or a molester, and if the father slaps her, I wouldnt call that "WRONG"


The man finds his wife a nag as she tells him to spend more time with his family. Well he had a tough day and all she did was nag him . She deserves a good beating.

LOL, the problem IS that sometimes we descend into portentous defending.....We invariably tend to sympathise with the fairer sex....As I have earlier said, "THE CONTEXT IS VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY salient......a nagging wife" DEFINITELY DOES NOT" deserve a slap......But a characterless woman who has cheated her husband and has slept with his friend behind his back deserves a slap........


The man and wife are talking, but the wife is highly argumentative. He just can't tell her to shut up as she doesn't listen. She deserves a good beating.The man finds that his wife is spending his money on frivilous things like maybe at the spa. Well that was absolutely a spend thrift behaviour on her part. She deserves is a good beating.

again, the context is extremely significant....and I never said that wives who irritating/nagging/carping/grumbling/importuning/whining etc etc DO NOT WARRANT A BEATING.....but there are certain other  contexts DO!




what about vice versa if it was the other way around the women abusing her husband which in reality does happen sometimes how come not many people sympatise for the man?
People are most sympathetic to a man who has a bad wife. I am not sure what experience you are talking of when a man in a similar situation of abuse is taken lightly. It would immediately be family and friends who'll advise you to divorce the woman in such cases. But in the case of a woman people do not advise divorce. Because they feel it can be worked out. Sadly men who use physical force can rarely change their ways.

Women too are advised to leave their husbandsSmile...But many women chose not to......similarly there are men who too chose to work on their marriage instead of calling it quits.....stereotyping wouldnt do...abusers, be it a man or a woman, are definitely on the wrong sideThumbs Down


i guess people make assumptions to quick of a mans mentality and a women nature cause they don't always have to be the same as every women or every man

i agree with bunny on this oneSmile


Originally posted by Aparna_BD



Buffie and baby*bunny

If women don't change their way of thinking i certainly belive they deserve the spanking in all these cases. If its justified to them then why should the womens rights organisations care !

Point is, the women activists are basically there to help out the down trodden woman....but there are cases when its the man who is  opressed... we should not  tar every man with the same brush, and the same applies to women too......there are women who are almost abject in their respect for their  wonderful in-laws...There are women who tyrannize men.......


Men will find millions ways to justify their actions. By agreeing with these ways we are already putting them on a strong foot hold and making the woman his inferior.

definitely NOT.....!!!!We are being very biased when it comes to men...sometimes, men do not have to justify their actions, because they happen to be right....and by defending a man who is right, I am not putting men as a whole on a strong footholdSmile....When a man is truly wrong( like if he  brutally abuses his wife for dowry), then I wouldnt spare the manAngry.....But if he happens to be one of unquestionable veracity, and if it the woman in question who is at fault, then i wouldnt defend the owoman only because she is a "WOMAN"

 A woman is physically weaker (in majority of the cases) than a man and he already has a ace over her. She can not beat him up if he drinks, cheats, abuses her or does any thing bad. So why should a man ? A man and his wife are equal and they should treat each other as equal.

YES......But you are throwing light only certain cases....usually its the male who is abusive, and thus we ALWAYS sympathise with the woman and dont really care as to whether she was right or wrong.....repeating myself, I am not defending the brutal assaulting or men flaunting their aggression by harrassing women or battering wivesAngry.......


If a situation arises when either one is behaving un reasonably or is wrong. Then its words that will help. It has to be counselling or a talk. If you believe you will make your partner see your way by using physical force. You have a problem. Physical force will only subjugate the person not make him/ her understand whats right and what is wrong. So if all you want to do is subjugate your partner then you are doing fine. Because using force will not make her/ him come around and see what is correct.


But do you think human beings think so much at the spur of the moment...suppose a man finds his wife in a compromising position with his friend, do you think he would be tranquil, and would serenly say"hey get dressed..lets talk about it when we reach home"....It would be an understatement to say that he would be shocked out of his wits....He would be wallowing in hurt, deceit,the shattering of his mammoth trust..Is it possible for the husband to stomach this fornicationDead...I mean, how  could he be pacific and collectedConfused........and mind you, even the wife would feel extremely guilty...and I really dont think the man would become an abuser or a chauvinist if he slaps her while uncovering her infidelity

Originally posted by Buffie

.and one more thing, are you saying that its not right for a spouse to coerce but its allright for a parent to coerce/slap/beatQuestion..That's such a cockamamie beliefConfused

So isnt it the duty of the husband to teach the wife what is right and what is wrong incase she isnt able to differentiate between the two????Dont you think a husband must love his wife as much as she is loved by her father???and with love comes responsibility.....


Buffie i completely disagree with you that the husband can use force if the wife is wrong to subdue her and teach her whats right.

 I agree with Zara that a parent- child relationship is much different from a husband- wife relationship. Its a different aspect here :  Parents are the childs GUARDIAN. The child is too immature to handle responsibility and make adult decisions.

....Lol, I never said tht since a dad can slap his daughter, a husband can slap his wife...I think I was misconstrued there, and rightly so perhaps as My sentence was framed really vaguelyConfused.....I never meant that since a father can slap and correct, a husband can also exercise that "prerorgative".......NO one can abuse/brutally beat anyone(be it a daughter, wife, servant, cow, dog ,pig etc etc)

  We arent talking about small toddlers or kids here....Maturity is a subjective issue...There are kids who has a wise head on young shoulders...and there are some who never ever seem to grow up and behave as adults........there are girls who get married at 18...and at 18, many are still very very immature, very naive, and get tricked really easily(i can speak for myselfLOL).....suppose the couple move to a foreign country where only the husband and the wife are residing.....the wife is YET too toooooooo green....isnt it the responsibility of the husband to guard her against all evils????isnt it his responsibility to protect her.......If a woman kills the ruffian, in order to save her chastity, she is exonerated of her sin....Analogously, if a man slaps(just a slap and NOT a brutal onslaught) a woman, inorder to protect her from the impending evil, I wouldnt call that "abuse"

As for a husband , he is NEVER NEVER NEVER your guardian. Please get this right. No matter in any circumstance he is NEVER your guardian.

ReallyQuestionSo what about the husband who has moved into a foreign country with his wife(who does NOT know the language, or isnt smart enough to differentiate between right and wrong)...Isnt he her guardian...Now tomorrow, if she's kidnapped, would it be acceptable if the man says "Hey look, I'm NOT her guardian....her DAD is her guardian..so let him fly down here and save her...".....Isnt she his responsibility?......If yes, then he can correct her Smile

 Even if the spouse is not working and is dependant on her man financialy or emotionally. By calling her husband the guardian you are already reducing her status to the one she had when she was a child and needed direction from her parents.

NO matter how educated a woman is, its not going to warrant that her maturity level is really highSmile....I have passed my 12th grade, I can call myself educated, but education didnt instill maturity into me.....whatever meagre maturity I possess is what I have imbibed from real life experiences....practical life experience matters more than education.....an ultra geek can be the most immature caricature....and in such cases, it becomes the responsibility of the spouse to guard, correct and guide the person....and by calling a husband a wife's guardian(or vice versa), I am in no way belittling her capabilities or trivializing her achievements SmileSmile


As a wife she may be wayward and needs direction, but then as a friend and her equal a husband should guide her . NOT AS HER GUARDIAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You've got to talk it out as an equal. How will use of violence ever put sense in some wayward adults head?????????????

BRUTAL VIOLENCE IS not the same as "one" slap....a wife getting beaten  black and blue, IS NOT the same as a single slap........If a wife does something so unbelieveably wrong, then I wouldnt call the husband an abuser or someone who used "violence"

 Don't forget the woman, the wife is an adult not a child.

BUT her maturity level can be the same as a child or even lowerWink

 Neither will a woman ever be able to put sense in her husband by physically abusing him nor will the husband. If words and counselling do not help. Then nothing will. Certainly not violence.

I agree here....but reiterating, if the husband witnesses something that's so execrable, something so nefarious,then would it be an abuse if he impetuously slaps her????..and isnt the woman too an abuser....hasnt she abused the trust??......

 

Bottomline:Everything depends on the CONTEXTBig smile

 



Edited by Buffie - 19 June 2006 at 1:19am

baby-*bunny

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baby-*bunny

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Posted: 19 June 2006 at 5:04am | IP Logged
BD all i can say is that when i said a women pushing her luck i meant those who don't give a toss about their partner humilating them in public trying to cut her husbands family off etc those women need a reality check by giving them a good earful and maybe a slap or two...........

you took the subject else where a women wanting to spend time with her husband etc no one is going to say that such a women will need a beating please think of what i meant it was quite obvious any way no offence i am just making a point ..........


also some women need to know the limits i.e. how far to take something like not tottaly cutting off the husbands family which does happen in places sometimes.......

sowmyaa

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Posted: 19 June 2006 at 6:56am | IP Logged
Buffie I disagree with you about parent/child abuse examples. In India we have diff norms if parent hit a child or a 16 year old girl for saying anything against elders it is not abuse but in US if you hit your child for any darn reason it is treated as abuse. I don't think any parent is allowed to hit thier child for any reason. Little spanking is different, but there are ways to talk out, but if parent hit a child it is simple abuse. Just 'coz that child cannot hit you back due to physically being weeker that does not give parent any right to hit their children. I would still call it abuse.

insouciance

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insouciance

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Posted: 19 June 2006 at 7:10am | IP Logged

Originally posted by sowmyaa

Little spanking is different.

YES!!and I'm talking about the same little spankSmile......Not brutal assault

Originally posted by sowmyaa

but if parent hit a child it is simple abuse

I have been spanked when I was a kid as I was tooooo very mischievous, and I dont consider that as an abuse.....Once, I had spilt utensils of curd on ALL the beds in my home, and I was spanked  because for like the next two days, everyone(even my old dada) had to sleep  on sofas/easy chairs/rocking chairs/floor.....LOLNow I dont think I was ABUSED by my mom who spanked me on my backBig smile

Yashodha used to spank Lord Krishna..We dont call that abuseTongue..I was was spanked when i drank a whole bottle of cough syrup only because it tasted goodTongue...Now I wouldnt call those spanks "abuse"



Edited by Buffie - 19 June 2006 at 7:16am

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