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The 9th avatar of Lord Vishnu??? (Page 8)

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varaali

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varaali

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Posted: 25 July 2012 at 11:58pm | IP Logged
The curious case of King Rishabhadeva


In the case of King Rishabhadeva, it is the exact opposite of Buddha- a legitimate avatar of Vishnu being pitchforked as the founder of Jainism. In fact King Rishabhadeva did not create any new religion. It was done so by his so -called 'disciple' Arhat

King Rishabhadeva's story appears in four adhayas of the fifth skanda of Srimad Bhagavtham. 

King Rishabhadeva was a devout king, in fact the very embodiment of Vedic Knowledge. When his sons were grown up, he entrusted the kingdom to the eldest one, Bharata and after instructing them on the highest knowledge (this is described in the fourth adhyaya) he begins to practice what is known as Jada Yoga- which means a kind of yoga wherin a person totally neglects his body and tries to forget that he has a body. This kind of yoga is very difficult to perform, but Lord Vishnu took this avatar to show that it is possible. 

Lord Rishabhadeva became an avadoota and wandered here and there, with no clothes on his body and the hair on his face and head, all long and unkempt. People - even his own subjects-began to think him as a madman. thus wandering Rishabhadeva reached the southern state of Karnataka (the region of Konkana, Gokarna and Venka) . By this time, long creepers had entwined his hands and legs but he did not care. He stayed for sometime in the forest near a place called Kutaka and later when a fire engulfed the forest, he gave up his life.

The news of a saint / madman living in the forests reached the ears of the local king called Arhant. He began to imitate Rishabhadeva's lifestyle and taking advantage of Rishabhadeva's name began to create a new religion which rejected the authority of Vedas and believed only in self mortification of the body. This was the beginning of the Jain religion. 

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Posted: 26 July 2012 at 12:03am | IP Logged
^^^^ So the above account rejects the idea of Mahavira as the founder of Jainism?  Or was the religion that they mention actually one different from Jainism?

varaali

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varaali

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Posted: 26 July 2012 at 12:04am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

But harking back to my question @ the start of the thread, why not count Mohini as the 3rd avatar, after Kurma?  After the ocean was churned, Garuda was instructed to take the mountain back to where he brought it from.  Kurma's avatar was over, and Vishnu, seeing the devas and asuras fight over the amrit, and the asuras having taken possession of it, decided to trick them out of it.  So he took on Mohini's form, seduced the asuras into making her the distributor, gave it all to the devas (except for Rahu-Ketu) and then took back his form again.  That would seem to make Mohini the third avatar, and shift everyone else down by 1 - Varaha being the 4th, Vamana the 5th,... Rama the 8th and Krishna the 9th.  Only problem for scriptural numerologists - it disrupts a major significance of the #8 and Krishna if he's no longer the 8th avatar of Vishnu.

It's true that Mohini re-surfaced on other occasions to help Mahadev against Bhashmasura, and again to help create a son Ayappa to slay Mahishi.  But would that disqualify her from the list?

In that case, logically Dhanvantri should precede Mohini. So it should be Kurma- Dhanvantri- Mohini then every one else. That would mean Krishna occupying the No 10 slot.  No Kalki , no Buddha. Incidentally in the list of 22, Varha is at the No 1.


Edited by varaali - 26 July 2012 at 12:02am

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varaali

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varaali

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Posted: 26 July 2012 at 12:06am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

^^^^ So the above account rejects the idea of Mahavira as the founder of Jainism?  Or was the religion that they mention actually one different from Jainism?

It is the same Jainism.  But this account raises a question over the Jains' claim of Rishabhadeva being the first Tithankara. AFAIK, Rishabhadeva had nothing to do with Jainism.

bhas1066

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Posted: 26 July 2012 at 12:27am | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

We seem to be going around in circles.Presently the question in circulation seems to be twofold :

  • Whether Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu or not
  • If so, does he figure in the top 10, or in the larger group of 22?


As I said earlier, SB mentions 22 avatars of Vishnu. Let us forget the subsect of Dasha Avatars for a minute and concentrate on the bigger list of 22. In that list, there are avatars as diverse as Kurma (who did nothing put to support the mountain) , King Prithu, Sage Kapila , Mohini and the four Sanat Kumaras.


Srimad Bhagavtham, Veda Vyasa and Suta Goswami had no problems with accepting the fact that in His next incarnation as Buddha, Vishnu is not going to talk about the Vedas, yagnas, rituals,  etc but will preach on more basic, fundamental  social ethics. 

It is also said in SB itself that such an unique / different avatar will be required because  of the turbulent times the world will be passing through. Scientific knowledge would have advanced so much that men would be shooting invisible rockets / missiles into outer space which will hold a threat of not only destroying life on Earth, but lives(if at all)  on other spheres as well. 





For anybody who is quoting srimad bhagvatam / bhagwat puran , goswami and vyas , please know that the 22 avatars  it states is including Balarama and states Krishna as the source of them not Vishnu.

i have pasted that portion from SB here and also providing the link. please check it out.

Chapter 3: Krishna is the Source of All Incarnations (not agreeable to me. Krishna is only an avatar not the source!!!)

(6) "The sons of Brahm [the Kumras] were first disciplined in austerity for the sake of realizing continuity. (7) He next incarnated for the sake of the welfare of the earth like a boar lifting her up from the lower regions. (8) Thirdly He accepted [in the form of Nrada Muni] His presence among the learned for the sake of evolving Vedic knowledge concerning the service in devotion without further material motives. (9) Fourth born as the twin sons of king Dharma in the form of Nara-Nryana He underwent severe penances to attain control over the senses. (10) Fifth with the name of Kapila He gave an exposition to the brahmin suri on the nature of metaphysics and the elements of creation because in the course of time the knowledge was lost. (11) Sixth, born as the son of Atri from Anasy who prayed for Him, He lectured to Alarka, Prahlda and others about transcendence. (12) Seventh born from kti as Yaja, the son of Prajpati Ruci He, assisted the godly, with His son Yamaruled during the period of Svyambhuva Manu. (13) Eighth, from the wife of King Nbhi, Merudev, He took birth as King Rishabha and showed the path of perfection respected by people of all stages of life. (14) Accepting His ninth incarnation in response to the prayers of the sages, He ruled [as Prithu] the earth for the sake of its cultivation and produces, which made her beautifully attractive. (15) Like a fish [Mtsya] in the water He kept Vaivasvata Manu after the period of Ckshusha Manu protected in a boat afloat the waters when the world was deeply inundated. (16) Eleventh as a tortoise [Kurma] He sustained the Mandarcala Hill of the theists and atheists that served as a pivot in the ocean. (17) Twelfth there was Dhanvantari [Lord of medicine] and thirteenth He appeared as an alluring beautiful woman to the atheists when He gave nectar to the godly. (18) In His fourteenth incarnation He appeared as Nrisimha, who with His nails half as a Lion on His lap tore apart the king of the atheists like a carpenter splitting cane. (19) Fifteenth He assumed the form of Vmana [the dwarf-brhmana] who went to the arena of sacrifice of Mahrja Bali and begged for three steps of land only, while He in fact wanted to seize the three worlds. (20) In His sixteenth incarnation [as Bhrigupati or Paras'urma] He acted twenty-one times against the ruling class that negated the intelligentsia. (21) Seeing the common people as being less intelligent He seventeenth incarnated as Vysadeva taking birth from Satyavat with Pars'ara Muni as His father, in order to divide the desire tree of the Veda into several branches. (22) Next He performed in a superhuman way in controlling the Indian Ocean having assumed the form of a divine human being [Rma] in order to act for the sake of the godly. (23) Nineteenth as well as twentieth He appeared as Balarama and Krishna from the Vrishni family and thus Bhagavn removed the burden from the world. (24) Thereafter in the Age of Kali His birth as Lord Buddha from Ajan in Gay will take place in order to delude the ones envious of the theists. (25) Next, at the conjunction of two yugas when there is hardly a ruler to be found who is not a plunderer, the Lord carrying the name of Kalki will take birth as the son of Vishnu Yas'." 


here is the link:
http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/downloads/bhagavatam-canto1.html#3

The question here is of the Top Ten which has only one slot for Kali Yuga avatar . which would it be--- Buddha or Kalki??

How come Varaha comes before Matsya and Kurma avatars? The timeline doesnt fit.

In this list why isnt Dattatreya included. He is accepted as an avatar of Vishnu right?




Edited by bhas1066 - 26 July 2012 at 1:06am

varaali

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varaali

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Posted: 26 July 2012 at 12:32am | IP Logged
^^^^^ 19th- Balarama
          20th Krishna
          21st Buddha
           22nd Kalki

That's what I have been saying. Refer to my earlier post here

And in the link quoted by you above, where does it say that Krishna and not Vishnu is the source of all creation? 


Edited by varaali - 26 July 2012 at 12:42am

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Posted: 26 July 2012 at 12:53am | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

Originally posted by .Vrish.

But harking back to my question @ the start of the thread, why not count Mohini as the 3rd avatar, after Kurma?  After the ocean was churned, Garuda was instructed to take the mountain back to where he brought it from.  Kurma's avatar was over, and Vishnu, seeing the devas and asuras fight over the amrit, and the asuras having taken possession of it, decided to trick them out of it.  So he took on Mohini's form, seduced the asuras into making her the distributor, gave it all to the devas (except for Rahu-Ketu) and then took back his form again.  That would seem to make Mohini the third avatar, and shift everyone else down by 1 - Varaha being the 4th, Vamana the 5th,... Rama the 8th and Krishna the 9th.  Only problem for scriptural numerologists - it disrupts a major significance of the #8 and Krishna if he's no longer the 8th avatar of Vishnu.

It's true that Mohini re-surfaced on other occasions to help Mahadev against Bhashmasura, and again to help create a son Ayappa to slay Mahishi.  But would that disqualify her from the list?

In that case, logically Dhanvantri should precede Mohini. So it should be Kurma- Dhanvantri- Mohini then every one else. That would mean Krishna occupying the No 10 slot.  No Kalki , no Buddha. Incidentally in the list of 22, Varha is at the No 1.

In the 10 avatars, Dhanvantri wouldn't be in the list.  I brought up Mohini b'cos after Kurma's job was done, hers began.  The other 12 on the list I wasn't considering in this analysis.

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varaali

varaali

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varaali

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Posted: 26 July 2012 at 1:05am | IP Logged
Bhaas1006,

Are you referring to the heading of the chapter (3rd Adhaya of Skanda 1) which says Krishna is the source of all incarnations? 

 The heading, I would like to say, has been added  by Prabhupada ji. (whose version is in the link quoted by you) There is no such heading in the original. And if you look at the verses carefully (in Sanskrit) no where is the word Krishna used, (except to indicate his descent on Earth.)  It is only Bhagavan, or its synonyms. 

Both the online versions www.srimadbhagavtham.com and www.srimadbhagavtham.org are Prabhupada's explanations. Whilst they are useful for quoting online or for a quick search, I personally prefer Gita Press' version (for translations). 

BTW, yuo have edited your post multiple times. First you had mentioned that according to SB there were 25 avatars. You had me momentarily stumped, Confused until you corrected it to 22. 


Edited by varaali - 26 July 2012 at 1:06am

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