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The 9th avatar of Lord Vishnu??? (Page 3)

ShivangBuch Goldie
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Posted: 20 July 2012 at 2:19pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

 
Matysa avatar was meant to destroy the demon Hayagriva (recall that there is yet another incarnation of Vishnu named Hayagriva, but he is not a part of the dashavatara) and recreate the world by protecting a male and female of every species. 
I am confused by this actually about Haygreev and Matsya avatars. What you and the link mention is Haygreev who was killed by Matsya. Serial SK has only shown Matsya to have incarnated to save Vedas and Saptarshis from JAL PRALAY. And the song of the film Haridarshan says something different. It has a line which says Matsya killed Shankhasur who had stolen Vedas and was hidden in water. SHANKHASUR naam ka tha daanav...Vedon ko chura ke ghusa jal me... Also further in that song, a line comes which says: Haygreev tapasya karta tha...Keval Haygreev mujhe maare...Hayshish roop Hari ne dhara...Translation is that Haygreev asked for the boon that only another Horseheaded could kill him so Vishnu also was born as Haygreev (so avatar of same name killed devil of same name). Haygreev avatar along with the first Aadi Purush are the two who are there in the list of 24 (2nd link) but not in the list of 22 (1st). Also I am always puzzled why Lakshman, Bharat and Shatrughna are not included in them when both VR and RCM (In just 1 Choupai) mention that.

Here is that song link (0:55 and 4:45 in that link)

Kurma avatara was meant to help the churning of the ocean so that the devtas could get the amrit and always have superiority over the demons. Varaha was meant to destroy Hiranyaksha and protect the Earth from being drowned. Narasimha was meant to kill Hiranyakashipu and protect the people from his tyranny. Vamana was meant to destroy the arrogance of Bali Chakravarthy and push him down to the patal lok since he was assisting the demons in having superiority over the devtas. Parashuram was meant to kill all the arrogant kshatriyas of Earth who had been stopping the sages from doing yagnas. Rama was meant to kill Ravan and protect the people from his tyranny. Like Rama, Krishna too was meant to kill several demons and protect the people, and Kalki is meant to destroy the world which will one day become so steeped in evil that people will forget right from wrong.
 
As you have noticed, all 9 of these avatars of Lord Vishnu somehow are action-related, and they include protecting people from evil. Though Vishnu had up to 22-24 avatars, not all of them were meant to destroy evil as some of them were sages who spread God's word to people. If Buddha was indeed an avatar of Vishnu, then I would include him among the 24 but not the dashavatara, as he never did anything to destroy evil and protect the people. He is comparable to Vyasa, who himself never fought but spread God's word. Though Vyasa is an amsa of Vishnu, that's why he's not among the dashavatara.
That is what is precisely mentioned in that source that Buddha did preach against yagyas to protect devatas against evil starting to perform yagyas on earth (Now how far reliable is this and possibly added later on in SB is questionable and debatable as mentioned in that note below - strange also because Yagyas always feed Devtas and good for them but also it is true that they need to give in return to the performer what he wants). If you go with that story, if Kurma & Vaaman can be counted to be active to punish the evil in some sense, this can also be counted to be acting to punish evil in some sense. And I don't think Kurma can be said to be the incarnation taken to help Devtas to get the amrit because that incarnation was helping neutrally. If we follow that logic then it should be Mohini not Kurma who helped Gods against Demons.

Here is that story again with bold sentence:

2nd link part 
23) BUDDHA AVATAR (Incarnation as Buddha) : The twenty-third incarnation of Lord Vishnu was as Lord Buddha. In the Kaliyuga the demons were completely subjugated by the deities. Shukracharya the teacher of the demons instigated the demons to perform Yagya so that they could regain power and authority. Fearing this the deities prayed to Lord Vishnu for help. Lord Vishnu took incarnation as Buddha and dissuaded the demons from performing Yagya as it involves violence the demons stopped 

 
It's also easier for me to believe Venkateshwara as the 9th avatar of Vishnu in comparison to Buddha, because the story of Buddha isn't explained clearly in any scripture as per my understanding, and characters like Vishnu, Lakshmi, and the other devtas do not appear in the story like they do with every other of Vishnu's avatars. Sometime, it doesn't even seem to be a part of Hinduism though Buddha was born a Hindu.
Matsya, Kurma, Varah, Narsinha, Vaaman, Parshuram...None of them had Lakshmi avatar with them. Neither were they so long (first 4) to be able to give credit to incarnations of devatas of assisting them.


Edited by ShivangBuch - 20 July 2012 at 2:32pm

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Debipriya.Vrish.

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Posted: 20 July 2012 at 2:28pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

Vishnu avatars were always willing for peace (and not war) with greatest possible efforts of explaining the sinners and forgiving them if they surrender/realize fault/correct the sin but had the ultimate aim of protecting good. That's right. I have nothing to say against this.

That was only true about Rama & Krishna, AFAIK.  Matsya, Varaha and Narasimha did no such thing w/ Hayagriva, Hiranyaksha or Hiranyakashipu, and even if we left the animal avatars aside and focused on the humans, Parashurama never negotiated w/ any kshatriyas - he just went on a genocidal campaign to wipe out 21 generations of them.  One could argue that the emphasis away from war was a valid one, except that Parashuram pops even that one.
Yes. My mistake. Only this time I used ALL for only Ram & Krishna and generalized it for all Vishnu avatars. But I think it was also because of the fact that in case of Shankhasur, Haygreev, Hiranyaksha, Hiranyakashyapu; there was no danger of harm to large population or public like in case of Lanka or Hastinapur and those demons didn't surrender when they were being beaten. They were not wars but duels only. Parshuram's case is strange though (even though they also were all duels and he fought against all single handedly who came against him). Again same sentence. We require to dig deep into his actions minutely and subtly. The events of his wars with Kshatriyas should then be very detailed and elaborated in front of us like Kurukshetra war's every single arrow shot. Few of the things like he sparing Janak and Dasrath, he even destroying the fetus in the womb, Kshatriya dynasties once again starting/resuming each time after being completely destroyed from the earth 21 times (possibly with the help of Brahmins like what Vyas did). These are the points worth to be discussed separately.

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Posted: 20 July 2012 at 2:41pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by ShivangBuch

I am confused by this actually about Haygreev and Matsya avatars. What you and the link mention is Haygreev who was killed by Matsya. Serial SK has only shown Matsya to have incarnated to save Vedas and Saptarshis from JAL PRALAY. If you have ever seen BRC's Vishnu Puraan, they show Matsya first killing Hayagriva and only then saving the saptarishis. I have also learnt the other story from my parents, about how Lord Vishnu took the form of Hayagriva to kill a demon by the same name. BRC's Vishnu Puraan says their main source is Vyasa's Vishnu Purana, so I think the story of Matsya killing Hayagriva is from there, though I cannot confirm it since I don't know for sure. And the song of the film Haridarshan says something different. It has a line which says Matsya killed Shankhasur who had stolen Vedas and was hidden in water. SHANKHASUR naam ka tha daanav...Vedon ko chura ke ghusa jal me... Also further in that song, a line comes which says: Haygreev tapasya karta tha...Keval Haygreev mujhe maare...Hayshish roop Hari ne dhara...Translation is that Haygreev asked for the boon that only another Horseheaded could kill him so Vishnu also was born as Haygreev (so avatar of same name killed devil of same name). Haygreev avatar along with the first Aadi Purush are the two who are there in the list of 24 (2nd link) but not in the list of 22 (1st). Also I am always puzzled why Lakshman, Bharat and Shatrughna are not included in them when both VR and RCM (In just 1 Choupai) mention that. I think Lakshman, Bharat, and Shatrughan are not included because they are not believed to be direct amsas of Vishnu. Though VR says they were all portions of Vishnu, other puranas say that Lakshman, like Balram, is am ansa of Seshnaag and Bharat and Shatrughan were Vishnu's Sudarshan Chakra and Panchajanya reborn. So yes, ultimately they are forms of Vishnu but not direct incarnations if that makes sense.
 
That is what is precisely mentioned in that source that Buddha did preach against yagyas to protect devatas against evil starting to perform yagyas on earth (Now how far reliable is this and possibly added later on in SB is questionable and debatable as mentioned in that note below - strange also because Yagyas always feed Devtas and good for them but also it is true that they need to give in return to the performer what he wants). This is exactly why I find it questionable. I find it hard to believe anything which two avatars of Vishnu contradict each other. Both Rama and Krishna performed yagnas and endorsed them for the welfare of mankind, because it is the yagnas that cause rains to come and the crops to flourish. And also, by pleasing the devtas through yagnas people will always be shown their protection and mercy. If devtas were really being threatened by yagnas in Kali yug, then it would be more believable for me if Buddha had killed those sinners instead of preaching against yagnas altogether. That logic doesn't hold with me because all of Vishnu's avatars tried to teach people to reform peacefully first, and used violence only when the sinners would not listen. Had Buddha preached peace to everyone and killed the sinners who went against him, then I'd be able to consider him as Vishnu's avatar, but his teachings do not seem like the teachings of Vishnu so I find it questionable.
 
Also, take for example Ravan, who performed yagnas to benefit himself and then used the powers he was granted to torment the devtas. This is the exact situation Buddha was preaching against, right? However, Rama did not tell everyone to quit doing yagnas since people like Ravan were getting boons. He killed Ravan and taught everyone what happens when they misuse their powers. This is the ultimate truth of Vishnu's teachings, whether it comes in the form of Ramayan or Bhagawad Gita. He is always merciful and kind to everyone, because they are his children. However, when they misbehave and walk on the wrong path, he will give them not one, but several warnings to improve their conduct and get rid of their sins, but if the sinners still do not listen, he will punish them.
 
If Buddha was Vishnu's avatar, this is what I would expect him to do to the sinners who were misusing yagnas. Moreover, Kali Yug is the era of most sin. If you noticed, every one of Vishnu's avatars got more aggressive and more powerful as the yugas neared Kali Yug. Krishna taught people that one must fight for dharma, and he annihilated every sinner that walked the Earth in his time. So why would he come back to Earth in Kali Yuga as Buddha, and preach total peace when even more sin was rampant? I would expect someone like Kalki to come in Buddha's place.
 
If you go with that story, if Kurma & Vaaman can be counted to be active to punish the evil in some sense, this can also be counted to be acting to punish evil in some sense. And I don't think Kurma can be said to be the incarnation taken to help Devtas to get the amrit because that incarnation was helping neutrally. If we follow that logic then it should be Mohini not Kurma who helped Gods against Demons. Vishnu puraan showed that Vishnu agreed to help the devtas in the form of Kurma, because it was pre-planned by them that Mohini would come and distribute the amrit. I kind of think of Mohini and Kurma as the same since they came in close proximity.

Here is that story again with bold sentence:
 
Matsya, Kurma, Varah, Narsinha, Vaaman, Parshuram...None of them had Lakshmi avatar with them. Neither were they so long (first 4) to be able to give credit to incarnations of devatas of assisting them. Only Krishna and Rama's avatars were the longest, otherwise all other avatars were short. I did not mean that Lakshmi had to be present in each one, but other Gods were always present in each one, weren't they? I don't know how to explain it, but every avatar of Vishnu shares a similarity in that some God or other (besides vishnu) is always present either being a catalyst or part of the audience, but in Buddha no one is mentioned. Most importantly, the avatars always start off with Vishnu proclaiming that he will come to Earth as so and so, to help so and so. But in buddha's avatar, even vishnu is not mentioned. His birth, childhood, adulthood, nowhere are any characters familiar to Hindu puranas ever make an appearance, so it makes doubt that he is vishnu's avatar.
 
Btw, which source did you say had Vishnu coming down as Buddha? Is it from an actual Hindu scripture?
 
[/QUOTE]

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Posted: 20 July 2012 at 2:44pm | IP Logged
Btw, I don't know how true this is, but in BRC's Vishnu Puraan, they give a valid reasoning behind Parashuram killing so many kshatriyas.
 
They show that Sahasrarjun had become so powerful, arrogant, and bloodthirsty that he won over so many Kings in battle, fairly or unfairly, and had several hundreds of Kings as his vassals. Those Kings too were arrogant, and in the end battle when Parashuram went to kill Sahasrarjun, all those Kings supported him so Parashuram killed every single one, since those Kings were supporting Adharma. This kind of reminds me of the Kurukshetra war, since all of the Kings who supported the Kauravas died also.
 
This also explains why by Rama's time, a good number of Kings were still alive. Those must be the descendants of Kings who did not support Sahasrarjun and get killed in that battle.
 
Has anyone read Vyasas' Vishnu Purana to confirm this?

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Posted: 20 July 2012 at 10:13pm | IP Logged
In the ACK Parashuram, they mentioned that unfortunately, he started killing not only evil kshatriyas, but good ones as well.  It showed one scene of a king bowing to him and telling him that he was innocent and only interested in the good of his subjects, so why punish him.  Parashurama used his guilt by association reasoning to tell him that one of his caste had slaughtered his father, and then proceeded to decapitate him.  Panic ensued in that kingdom, and others where Parashurama repeated that process, and Bhumi Devi approached Kashyap appealing to him to stop the massacre.

That was the origin of the ban on Parashurama to rest anywhere on Bhulok.

I know that ACKs are by no means the last word.  But most ACKs embellished the good deeds of their heros and masked their bad ones.  But in this case, they showed Parashurama overdoing it, and hence the intervention from Kashyap.  Parashurama followed that by giving away all his wealth and everything, and when Drona approached him, all he had was his weapons, which he then gave/taught Drona (which begs the question - how did he have anything left for Karna?)

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Posted: 21 July 2012 at 5:09am | IP Logged
Incidentally, Buddha being missed in DkDM as one of Vishnu's avatars when Shiva was doing his Nata dance was briefly touched on here


One poster made a pretty good point that what Sidhartha did - abandoning his family in pursuit of moksha - was against Karmaic laws, which is incidentally what Krishna advised Arjun against doing in the Gita.

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Posted: 21 July 2012 at 10:25am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

Incidentally, Buddha being missed in DkDM as one of Vishnu's avatars when Shiva was doing his Nata dance was briefly touched on here


One poster made a pretty good point that what Sidhartha did - abandoning his family in pursuit of moksha - was against Karmaic laws, which is incidentally what Krishna advised Arjun against doing in the Gita.
Baalak dhruv became tapasvi at child age. Shankara left his family at child age. Vivekanand also left his family at young age. Can you quote the exact verse of Geeta where Krishna specifically tells Arjun not to become Sanyasi even if one is a true sanyasi by mind?

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Posted: 21 July 2012 at 10:28am | IP Logged
Buddha is indeed mentioned as an avatar of Vishnu in Srimad Bhagavatham. And the Rishabhadeva mentioned in SB was not the  one who founded Jainism. I will discuss this later.

But let me come to another point first. Srimad Bhagavatham considers Vishnu as having taken avatar 22 times. The concept of ten avatars has now been  deeply entrenched  - but I am not sure how those ten were picked out of the list of twenty two. What does the Vishu Puran have to say on this?

The 22 avatars as listed by Srimad Bhagavtham is as follows (Slokas 6 to 25, Adhaya 3, Skanda 1):

  1. The four Sanat Kumaras
  2. Varaha
  3. Devarishi Narada
  4. The twin Sages- Nara & Narayana
  5. Lord Kapila
  6. Lord Dattatreya
  7. Yagna- son of Ruchi and Aakuti
  8. Rishabhadeva- Son of Nabhi and Merudevi
  9. King Prithu
  10. Matsya
  11. Kurma
  12. Dhanvantri
  13. Mohini
  14. Narasimha
  15. Vamana
  16. Parashurama
  17. Sage Ved Vyasa
  18. Lord Rama
  19. Lord Balarama
  20. Lord Krishna
  21. Buddha
  22. Kalki.
Now, the Buddha mentioned here is supposed to incarnate in the begining of Kali Yuga as the son of Anjana Devi in the province of Gaya. Does this information tally with that of Gautama Buddha? 

A few more details about this 'Buddha' emerge in  2.7.37 (Second Skanda, 7 adhyaya, 37 sloka)

It says that  when the scientific knowledge in the Vedas begins to be exploited by atheists who then shoot invisible rockets into the sky and try blast planets, etc in outer space, the Lord will divert their minds by dressing himself attractively as Buddha and preach a lot on social principles, code of conduct etc. 

There was some discussion above on how Gautama Buddha was against yagnas, idol worship etc, and hence cannot be considered as an avatar of Vishnu. But this point is answered by SB itself. SB specificaaly states the Buddha in question will preach extensively on social and moral ethics- not religon. (Upadharmayam- is the word used ; Meaning- Principles which do not strictly fall in the ambit of religion
 
Now, my feeling is that the incorporation of Gautama Buddha into the Dasha- Avatar set must have been a latter day phenomenon, probably to stem a mass exodus of Hindus into Buddhism. The incorporation would not have been too difficult, given that SB itself mentions Buddha as one of the avatars.





Edited by varaali - 21 July 2012 at 10:45am

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