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What happened to Luv and Kush after ram and sita?

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kimono007

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kimono007

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Posted: 13 July 2012 at 6:06am | IP Logged
This is in reply to some post about " what happened to luv and kush after ram and sita depart" where i found very incorrect details. This is posted to tell the true story. Hope everyone appreciates.
Luv and Kush grew to be just rulers like their father. Luv was coronated and ruled from Kushavati ( now kushinagar) and Luv ruled his part of the kingdom from Shravasti. Laxman, Bharat and Shatrugan's sons got their share of kingdom as well. Ayodhya was abandoned after Lord Rama. One may recollect that many people from Ayodhya went with Ram into the Sarayu river. When King Vikramaditya found Ayodhya, it was nothing but a combination of forest and ruins of ancient temples and buildings. It took great research to locate sites in Ayodhya connected with Ram's life. Although after Ram, Ayodhya must have been visited frequently by Ram's sons for pilgrimage. Kush on such a visit to Ayodhya might have married a Naga princess and constructed a Shiva temple for her. The Nageshwarnath temple which Kush is said to have built- with whose help King Vikramaditya is said to have located present day Ayodhya bears testimony to this story.  Also, tulsi ramcharitmanas does not mention Luv and Kush fighting with their uncles. In fact, Tulsidas finished the story with Ram's coronation. He mentioned that he did not want to write about sita's exile. Valmiki has written about Luv and Kush and Ram-Sita's departure. Valmiki has written nothing nothing but the truth as was his nature.
There is no written story where Kush is killed by a demon. How can this be possible? One who held fort against Laxman, Bharath and Shatrugan cannot fall to a mere demon.  Hanuman maintained ties with Luv and Kush after Lord Rama went to Vaikunth. He protected them from some demons who wanted to take advantage of the situation that Ram was not around. Those demons were all killed by Hanuman.
As regards Kush fighting a demon, there is a story I have heard but have not come across in writing. Luv and Kush are attacked by a demon who blessed by Lord Shiva with his trident attacks them. It is a battle fought with armies. The rakshasa throws his trident at Luv injuring him severely. Hanuman rushes to bring Sanjivani. The secon time he throws Shiva's trident at Luv and Kush, Hanuman intervenes by catching the trident. In the end , the demon surrenders by accepting Luv and Kush's supremacy as they are symbols of dharma. This story was shown in the programme - Jai veer Hanuman which was telecast in 1995-96 ( I think -  i was very small then ). One can buy the DVD copies of Jai veer hanuman if they want to see that story.
 
I hope this article above helps.
 
 

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Posted: 13 July 2012 at 6:34am | IP Logged

Thanks for the information.

It's true that neither Valmiki Ramayan nor Ramcharitmanas have the story of Luv Kush fighting their uncles and father, but it's from another one of the 14 Ramayan sources which are revered by people. I think this story may be from Adhyatma Ramayana or Ananda Ramayana, I am not sure. I remember we had this discussion before in the Ramayan forum but now those members aren't active so I cannot verify.
 
As for the story about Kush being killed by a demon, even I find it hard to believe because he is the son of Ram/Vishnu. I believe that Luv and Kush both left the world like Ram did, after having ruled for many years. Like you said, even Lord Hanuman protected them so how could kush have been killed by a mere demon? He is the son of Lord Vishnu!
 
This story is however from Raghuvamsa, so I do not know whether it's true or not. In fact, we won't know whether many stories from the Ramayan are true or not, or even if the Valmiki Ramayana we have today is 100% the exact one he wrote, since it's been passed through many hands and could have been changed over the years. What we choose to believe and not believe is our own choice in the end of the day.

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Posted: 13 July 2012 at 11:48am | IP Logged
There is no account of any story of Luv after Rama's passing.  I have a theory that he became the ruler of S Kosala (today's Chattisgarh), which was Kaushalya's maayka kingdom that had no independent rulers after Bhanuman.  That's one of the few explanations why there are accounts about Kush's kingdom, but not Luv's.  Shravasti as his capital is not in Valmiki, neither is Kushavati for Kush.  I think Kush inherited the entire kingdom of Ayodhya, and his capital remained that only.

Also, in Valmiki, there is nothing about Kush or Luv fighting their uncles.  In fact, Lakshman was the one who accompanied the horse, and that passed of w/o incident.  Kush & Luv, as Valmiki's disciples, were among the invitees.  The only thing they did there was sing @ the yagna the Ramayan.

Given that, it's perfectly possible that Kush could have been killed by a demon, since the original account of his fight w/ his uncles didn't actually happen.  Or, if not a demon, maybe he died in a normal battle.  His dynasty, however continued and his descendant, Brihadbala, found himself conquered first by Bhima and later by Karna, before fighting the war on the Kaurava side and getting killed by Abhimanyu.

Of the other cousins, their dynasties didn't last long.  The dynasties of Bharat's sons were ousted by the Druhyus - a lunar dynasty, and that of Shartughan's sons also were replaced by that of Krishna's ancestors.  Little is known about the Himalayan kingdoms that Lakshman's sons were given by Rama & Lakshman, and whether those dynasties survived or not.  Neither was anything ever heard of Luv's kingdom.

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kimono007

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Posted: 14 July 2012 at 11:20am | IP Logged
Hi all. Thanks for the response. I would like to answer some issues ( even though no one has asked ), but I feel that I should share whatever I have read and come across like Ramcharitmanas and Valmiki Ramayan.

1) Kush being killed by a demon :
A.  This is not possible. It is true that Lord Hanuman protected Luv and Kush. He even killed some rakshasas who tried to attack them. One of them was a rakshasi who tried to kill Kush stealthily by dressed as a beautiful maiden. Hanuman is well known to protect good and righteous people. In the kali age, didn't he protect Saint Tulsidas from some jealous people who wanted to get rid of him. One one occasion, Ram and Laxman appeared to save him from some rogue sadhus and all of them had to run for fear. Only after this incident did they decide to test Ramcharitmanas' authenticity in the Kashi Vishwanath temple. Everyone knows what happened in this incident. Lord Shiva placed Ramcharitmanas above the texts written by the other sadhus. Ramcharitmanas of Tulsidas tells the story of Lord Ram till his return to Ayodhya and his coronation. Only Valmiki tells the story of Luv and Kush and finishes his ramayan at the point where Lord Ram leaves for Vaikunth. He does not give information about  Luv and Kush after Lord Ram leaves for Vaikunth.
Knowing that protection of Hanuman and blessings of Ram and Sita was with Luv and Kush, it is commonsense that nothing untoward happened to Luv and Kush. They grew to become valiant rulers like their father.

2) Capitals of Luv and Kush
     Kush ruled Dakshin Kosala with Kushavati ( now Kushinagar ) as his capital. He is also said to have found a city named Kasur, now in Pakistan. Luv ruled uttar kosala with Shravasti as his capital. He is also said to have founded Lahore city. Even today, a temple dedicated to Luv exists in Lahore fort built by Akbar. Sage Durvasa mentioned to King Dashrath when asked about the future of Ram and Ram's descendants that Ram's sons will be crowned outside Ayodhya. So this lends credence to the fact that Ayodhya was abondoned after Ram's time and became a pilgrimage center visited by ordinary people and Lord Ram's sons. ( I have mentioned about Ayodhya's status in my original post )

3) Descendants of Bharath, Laxman and Shatrugan 
     Not much is known about them. It is well known that Lord Ram was keen that his nephews should share his kingdom with Luv and Kush. One of the sons of Shatrugan got Mathura ( Known as Madhupur in Treta yug where Shatrughan killed Lavanasur ). It is also a well known fact that Mathura later passed on to the yadava dynasty. Hence, Shatrugan's dynasty in Mathura might have ended with time as an entire yuga passed between Ram's and Krishna's time. So the yadavas must have taken control of Mathura and surrounding regions with time.   
   

Hope this helps.
     

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Posted: 14 July 2012 at 1:01pm | IP Logged

http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1695704&TPN=2

Here I copy paste the Krittivas Ramayan Lav Kush info Semanti posted (and discussion between Semanti and Vrish in alternate colours) in her KR thread currently active once again. Just to recall or remind about the fight between Lav-Kush and their uncles in KR.


24)       Shatrughna alone heard Ramayan (story till then) sung by Luv Kush while he returned from Madhupuri after slaying Lavanasur. He spent that night in Valmiki's ashram. He became very emotional to hear Ramayan but could not see the singers. He asked Valmiki about the singers but Valmiki avoided carefully.

In Valmiki, Rama explicitly asks Lakshaman to leave Sita near Valmiki's ashram, and he asks Shatrughtan to visit Valmiki.  While there, on the night of KL's births, Shatrughan actually  meets Sita.

 

Does Krittivas' account match this?

 

In Krittivas too, Ram asks Lakshman to leave Sita near Valmiki's ashram. But here Ram didn't ask Shatrughan to visit Valmiki, Shatrughan went to visit Valmiki himself, while on the way to Mathura (Madhupuri). Yes, on the same day Sita gave birth to Luv Kush, but Valmiki ordered his disciples not to express this news to Shatrughan. Thus it was kept secret.

Btw- in Valmiki, Shatrughan heard about Luv-Kush's birth, & knew their parent's name too, but did not meet Sita (a famous scholar wrote that, he couldn't meet Sita as Ram didn't order him to do so).

 

25)       The war of Luv Kush with their uncles is interestingly & elaborately narrated here. This is not written by Valmiki, Krittivas adopted this incident from Jaimini Bharat. The whole war is similar with that shown by Ramanand Sagar, only with one difference. The boys not only made their uncles unconscious, they killed them, & also killed Vibhisan's & Sugriv's battle. Only Hanuman & Jamvuban were alive because they had boon of immortality. & they also fought against Ram, but neither Ram nor Luv Kush could win. The children made their father unconscious. Finally Valmiki came & made all of them alive.

Now, you've made me curious about Jaimini Bharat   Besides, Vibhisan too had the boon of immortality, so he too shouldn't have died.  I think the term 'killed' was loosely used by some poets. 

I'm also curious about Jaimini Bharat, but couldn't find it till now. Vibhison didn't die but he did nothing mentionable here, so I eliminated his name. 

Vibhishan was immortal as per Brahma's boon, unless Jaimini Bharat disagrees.

 

Yes I know that, & I haven't read Jaimini Bharat so can't confirm whether it disagrees or not.

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Posted: 14 July 2012 at 1:08pm | IP Logged
  1. Kush being killed by a demon Durjaya - it's something from Kalidasa, so have no comments about its authenticity.
  2. Shravasti and Kushavati - they have no mention in Valmiki.  Hence my theries above.  One story has it that Kush was approached in a dream by the Gramdevta asking him to move back to Ayodhya, and he returned there and handed over Kushavati to some rishis.  In the Mahabharata, Brihadbala is clearly described as the ruler of Ayodhya, so it was certainly not a tirthasthan
  3. Descendants of Shatrughan, Bharat & Lakshman - everything I mentioned above is from Valmiki, so when you say not much is known about them, are you talking about after their fathers passed on, or even before?  If you're talking about before, it's reasonably well documented (unless one questions the originality of the Valmiki translations we have today).  The history is clear - after the demise of Sita, Kaushalya, Sumitra and Kaikeyi, Budhajit, the ruler of Kekaya, asked Rama to conquer Gandhara.  Rama accordingly sent Bharata and his sons to conquer them.  He himself along w/ Lakshman, Angad and Chandraketu, invaded Karupadadesh and had 2 new city-kingdoms given to Lakshman's sons.  After the passing of Lakshman, when Bharat declined to succeed him as ruler of Ayodhya and instead suggested that Kush & Luv be crowned, he crowned them ruler of 2 Kosala kingdoms.  Shatrughan gave his older son Subahu his own kingdom Mathura, and he gave his younger son Shatrughatee the kingdom of Vidisha.
In the Mahabharata, it is described in Adi Parva how Bharat's descendants were overthrown, and the dynasty passed on to the Druhyus.  In Mathura, Shatrughan's dynasty too didn't last.  Only one that lasted was Kush's dynasty.  Nothing is known about Luv, Angad or Chandraketu's kingdoms.

P.S.  Shivang, in Valmiki's account, Shatrughan did meet and talk to Sita the night she gave birth.  On his return from Mathura to Ayodhya years later, he heard the kids singing.  It's all there, and he knew who they were.


Edited by .Vrish. - 14 July 2012 at 1:10pm

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Posted: 15 July 2012 at 10:35pm | IP Logged
Hi everyone. Thanks for sharing your knowledge about Luv and Kush. I hope it must have been an enriching experience for all of us.

Only thing I would like to add is that Sage Valmiki mentions that Luv ruled Uttar Kosala with Shravasti as his capital and Kush ruled Dakshin Kosala with Kushavati (Kushinagar) as his capital. Also the fact that Sage Durvasa foretold to King Dashrath that Rama's sons will be crowned outside Ayodhya and also the fact that Bharath's, Laxman's and Shatrugan's sons shared the other parts of Ram's Kingdom and Shatrugan's Mathura (Madhupur in those days) lends credence to the fact that Ayodhya was abondoned after Ram's departure to Vaikunth. If Ayodhya continued to be a center of politics during the rule of Ram's descendants, then why did King Vikramaditya find Ayodhya in a ruined and forested state. Taking the example of Mathura ( capital of yadavas in dwapar yug and also in kali yug where Krishna's great grandson Vajranabh and his descendants ruled after being crowned by Arjun in Indraprasth after destruction at Dwarka and also the capital of Shatrugan in Treta yug ) was never found in an abondoned state as it was an active center of ancient politics. There was considerable buddhist influence in Mathura as in ancient India, many affluent politicians in courts embraced buddhism and also many Kings including those who ruled Mathura during Buddha's time patronized buddhism. The original temple at Lord Krishna's birthplace was also built by Vajranabh and there was continuous rebuilding in and around at that site since eternity. This might not have been possible had Mathura remained in obscurity as Ayodhya was during Vikramaditya's time. King Vikramaditya is also credited with rebuilding and renovating Lord Krishna's birthplace as the one built by Vajranabh and his descendants had indeed become very old. I am not quoting Mughal invasions as they arrived very late. Anyways when they arrived, Mathura was a leading center of intellectuals and arts and was the center of politics. Ayodhya was not. Hence, the fact that Mathura was a well established center of arts, politics and religion lends credence to the fact that Mathura was never abondoned and continuously nurtured to becoming an influential region. Ayodhya was not like that. It was empty with ancient buildings, temples and forests when King Vikramaditya first found it and then began his great research.
Sage Valmiki only mentions the kingdoms that Luv and Kush inherited and also the kingdoms which Bharath's,Laxman's and Shatrugan's sons inherited. He does not give details about their style of rule and their descendants. It is mentioned in srimad bhagwatam.

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Posted: 19 July 2012 at 4:41pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by kimono007

Hi everyone. Thanks for sharing your knowledge about Luv and Kush. I hope it must have been an enriching experience for all of us.

Only thing I would like to add is that Sage Valmiki mentions that Luv ruled Uttar Kosala with Shravasti as his capital and Kush ruled Dakshin Kosala with Kushavati (Kushinagar) as his capital. Also the fact that Sage Durvasa foretold to King Dashrath that Rama's sons will be crowned outside Ayodhya and also the fact that Bharath's, Laxman's and Shatrugan's sons shared the other parts of Ram's Kingdom and Shatrugan's Mathura (Madhupur in those days) lends credence to the fact that Ayodhya was abondoned after Ram's departure to Vaikunth. If Ayodhya continued to be a center of politics during the rule of Ram's descendants, then why did King Vikramaditya find Ayodhya in a ruined and forested state. Taking the example of Mathura ( capital of yadavas in dwapar yug and also in kali yug where Krishna's great grandson Vajranabh and his descendants ruled after being crowned by Arjun in Indraprasth after destruction at Dwarka and also the capital of Shatrugan in Treta yug ) was never found in an abondoned state as it was an active center of ancient politics. There was considerable buddhist influence in Mathura as in ancient India, many affluent politicians in courts embraced buddhism and also many Kings including those who ruled Mathura during Buddha's time patronized buddhism. The original temple at Lord Krishna's birthplace was also built by Vajranabh and there was continuous rebuilding in and around at that site since eternity. This might not have been possible had Mathura remained in obscurity as Ayodhya was during Vikramaditya's time. King Vikramaditya is also credited with rebuilding and renovating Lord Krishna's birthplace as the one built by Vajranabh and his descendants had indeed become very old. I am not quoting Mughal invasions as they arrived very late. Anyways when they arrived, Mathura was a leading center of intellectuals and arts and was the center of politics. Ayodhya was not. Hence, the fact that Mathura was a well established center of arts, politics and religion lends credence to the fact that Mathura was never abondoned and continuously nurtured to becoming an influential region. Ayodhya was not like that. It was empty with ancient buildings, temples and forests when King Vikramaditya first found it and then began his great research.
Sage Valmiki only mentions the kingdoms that Luv and Kush inherited and also the kingdoms which Bharath's,Laxman's and Shatrugan's sons inherited. He does not give details about their style of rule and their descendants. It is mentioned in srimad bhagwatam.
 
Do you know which scripture has the story of Raja Vijramaditya? I know he is said to have descended from Raghuvansh, but what is the actual scripture that says so?
 
There is a story that Kush's original captial was Kushavati, but that he got a dream which told him to move his capital to Ayodhya. After that he moved his capital to ayodhya. Does anyone know which sourse has this story?

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