DOTW: Shri Ram's Setu Bandhan - Why Two Attempts? | 3074979

lola610

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Posted: 04 July 2012 at 8:58pm | IP Logged

I know that I have tons of work to do around here after having gone MIA for so long, so many threads to reopen/post in/edit posts in... but I caught a few minutes of BR Chopra's Ramayan before work yesterday morning, and it brought to mind this question. So, my fellow Mytho Mastikhors, I present to you our very first...

Discussion of the Week:
In both Valmiki Ramayan, Ram Charit Manas, and every televised version of the epic that I've seen thus far, Shri Ram first humbly requests the ocean itself for advice on how to get his army across to Lanka. Then, after a thunderous threat from his arrows, the Samudra Dev appears and the idea of the bridge is introduced. I was wondering - if we approach this as didactic rather than simply historical facts, how do we interpret this event? What meaning could there be behind Shri Ram demonstrating these two methods of persuasion, especially in light of the fact that those who chose to misconstrue it can say "See? Humility and gentleness always fail, we might as well go straight for the sword!" Please discuss, I look forward to everyone's input, and if similar broad topics of discussion rooted in any epic come to mind for you guys, please mention them at the help desk so we can plan them out.

Some links for reference:

Valmiki Ramayan)

http://www.valmikiramayan.net/yuddha/sarga21/yuddha_21_prose.htm
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/yuddha/sarga22/yuddha_22_prose.htm

Ram Charit Manas)

pg. 819 onwards: http://gitapress.org/BOOKS/1318/1318_Sri%20Ramchritmanas_Roman.pdf

Edited by lola610 - 04 July 2012 at 10:48pm

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ShivangBuch

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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 12:43pm | IP Logged

Lovely topic and clear question to respond to!!!!!! I am spontaneously induced to participate in it.

Let me add the links from the serial - 25:00 onwards - Dialog @ 28:00 to be specific (Ram's reply to Lakshman)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9XU7K5C9io&feature=relmfu

Lakshman: Do din pashchaat bhi hame ye shastra uthana hi padega, to itna samay kyun vyarth me khoya jaay?

Ram: Is yukti se bade anaachaar phail sakte hain Lakshman. Dusare ko avasar diye bina hi, uske viruddha shastra uthana, ahankaar janit atyaachaar ka soochak hai. Sachche shaktishali ko apni vinamrata kabhi nahi khoni chahiye.

And in this, 13:00 onwards, particularly 15:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq4TygMlaCE&feature=fvwrel

Bhay binu hoye na preeti...

Ram: Jaise moorkh ke saamne vinay dikhana, aur kutil ke sang preeti karna vyarth hota hai; Jis prakaar moh mamta me phanse hue ko gyan ka updesh dena, aur banjar dharti me beej bona viphal hota hai, usi prakaar tum jaise ahankaari ke saamne, Ram ke vinay aur pooja ka koi mol nahi pada... Shaastra keheta hai ki jis prakaar kela kaatne par hi phal deta hai, usi prakaar neech dand dene par hi jhukta hai.

Now combining these two, the conclusion of two attempts can be clear that even if you know that your first attempt will be unsuccessful and the other option will have to be exercised, it is still necessary first to establish that you are humble despite having all the abilities and other person is actually stubborn and egoistic. Directly going to the second attempt, however, knowing about the possibility of the waste of the first one is not right example to be set.

This reminds me of Krishna in Kampilya: Yadi aakraman karna hai to pehele we log aayen. Pandavon par aakraman ka aarop nahi lagna chahiye. Later in Udhyog parva, he very well knew that his peace visit is going to be futile. Still he gives the opportunity first to the adharmi to turn to dharma. Same thing Ram does by sending Angad. While accepting Vibhishan, Ram says "Thagna paap hai, thage jaanaa nahi'. So knowing the possible failure outcome of an action doesn't affect or can not affect or should not affect a man on the path of the dharma to stick to dharma - the righteous action.

Edited by ShivangBuch - 05 July 2012 at 11:21pm

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 06 July 2012 at 2:08am | IP Logged

Originally posted by lola610

Discussion of the Week:
In both Valmiki Ramayan, Ram Charit Manas, and every televised version of the epic that I've seen thus far, Shri Ram first humbly requests the ocean itself for advice on how to get his army across to Lanka. Then, after a thunderous threat from his arrows, the Samudra Dev appears and the idea of the bridge is introduced. I was wondering - if we approach this as didactic rather than simply historical facts, how do we interpret this event? What meaning could there be behind Shri Ram demonstrating these two methods of persuasion, especially in light of the fact that those who chose to misconstrue it can say "See? Humility and gentleness always fail, we might as well go straight for the sword!" Please discuss, I look forward to everyone's input, and if similar broad topics of discussion rooted in any epic come to mind for you guys, please mention them at the help desk so we can plan them out.

Some links for reference:

Valmiki Ramayan)

http://www.valmikiramayan.net/yuddha/sarga21/yuddha_21_prose.htm
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/yuddha/sarga22/yuddha_22_prose.htm

Ram Charit Manas)

pg. 819 onwards: http://gitapress.org/BOOKS/1318/1318_Sri%20Ramchritmanas_Roman.pdf

Why is it misconstruing it? In the first link that you provided, Rama himself would be voicing their statements, as he stated to Lakshman (bolded for emphasis)

Rama becoming angry with the ocean, having the outer corners of his eyes turned red, spoke those words to Lakshmana, having auspicious marks, who was in his vicinity: "O, what arrogance of the ocean, who does not appear himself personally before me! Indeed calmness, forbearance kind spoken ness and straight -forwardness- these qualities of noble men give weak results, when directed towards those having no virtues. This world honors that man, who boasts himself, is corrupt and shameless, runs about in all directions advertising himself and commits every kind of excess. In this world, it is not possible to obtain fame, glory or victory at the end of a battle, by conciliation. Behold now this ocean, having its water made suffocated soon with its crocodiles floated on all sides and broken asunder by my arrows. See here, O, Lakshmana, the coils of water snakes, the huge bodies of alligators and the trunks of sea elephants being shattered by me. I will make the ocean with its multitude of conches, oyster shells, fishes and crocodiles, dry up now in this great battle. This ocean is considering me as an incapable man endowed as I am with forbearance. It is a great mistake to show forbearance to such an individual. The Ocean is not appearing himself before me on kind words. O, Lakshmana! Bring the bow and the serpentine arrows. I shall dry up this ocean, so that our monkeys can cross it by feet. Being provoked now, I will shake this ocean, even if it is unshakable. I will force the ocean, which is demarcated by banks and agitated with thousands of waves, bereft of a boundary, by my arrows. I will agitate the great ocean, thronged with great demons."

And I agree w/ Rama above

Edited by .Vrish. - 06 July 2012 at 2:09am

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JanakiRaghunath

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Posted: 20 July 2012 at 4:52pm | IP Logged

Interesting topic, Lola!

As for the lesson I take out of this event, it is that we must always be patient with people who are proving to be an obstacle for us and win them over with peaceful methods. When they continue to be obstinate and our goal is for the betterment of mankind, then we must forcefully move ahead. Even if our goal is not for the betterment of mankind but simply for our betterment, as long as we are not harming others in achieving our goal, we must remove the obstacle in our path, first by being patient and if that fails, then by taking action.

Here's a small example. It's kind of silly in comparison to the Ram Setu story, but let's say that we are preparing for a very important paper for one of our classes in our university. Our TA (teacher's assistant) is grading us unfairly and writing snide remarks on the paper as she grades it, like "you write at the level of a 5th grade student" and "how stupid could you be that you do not know how to adhere to APA guidelines" and "I am surprised that the college even admitted you to our student body. You clearly need to return to high school."

Btw, I am not making this incident up, as this happened to one of my friends last semester. She really suffered because of this TA!

Anyway, you have two options. You could either threaten to talk to the faculty about her or you can try to reason with her. The smart thing to do is to reason with her yourself and explain that she's really hurting you by writing such remarks, and that you'd appreciate kinder criticism instead that would actually help you. This is what my friend did, especially after failing three papers in a row without constructive feedback). She went to the TA's office and had a long talk with her, but the TA rolled her eyes and told her that this was life and what could she do about it? She'd meet with this kind of attitude in her workplace too but she'd have no one to go complaining then.

After trying to reason with her thrice, and finally becoming fed-up as the semester came to an end and her grades did not improve, my friend went to our professor and lodged a complaint against the TA. The professor was dubious about her complaints at first but then took them seriously when three others complained about the same TA. All the students who had complained showed her their papers which had snide remarks written all over them in place of constructive feedback, and the TA was fired.

Anyway, this story I guess is kind of like the Ram Setu...the first attempt having failed but the second succeeding.

However, you never know if peaceful methods will work unless you try them first. The moral of the Ram Setu story is that you should always try to reason with people who are an obstacle in your path, but if they still prove to be an obstacle, then you should take matters into your own hands.

Basically, respect must be given to every being until they lose it, but just because there's a chance that they may lose it does not mean you shouldn't give the respect in the first place.

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SahasranamaM

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Posted: 13 August 2012 at 11:17pm | IP Logged

Fantastic observation Lolaji...! Clap

Other than just comparing it to the modern world tactics and management rules, I wish to see the same in a way which Rama portrayed the feelings of a common man who is filled full of grief, depressed, perplexed one. One may become short tempered and would act illogical if his beloved ones are in danger.

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Vintage.Wine

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Posted: 11 September 2012 at 10:34pm | IP Logged

Lola ...

WTH

We all know they always trudged the proper 'Saam' Daam' 'Dand' 'Bhed' way in the myths ...Much the same way the current systems ought to work. Ocean would refuse to reckon Rama's might as the God ...till the time Rama stopped pleading and making humble appeals and stirred the ocean and it's grungy (Figurative) mind that hid the cynical monster in that with tsunami of arrows LOL

This is symbolic ...rather than literal.

Also it would be too boring to read the saga if everyone listened to and obeyed everyone else. LOL

The authors of the past were maestros of the art. They knew how to deliver their knowledge to the targeted audience without making that a bit boring. Unlike modern day UNI lecturers LOL

who are far worse than all Anti Insomnia meds ...and put the students to a perpetual sleep. They must learn a thing or two from those Authors of th past who wrote the most coveted odysseys ...Ramayana, Mahabharata, And a few that are not to be named on this religious forum to keep the ambiance that way... Tongue

Just don't want this post to sound obscene in no sense of that word LOL

Lola ..You should ask this question to yourself (As a view bie/ MOD ..with weapons / arrows up your sleeves LOL

. Consider yourself RAMA and imagine me as the adamant OCEAN LOL

..).Cause none is as well positioned as you to answer that logically ...or even otherwise Tongue

... Ramayana shows the audience the way of life, the challenges people encounter each day ...and how to get over em. how to work the most difficult problems tactfully while tethering to the rules and not deviating an inch form the objective..

I would look upto LOLA rather than those myths to gather my clues ... LOL

Lola the MOD / Viewbie ..Learned one ..Meek yet determined and Evil one LOL

<< Kidding ...So she would follow those rules handling the crooks ..a light warning first ...then some strong , rigid words that suggest that an action is imminent ...and then LOLA becomes AAG KA GOLA LOL

and slays the crook, the troll ruthlessly ..

Tee- hee !!

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ur favorite pose of shri ram?	ramsitakidasi	0	254	01 December 2011 at 10:30am By ramsitakidasi
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DOTW: Shri Ram's Setu Bandhan - Why Two Attempts?

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