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\|/Doubts & Discussions about Lord Shiva Part-1\|/ (Page 14)

mnx12 Moderator
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Posted: 05 January 2012 at 2:53am | IP Logged
Nirvikalp Samadhi is attained by humans. For Lord Shivji there will be much higher state still unknown to us because he is the master of many scripts, mantras etc.Smile
 
Nirvikalpa samadhi: curtesy
In nirvikalpa samadhi we have no mind. We see the Creator, the Creation and the Observer as one Person. There the object of adoration and the person who is adoring become totally one; the Lover and the Beloved become totally one. We go beyond everything, and at the same time we see that everything is real. Here in the ordinary world I will say you are unreal and you will say I am unreal because of our different opinions. But in nirvikalpa samadhi we go beyond all differences: there the mind does not function at all.

When we enter into nirvikalpa samadhi, the first thing we feel is that our heart is larger than the universe itself. Now we see the world around us, and the universe seems infinitely larger than we are. But this is because the world and the universe are now perceived by the limited mind. When we are in nirvikalpa samadhi, we see the universe like a tiny dot inside our vast heart.

In nirvikalpa samadhi there is infinite Bliss. There is nothing in comparison to the quantity, not to speak of the quality, of that Bliss. Bliss is a vague word to most of us. We hear that there is something called Bliss, and some people say they have experienced it, but most of us have no firsthand knowledge of it. When we enter into nirvikalpa samadhi, however, we not only feel Bliss, but we grow into that Bliss.

The third thing we feel in nirvikalpa samadhi is Power. All the power that all the occultists have put together is nothing compared with the Power we have in nirvikalpa samadhi. But the power that we can take from samadhi to utilise on earth is infinitesimal compared with the entirety. It is like what we require to blink our eye. All this I am expressing through the mind; it is not exact. But I cannot express with words more of the truth that I have realised.

I wish to say only that to enter into any level of samadhi is infinitely easier than to transform the human consciousness into the divine consciousness. 

- Sri Chinmoy


Edited by mnx12 - 05 January 2012 at 3:03am

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Posted: 05 January 2012 at 3:42am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

Okay, these are the ones I can think of for now.  But I wanted to know more about Kartikeya as described in Southern scriptures.  The Northern ones, I more or less know - the reason Kartikeya was born and the killing of Tarakasura, Simhamukha & Surapadman.

The North Indian version of Kartikeya comes mainly from the Skanda Puran where Kartikeya battles and kills Tarakasur alone. No mention of Simhamukha or Surapadman.

Simhamukha and Surapadman  find mention only in the Tamil version of Skanda Puran i.e Kanda Puranam .

To answer your question-Ganesh was not created for the purpose of fighting asuras. Skanda was.

It is always believed that Ganesh is the elder son and Murugan the junior. However The story of Ganesh's birth that is popular in North India finds no resonance in any Tamil Scriptures.  In fact, I have not been able to trace any authentic scripture (in Tamil) recounting Ganesh's birth. (If some one has, please pitch in...) 

However, there is a brief but beautiful allusion to Ganesh's creation in one of poems sung by a great Shaivite Saint (Thiru Gyana Sambandhar) 

The story goes like this- Shiva and Parvati were roaming around in the heavens when they observed some Gandharva artisans at work. The artisans were creating murals depicting the process of creation. One of the murals showed a male elephant (representing the purusha aspect) and a female elephant (representing the prakriti aspect) conjoined. The mural depicting the male elephant had the samashthi  tatva embedded in it, while the female elephant had  the  viyeshti tatva  embedded in it signifying the sublime form of creation 

Shiva's glance fell on the male elephant while Parvati's glance fell on the female elephant. A brilliant being emerged  with the head of an elephant, having four hands, his face lustrous and glowing with wisdom. Ganesh had been created.

In Tamil scripture, Ganesha is the fountainhead of all knowledge. He is Pranavakara, the embodiment of 'OM'. While he does fight and kill an asura by the name 'Gajamukhasura' , fighting is not his forte. 





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Posted: 05 January 2012 at 4:24am | IP Logged
Originally posted by mnx12

Sun is also called Aaditya (son of Aditi). Sati was born after Daksh worshipped Godess Jagdamba for many years. Before that the solar system was in existance. So Aditi must be married long back before Sati's birth.

yes but sun is already exist b4 Aditi n Kashyap's marriege...

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Posted: 05 January 2012 at 4:24am | IP Logged
Thanks for your response.

In the ACK Kartikeya, Surapadman is the one who was granted a boon by Mahadev that he would not be killed by any power except Shiva's.  So, since he's not mentioned in Northern versions, it's the Southern versions which would need him to be killed by a son of Shiva's.  In which case, even if Ganesh was not created for that purpose, that's something that logically, he could have done, no, or did Surapadman get immunity against him?

If one goes by the northern version, did Shiva ever grant Taraka the same sort of boon?  If I recall right, in his case, Brahma granted Taraka the boon that only a son of Shiva would be able to kill him, and since Shiva had lost Sati and was not interested in re-marriage, Taraka assumed that he was safe and went about his adventures.

The Northern version of Ganesh has him put up quite a battle, even defeating Kartikeya.  It's only after he got his elephant head that his proclivities were more intellectual than martial.  So, under Northern traditions, had Ganesh been created first, he would have been more than adequate to trounce Taraka.

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Posted: 05 January 2012 at 6:59am | IP Logged
Vrish,

If you are  trying to reconcile the Northern and Southern versions, I don't know if we can arrive at a logical conclusion. As I said earlier, the whole story of Ganesha being created out of Parvati's sweat / haldi, the reason for his creation, his battle with the ganas, devas and Shiva himself, simply does not exist in Tamil scriptures. 

From the various scattered references , Ganesh came into existence with an elephant Head. From the very begining, he was a 'Pranavakara Murti'.  See, with the gods, the intention- at the time of creation - is of paramount importance. Ganesh was not created with an intention to kill Surapadman. Skanda was.

When Shiva and Parvati were well into their married life, the devas appealed once again for a son from Shiva who would get rid of Surapadman. Then Skanda was created. The ACK which you are referring too broadly follows the Kanda Puranam, but stops with the killing of Surapadman. It does not go on to describe his marriages to Devasena and Valli. It also skips various other events associated with him.

 

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Posted: 05 January 2012 at 7:04am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

Thanks for your response.

In the ACK Kartikeya, Surapadman is the one who was granted a boon by Mahadev that he would not be killed by any power except Shiva's.  So, since he's not mentioned in Northern versions, it's the Southern versions which would need him to be killed by a son of Shiva's.  In which case, even if Ganesh was not created for that purpose, that's something that logically, he could have done, no, or did Surapadman get immunity against him?

No, Surapadman got no such immunity. Ganesha was, simply, not considered for the job, niether was he interested. Besides he did not have the required capabilities.

If one goes by the northern version, did Shiva ever grant Taraka the same sort of boon?  If I recall right, in his case, Brahma granted Taraka the boon that only a son of Shiva would be able to kill him, and since Shiva had lost Sati and was not interested in re-marriage, Taraka assumed that he was safe and went about his adventures.

Yes, you are correct

The Northern version of Ganesh has him put up quite a battle, even defeating Kartikeya.  It's only after he got his elephant head that his proclivities were more intellectual than martial.  So, under Northern traditions, had Ganesh been created first, he would have been more than adequate to trounce Taraka.


Edited by varaali - 05 January 2012 at 7:07am

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Posted: 05 January 2012 at 8:49am | IP Logged
I'm not trying to reconcile the northern & southern versions.  What I am trying to do is work out this logic:
  • Surapadman had a boon from Shiva that only one of Shiva's own sons would be able to kill him
  • Kartikeya didn't exist then
  • After some time, Ganesh became available, while Surapadman was still persecuting the devas.  Kartikeya still didn't exist
  • The devas were willing to wait and take more punishment from the asuras while Kartikeya was born & grew up, rather than ask that Ganesh lead them
It's the last point that I'm having some trouble w/.  Yeah, granted that the northern & southern versions are different, but I'm just finding it hard to believe that Ganesh was incapable of fighting a war, which is why Kartikeya had to be introduced.

P.S.  I just discovered - the story of Skanda's birth is also narrated in the Mahabharat, while describing the various pilgrimages that Balarama did during the war b4 he arrived for the Bhima-Duryodhan battle.  It's described here  Two pages later, it goes on to describe

Accompanied by that vast host, Skanda then set out for the destruction of the daityas and the protection of the denizens of heaven. Exertion, and Victory, and Righteousness, and Success, and Prosperity, and Courage, and the Scriptures (in their embodied forms) proceeded in the van of Kartikeya's army, O king! With that terrible force, which was armed with lances, mallets, blazing brands, maces, heavy clubs, arrows, darts and spears, and which was decked with beautiful ornaments and armour, and which uttered roars like those of a proud lion, the divine Guha set out.

Beholding him, all the daityas, rakshasas and danavas, anxious with fear, fled away on all sides. Armed with diverse weapons, the celestials pursued them. Seeing (the foe flying away), Skanda, endued with energy and might, became inflamed with wrath. He repeatedly hurled his terrible weapon, the dart (he had received from Agni). The energy that he then displayed resembled a fire fed with libations of clarified butter. While the dart was repeatedly hurled by Skanda of immeasurable energy, meteoric flashes, O king, fell upon the Earth. Thunderbolts also, with tremendous noise, fell upon the earth. Everything became as frightful O king, as it becomes on the day of universal destruction. When that terrible dart was once hurled by the son of Agni, millions of darts issued from it, O bull of Bharata's race.

The puissant and adorable Skanda, filled with joy, at last slew Taraka, the chief of the daityas, endued with great might and prowess, and surrounded (in that battle) by a 100,000 heroic and mighty daityas. He then, in that battle, slew Mahisha who was surrounded by eightpadmas of daityas. He next slew Tripada who was surrounded by a 1,000 ajutas of daityas. The puissant Skanda then slew Hradodara, who was surrounded by ten nikharvas of daityas, with all his followers armed with diverse weapons. Filling the ten points of the compass, the followers of Kumara, O king, made a loud noise while those daityas were being slain, and danced and jumped and laughed in joy.

Thousands of daityas, O king, were burnt with the flames that issued from Skanda's dart, while others breathed their last, terrified by the roars of Skanda. The three worlds were frightened at the yawns of Skanda's soldiers. The foes were consumed with flames produced by Skanda. Many were slain by his roars alone. Some amongst the foes of the gods, struck with banners, were slain. Some, frightened by the sounds of bells, fell down on the surface of the Earth. Some, mangled with weapons, fell down, deprived of life. In this way the heroic and mighty Kartikeya slew innumerable foes of the gods possessed of great strength that came to fight with him.

Then Bali's son Vana of great might, getting upon the Kraunca mountain, battled with the celestial host. Possessed of great intelligence, the great generalissimo Skanda rushed against that foe of the gods. From fear of Kartikeya, he took shelter within the Kraunca mountain. Inflamed with rage, the adorable Kartikeya then pierced that mountain with that dart given him by Agni. The mountain was called Kraunca (crane) because of the sound it always produced resembled the cry of a crane. That mountain was variegated with shala trees. The apes and elephants on it were affrighted. The birds that had their abode on it rose up and wheeled around in the welkin. The snakes began to dart down its sides. It resounded also with the cries of leopards and bears in large numbers that ran hither and thither in fear. Other forests on it rang with the cries of hundreds upon hundreds of animals. Sharabhas and lions suddenly ran out. In consequence of all this that mountain, though it was reduced to a very pitiable plight, still assumed a very beautiful aspect. The vidyadharas dwelling on its summits soared into the air. The kinnaras also became very anxious, distracted by the fear caused by the fall of Skanda's dart. The daityas then, by hundreds and thousands, came out of that blazing mountain, all clad in beautiful ornaments and garlands.

The followers of Kumara, prevailing over them in battle, slew them all. The adorable Skanda, inflamed with rage, quickly slew the son ofdaitya chief (Bali) along with his younger brother, even as Indra had slain Vritra (in days before). The slayer of hostile heroes, Agni's son, pierced with his dart the Kraunca mountain, dividing his own self sometimes into many and sometimes uniting all his portions into one. Repeatedly hurled from his hand, the dart repeatedly came back to him. Even such was the might and glory of the adorable son of Agni. With redoubled heroism, and energy and fame and success, the god pierced the mountain and slew hundreds of daityas. The adorable god, having thus slain the enemies of the celestials, was worshipped and honoured by the latter and obtained great joy.

After the Kraunca mountain had been pierced and after the son of Canda had been slain, drums were beaten, O king, and conchs were blown. The celestial ladies rained floral showers in succession upon that divine lord of yogis. Auspicious breezes began to blow, bearing celestial perfumes. The gandharvas hymned his praises, as also great rishis always engaged in the performance of sacrifices. Some speak of him as the puissant son of the Grandsire, Sanat-kumara, the eldest of all the sons of Brahma. Some speak of him as the son of Maheshvara, and some as that of Agni. Some again describe him as the son of Uma or of the Krittikas or of Ganga. Hundreds and thousands of people speak of that Lord of yogis of blazing form and great might, as the son of one of those, or of either of two of those, or of any one of four of those.


Edited by .Vrish. - 05 January 2012 at 12:50pm

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Posted: 05 January 2012 at 1:37pm | IP Logged
Can't we just leave it at Kartikeya and Ganesh are brothers? Does it really matter who is older and younger?

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