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Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Singing Superstar

Hema and Judges (Page 14)

autmother Senior Member
autmother
autmother

Joined: 04 February 2006
Posts: 245

Posted: 03 April 2006 at 7:31pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by enjoysgoodmusic

True, Hema recieved far less praise than the other contestants. Like someone else said, te judges are dumb. The only thing they had against hema was his diction ( which I believe is almost perfect) and this fact was hammered over and over. THe diction was giving more importance than his deep and versitile voice. The truth is that they were prejudice against south indians and did not feel a south indian was capable of winning an all india singing contest.

Sounds a bit harsh, but that is the honest truth, but south indians are to be blamed too, since we did not stand up and support Hema like Assam did for Debojit.

ummm Senior Member
ummm
ummm

Joined: 25 February 2005
Posts: 964

Posted: 03 April 2006 at 7:58pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by autmother


I really wanted to ignore your post ummmm, but was unable to do it.



I think ummmm always has a problem in acknowledging Hema as a good singer. I dont want to start about that. Needless to say I disagree.
SO when Debojit slips his sur a liitle on songs that is ok, but you are telling us that Hema is not technically better than Debojit.
Debojit could not do the alaaps and was going flat most times when the pitch got higher and voice cracked repeatedly when he had to sing high notes.and he is way past puberty. Now I dont call that technically superior. Debojit is a good singer, no doubt, may be better than Vinit, but please dont tell me he is better than Hema.
Again what do you mean by slipping on sur.
I think we had this discussion before. You started about his VandeMataram, Mitwa about how he slipped sur. Now you are listening to him with microscopic ears for lack of a better term, but then again when it comes to other singers you let mistakes slide. HOnestly I dont see your assessment any different than ID or HR whichwas biased based on other factors(which you know already) other than music, singing, sur, taal or voice quality.



Hello there! Loooong time!! Wink

I should have expected this response coming! Smile

Lets get a few things straightened -

1. There are countless fans of Hema everywhere, but NOT everyone is his fan. It is very good that he has a fiercely dedicated fan following especially in folks like yourself and hats off to that. If I were in Hema's shoes, I would be overwhelmed to see the love. But please do allow some breathing space to those who beg to differ in opinion.

2. I sure have criticized Hema, but I have also said that he is a "good", "impressive", pleasing" singer, although I have stopped short of calling him "outstanding", "charismatic" or "best". You possibly missed the good things I said about him, and that's understandable - there are zillions of posts on this forum. Just to tell a bit about me - I am neither a Hema fan, nor a Hema hater. I am just neutral and I enjoy being that.

3. When Debu made a mistake, I called it a mistake. Same with Vinit. Hema is no exception either. But if I am not mistaken, in our previous discussion on Mitwa, you did not agree that Hema had lost sur in the tananana lines. If you happen to revisit the thread, you'll notice others (incl some Hema fans) agreeing that he lost sur there. We can get into a good technical discussion (esp since you have a classical background too) if we leave biases aside and see white as white and black as black. Then probably we can talk about technical superiority in general and wrt Hema, Vinit and Debu.

4. Reagrding my statement on ignoring Debu's cracked voice : In Saathiya, hema got a 10 even when he had a cracked voice, he missed lyrics and had diction trouble. But as I have said before, these mistakes were worth ignoring (in that particular song, if I may emphasize) simply because he showed the courage to attempt such a difficult song live and did justice to it for most part. If you look at the bigger picture of Debu's qawwali recital, you'll probably agree that that one cracked voice mistake was worth ignoring as compared to the justice he did to the rest of the song. But there's a big difference in these 2 situations - while Hema's mistakes were overlooked by the mentors, Debu's were not! He got a 6. Any guesses on who should cry injustice? Smile

5, ID's bias - lets talk about it some other day, unless you want to go over some older threads in which ID's "hypothetical bias" was discussed.

6. HR's bias - I think we both agree that his bias was only towards Vinit, and against the rest! Not sure there is anything to discuss there. Smile

ummm Senior Member
ummm
ummm

Joined: 25 February 2005
Posts: 964

Posted: 03 April 2006 at 8:01pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by surma_bhopali

Haan to miyan, keh riya hoon na Hema behtar hai. Lakkad doon? ekdum khara hai.

Bhopali ji, ye "lakkad" kya hai? Kahin "lappad" to nahi? Wink

 

madhavi_r108 Goldie
madhavi_r108
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Joined: 14 December 2005
Posts: 1541

Posted: 03 April 2006 at 8:11pm | IP Logged
Like autmother ji, I really didn't want to comment about this especially to Ummmm ji's comments, because we all are entitled to have an opinion of our own and I know that even if I sit in front of you and present u this as an argument, you are going to find flaws with Hemu and there is no problem in that. You had mentioned before that you are a trained singer I think, so I really respect your opinion; jsut dont agree with it.

1) Hemu's voice cracking is a 'natural' phenomena, he is 17 and at that age it happens. Vinits voice cracked when he sang Tu Mile and Fiza.. Hema's voice cracked when he was singing soem exceptionally tough songs. If you tell me that Saathiya wasn't as tough as a Tu Mile or Fiza, and it was easier, I will really have to look back at my own music learning lessons! To sing a Rahman song with so much of overlaps and to do that without cracking, means something. Debojeet's voice cracking just shows that he couldn't take that pitch that high. At his age, chances are unless he works REALLY hard, he cant take that high pitch ever. In case of Hemu, he is still 17, let his voice get into path and then if it still cracks, I'll agree with you.

2) I don't think Vinit was better in sur department than Hemu. Vinit sang to his strengths ALWAYS. His biggest strenght was to sing slower songs, and look at most of his songs, they are relatively slow, and they dont have much of a speed variation in the song. Tera Jadoo chal gaya is high and stays high, it doesnt go low - high - medium - low - high.. Same with Fiza..its like High - Low - High... Yeh Dil - High High Higher!.. Look at Hemu's graph.. 'Nahin Saamne low - high (preyasi on one note) - medium - low - high (secong preyasi) - medium - low, saathiya medium - high - low - medium - low - high - medium - low.. if u r variating songs so much and if u can make the song sound good, for common ears, its on sur! Hemu's lost sur sometimes, agreed, probably more than Vinit but that by NO means makes Vinit more pakka on sur..ask Vinit to sing a Ramta Jogi or a Tanhayee or a Hay Rama and then we'll see.. Hemu is classically trained and very few classically trained singers with almost 13 years experience go 'off' sur ! My POV only

3) your comment saying that mentors having other reasons why they gave less points to Hemu , I agree with you partly. I've mentioned before that I felt they gave him less points because they expected more from him. Quite frankly, I never had anything against their marking, because barring his Mera Karma Tu (where he was bad, there he slipped off sur several times) and bachna ae haseeno.. he always got over 8..so that means he was good.. infact he got more marks than Debo, so if we keep 'mentometer' as the judge, he was defn. better than Debo.. I think the argument is the fact that even though the mentor might have giving a high mark, he never explained y..sometimes doing that gives the audience an idea..like Adesh explained why Nihira's rangeela or I love you were great.. i think these comments matter a LOT !

Ummm ji, no offence meant..u r entitled to ur opinion.. but just wanted to add some points to it..
autmother Senior Member
autmother
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Joined: 04 February 2006
Posts: 245

Posted: 03 April 2006 at 8:24pm | IP Logged
agree with Madhavi. this is an unending discussion. But one thing is sure ummmmmm whatever you say, I dont think your analysis is based on music. YOu probably got a few set ideas from someone who knows a little music and you are set on them, about the diction, voice cracking and the same stuff.
I am too old to be fan and stuff like that. But hema's voice is unique. You just are making a point to criticise him with whatever little you can find. I could agree more if you made an intelligent musical analysis as opposed to saying the same things the mentors are saying all along with no substance. I definitely think the judges were biased with Hema just like you. I dont know what you keep harping about Tanhayee. He never slipped sur. HIs voice cracking was a natural phenomenon, but that is not the same as slipping sur, you need to know the difference, but cant say the same about 27 year old Debojit. His voice cracked because he couldnt singthe notes and it was not even that high an octave. I am not criticising Debojit He still sang pretty well. But it is not injustice since he did not sing well. You know this will go on and on and I dont want to keep harping on it.
But you are entitled to your opinion and I to mine.

For your kind information by first choice would be Nihira and Nihira only. I do like Hema's voice a lot and his singing too. Nobody is saying he is the best, but yes he is the best among SRGMP 2005 boys/men. You need to have a valid point when you make your comments,not generic, which we have been hearing from judges already.
realmusic Senior Member
realmusic
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Joined: 20 January 2006
Posts: 212

Posted: 03 April 2006 at 8:33pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by ummm

3. When Debu made a mistake, I called it a mistake. Same with Vinit. Hema is no exception either. But if I am not mistaken, in our previous discussion on Mitwa, you did not agree that Hema had lost sur in the tananana lines. If you happen to revisit the thread, you'll notice others (incl some Hema fans) agreeing that he lost sur there. We can get into a good technical discussion (esp since you have a classical background too) if we leave biases aside and see white as white and black as black. Then probably we can talk about technical superiority in general and wrt Hema, Vinit and Debu.

4. Reagrding my statement on ignoring Debu's cracked voice : In Saathiya, hema got a 10 even when he had a cracked voice, he missed lyrics and had diction trouble. But as I have said before, these mistakes were worth ignoring (in that particular song, if I may emphasize) simply because he showed the courage to attempt such a difficult song live and did justice to it for most part. If you look at the bigger picture of Debu's qawwali recital, you'll probably agree that that one cracked voice mistake was worth ignoring as compared to the justice he did to the rest of the song. But there's a big difference in these 2 situations - while Hema's mistakes were overlooked by the mentors, Debu's were not! He got a 6. Any guesses on who should cry injustice? Smile


I llistened to the Mitwa - Tananana part, Hema does not really lose sur . He sings that very quietly so it appears so. You have to listen to it aloud - preferably with headphones.

Debo's qawwali song was a brave attempt, but he was out of his league. He did well in parts, but for the most part he totally lost the rhythm of the song; and in some places, the sur. That is why he was judged harshly.

ummm Senior Member
ummm
ummm

Joined: 25 February 2005
Posts: 964

Posted: 03 April 2006 at 8:37pm | IP Logged

Appreciate your comments Madhavi. Please see a little input from me in your comment below.

Originally posted by madhavir108

Like autmother ji, I really didn't want to comment about this especially to Ummmm ji's comments, because we all are entitled to have an opinion of our own and I know that even if I sit in front of you and present u this as an argument, you are going to find flaws with Hemu and there is no problem in that. You had mentioned before that you are a trained singer I think, so I really respect your opinion; jsut dont agree with it.

You are right. There are several debatable points on which we might find it next to impossible to convince each other, and coming to think of it, it probably doesn't matter either. It's like discussing who is better - Ashaji or Lataji, and no one answer that I can think of. It is the same with all the contestants - they are more or less equal, it's just that we tend to like somethings about someone more. I do respect your opinion too, and to a certain degree, I agree as well.

I am not really a trained singer - I started learning Hindustani Classical, but did not pursue it enough to call myself in the "trained" category. I am just a keen music lover like you and nothing more than that.

1) Hemu's voice cracking is a 'natural' phenomena, he is 17 and at that age it happens. Vinits voice cracked when he sang Tu Mile and Fiza.. Hema's voice cracked when he was singing soem exceptionally tough songs. If you tell me that Saathiya wasn't as tough as a Tu Mile or Fiza, and it was easier, I will really have to look back at my own music learning lessons! To sing a Rahman song with so much of overlaps and to do that without cracking, means something. Debojeet's voice cracking just shows that he couldn't take that pitch that high. At his age, chances are unless he works REALLY hard, he cant take that high pitch ever. In case of Hemu, he is still 17, let his voice get into path and then if it still cracks, I'll agree with you.

Definitely puberty plays a big role. Voice cracks even when teen boys talk, leave along sing. But it is not the only reason why voice cracks. It cracks otherwise too, even to the best of the folks when they are siging live. Sukhwinder is a good example. I have heard his voice crack on more than one occassion and Hariharanji's voice once while singing live. But in a competition, if it is forgivable for one, it should be the same for others too, irrespective of age differences.

I'm not sure what gave you the impression that I called Saathiya easy. Infact, it is one of the really difficult songs to sing live. Even Sonu appeared extremely cautious singing this song live in Pakistani tour and not to forget, the recorded version was definitely one up on the live. So you are right - you don't have to go back to singing lessons for tis reason!


2) I don't think Vinit was better in sur department than Hemu. Vinit sang to his strengths ALWAYS. His biggest strenght was to sing slower songs, and look at most of his songs, they are relatively slow, and they dont have much of a speed variation in the song. Tera Jadoo chal gaya is high and stays high, it doesnt go low - high - medium - low - high.. Same with Fiza..its like High - Low - High... Yeh Dil - High High Higher!.. Look at Hemu's graph.. 'Nahin Saamne low - high (preyasi on one note) - medium - low - high (secong preyasi) - medium - low, saathiya medium - high - low - medium - low - high - medium - low.. if u r variating songs so much and if u can make the song sound good, for common ears, its on sur! Hemu's lost sur sometimes, agreed, probably more than Vinit but that by NO means makes Vinit more pakka on sur..ask Vinit to sing a Ramta Jogi or a Tanhayee or a Hay Rama and then we'll see.. Hemu is classically trained and very few classically trained singers with almost 13 years experience go 'off' sur ! My POV only

Lets just agree to disagree here. Although I hear you and I'm with you when you say that Vinit sang only a certain style of songs.


3) your comment saying that mentors having other reasons why they gave less points to Hemu , I agree with you partly. I've mentioned before that I felt they gave him less points because they expected more from him. Quite frankly, I never had anything against their marking, because barring his Mera Karma Tu (where he was bad, there he slipped off sur several times) and bachna ae haseeno.. he always got over 8..so that means he was good.. infact he got more marks than Debo, so if we keep 'mentometer' as the judge, he was defn. better than Debo.. I think the argument is the fact that even though the mentor might have giving a high mark, he never explained y..sometimes doing that gives the audience an idea..like Adesh explained why Nihira's rangeela or I love you were great.. i think these comments matter a LOT !

The mentometers could be taken as an averaging out tool, if all mentors were rankig all performances. But Hema's were not ranked by AS and Debu's were not ranked by ID, so anyone getting 8 or 10 and someone getting 6 or 8 cannot really be compared.

 
Ummm ji, no offence meant..u r entitled to ur opinion.. but just wanted to add some points to it..

Appreciate that. As always, thanks for sharing your opinion. Please drop the ji. I am definitely older than you, but like to consider myself young! Wink

ummm Senior Member
ummm
ummm

Joined: 25 February 2005
Posts: 964

Posted: 03 April 2006 at 8:41pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by autmother

agree with Madhavi. this is an unending discussion. But one thing is sure ummmmmm whatever you say, I dont think your analysis is based on music. YOu probably got a few set ideas from someone who knows a little music and you are set on them, about the diction, voice cracking and the same stuff.
I am too old to be fan and stuff like that. But hema's voice is unique. You just are making a point to criticise him with whatever little you can find. I could agree more if you made an intelligent musical analysis as opposed to saying the same things the mentors are saying all along with no substance. I definitely think the judges were biased with Hema just like you. I dont know what you keep harping about Tanhayee. He never slipped sur. HIs voice cracking was a natural phenomenon, but that is not the same as slipping sur, you need to know the difference, but cant say the same about 27 year old Debojit. His voice cracked because he couldnt singthe notes and it was not even that high an octave. I am not criticising Debojit He still sang pretty well. But it is not injustice since he did not sing well. You know this will go on and on and I dont want to keep harping on it.
But you are entitled to your opinion and I to mine.

For your kind information by first choice would be Nihira and Nihira only. I do like Hema's voice a lot and his singing too. Nobody is saying he is the best, but yes he is the best among SRGMP 2005 boys/men. You need to have a valid point when you make your comments,not generic, which we have been hearing from judges already.

Please feel free to disagree, but I would appreciate you not making "guesses" about my musical background, especially in careless words. Thanks in advance!

 

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