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TEC>Hangwizard Results>Pg 194 :D (Page 56)

achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

Joined: 30 June 2005
Posts: 3043

Posted: 23 April 2006 at 8:26am | IP Logged
Originally posted by T.

Originally posted by achal

I dunno about this one either.. Are you sure that love is the charm needed to seal a horcrux.. I've never heard this before.. Maybe it isn't love that is needed to seal a horcrux at all, since making a horcrux is a very evil thing, and it requires killing, and splitting of the soul....


Exactly. But, as Slughorn said you need to also seal the horcrux into an object with a charm. What charm was performed on that night? you say there was a splitting of the soul. But, you agree with me that love was too pure a thing to seal anything as evil as a horcrux.

So, how did the horcrux get sealed in a SCAR, in a WOUND of all things?

We talked about the charm of love protecting Harry that night.. So, maybe it was the charm of love that sealed the scar, the horcrux, in the first place.. Other horcruxes might be sealed by something else, but if the scar is the horcrux, then maybe it is protected by the shield of love that is protecting Harry as well, since the scar is on his forehead.. Well, love is the most powerful charm in the world. and I bet whatever is used to seal the other horcruxes is not as powerful as love.. That makes it the evil that is in the scar (meaning Voldy's soul) against love, the most positive, powerful thing in the world.. Maybe that's why the scar doesn't have that much affect on Harry, and Voldy isn't able to possess Harry, like he was able to possess Ginny... It is meantioned on the book many times that love is most important, this mught be one of the most important causes of love in this book....

Another argument you made was that Voldy would kill off a horcrux which turned against him. Again, that does not make sense as that would bring him closer to mortality. But, if he lives after killing Harry, and his own soul within Harry that is against him, then he might feel that he can, and will, certainly kill more people, therefore being able to make more horcruxes... Voldemort means one who can never die. His greatest fear is death or mortality. Why would he subject his own soul to his greatest fear?

Also, How can Voldemort (not harry the "object" or harry's scar the "object") turn against Voldemort himself? Tom Riddle in the Diary did not. how would Harry's SCAR turn against him?

But, like I just said earlier, if Voldy's soul in the scar, is sealed off by love, than that would certainly have a huge affect on that soul.. It is the most powerful thing against Voldy's evil soul, don't u think that would have a greater affect and the soul within would be forced to do what Harry does, or not act at all.. It couldn't possess Harry completely if it is sealed by love.. Voldy himself, with his own whole soul, was nothing against love, so what is just part of his soul selaed by love gonna do? Just maybe some side-affects that Harry gets...

Again, I repeat, there is a "connection" between them which is the scar. It gives voldy access to some of Harry's thoughts via long distance and vice versa. The scar is something like the Dark Mark which the Death Eaters have. They are summoned by Voldy even from great distances. The marks are not souls. But does the death mark on other death eater's arm allow them to feel what Voldy is feeling? The only difference between them and the scar was that the spell backfired giving harry more power and knowledge than he was supposed to have. The connection is special but it is NOT A HORCRUX. I agree with u that the connection is special, that it is something different... And, since I can't give any other name to this "special connection" I'm calling it a horcrux...

With regards to the prophecy, it is very clear that Neville will not kill Voldemort especially in Book 6. I can't quote verbatim, but that entire chat with whom? made it very clear that Harry would have to kill Voldy not anyone else. Well then maybe he will kill Voldy and die later... But, I'm only for one thing, HE WILL DIE, no matter what the reason is...

As Dumbledore said: The prophecy was not important, BUT, Voldy ACTED on it and made the first attack.

But, Voldy hasn't heard all of the phrophecy, has he? He might want to go a kill Harry, and at that time, really unexpectedly,  Neville might come beside him and kill him.. If this is the case, then it'll be easier for Neville than to come face-to-face with the Dark Lord.. Although I have to say, this would be very stupid..Embarrassed

He gave Harry the mark and powers and he even left some sort of a connection between them. Harry MUST kill him in the end as Neither can live while the other survives.

Yup, neither can live while the other survives.. That is talking about  when both of them living... But what about both of them dying? The phrophecy doesn't talk about that does it? So that is a great possibility...

Even if Harry would not want to kill, Voldy will never stop hunting for him (out of fear that Harry could kill him in the end). It was the difference between defending oneself when attacked unexpected and going into battle with one's head held high. After harry finds all the horcruxes, he will have to kill Voldy.

After Harry finds all the horcruxes, and I think u forgot to mention, destroy them as well, will he have to kill Voldy.. But what is at that time, he finds out, he, himself, is a horcrux. Wouldn't he have to destory himself as well?

No one else will be able to destroy Voldy, least of all Neville. But, he could be... Afterall, he was the other person who could be marked by Voldy due to the phrophecy...

Neville is important, but his strength is no match for Voldy. Characters change in the course of 6 books. Ginny grew stronger too. That does not mean she will kill Voldy.

But it is diferrent.. Ginny getting stronger, that is in case if asking Harry out, and that sort of thing.. Not strong enough to kill Voldy.. And besides, she wasn't mentioned at all, when Dumbledore was talking about the phrophecy as the other person who could be marked by Voldy.. The only thing I don't understand is why is Neville the one mentioned while talking about the phrophecy, why does JKR give so much importance to him?

achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

Joined: 30 June 2005
Posts: 3043

Posted: 23 April 2006 at 8:28am | IP Logged
Originally posted by zara29

Originally posted by T.



Also, How can Voldemort (not harry the "object" or harry's scar the "object") turn against Voldemort himself? Tom Riddle in the Diary did not. how would Harry's SCAR turn against him?

but the diary was just an object & it possess Voldy's soul..& Harry is a living being...He has his own soul too...Tonguethough he is connected 2 voldy through his scar but v cant say his scar is just an object...

Yup, agree with zara here.. BTW zara, nice to have u for this debate thing as well.. Welcome to the club!Wink


Originally posted by T.



No one else will be able to destroy Voldy, least of all Neville.

Neville is important, but his strength is no match for Voldy. Characters change in the course of 6 books. Ginny grew stronger too. That does not mean she will kill Voldy.

lol..Ginny killing Voldy...LOL..but bro (that's be sisWink)...Neville indirectly related 2 that [fake]prophecyEmbarrassedso..He [may ] hav imp part in killing voldy

Yup, agree with u here as well..

achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

Joined: 30 June 2005
Posts: 3043

Posted: 23 April 2006 at 8:36am | IP Logged
BTW, I'm purple font, just so there's not much confusionn...Tongue

Originally posted by T.

Originally posted by zara29

Originally posted by T.



Also, How can Voldemort (not harry the "object" or harry's scar the "object") turn against Voldemort himself? Tom Riddle in the Diary did not. how would Harry's SCAR turn against him?

but the diary was just an object & it possess Voldy's soul..& Harry is a living being...He has his own soul too...Tonguethough he is connected 2 voldy through his scar but v cant say his scar is just an object...

But his scar is not a living thing. It is a wound on Harry (the living thing). If the scar is possessed by Voldemort, it will not turn against Voldemort. (Confused much? LOLSee, thats why I dont think the scar is a horcrux. Its just too weird.)   

But the scar just had part of Voldy's soul, compared to whole Harry's soul.. I think in this case, Harry's soul would be much stronger than just part of Voldy's soul.. Also remember that Harry is protected by love...

Originally posted by T.



No one else will be able to destroy Voldy, least of all Neville.

Neville is important, but his strength is no match for Voldy. Characters change in the course of 6 books. Ginny grew stronger too. That does not mean she will kill Voldy.

lol..Ginny killing Voldy...LOL..but bro...Neville indirectly related 2 that [fake]prophecyEmbarrassedso..He [may ] hav imp part in killing voldy

Bro kaun? Confused I am not a bro. Tongue

I disagree. As I had said earlier, the prophecy was only "fake" until Voldy made it come true by killing the Potters. Neither Harry nor Voldy will rest while the other survives. One of them has to kill the other. And if Evil (voldemort) triumphs over good by killing harry, then the entire "moral" of this tale is lost.

But, it doesn't at all talk about both of them dying, so if JKR really were to act upon the phrophecy, both of them could die..

Neville was another possibility but ONLY before Voldy acted on the prophecy. He may play an important role in getting Harry to Voldy so that Harry can kill him. So, by THAT account, he may play an important part in Voldy's death. But, he will NOT directly kill Voldy.

He might not, and Harry might have to kill hismelf after killing Voldy, after finding out he is a horcrux..



Edited by achal - 23 April 2006 at 8:38am
achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

Joined: 30 June 2005
Posts: 3043

Posted: 23 April 2006 at 8:42am | IP Logged
Originally posted by T.

Originally posted by lunza

Originally posted by T.

Originally posted by lunza

well , i am kind of confused about Harry is a horcrux theory ...

Most of the people who believe that harry is a horcrux , feel that Harry accidently has become one when voldy went to godric's hollow to kill the potters ..
dumbly said that the soul splits whenever someone commits murder , and the way jkr has described it voldy has committed a hell lot of murders , but he hasnt gone about making horcruxes everytime he commits murders , as dumbly said he makes them for particularly "significant deaths" .. and dumbly feels that voldy wud have chosen harry as that "significant death" after which he intended to make the horcrux ... and voldy's soul again split that night when he murdered lily and james , then he did the AVk on harry but that dint work as the curse rebounded and then he lost his body and became a wandering spirit/vapour ... so i agree wid tejas when he says that vapormort couldnt have have held that wand required to perform that spell/incantation required to encase the piece of soul into an object and make it a horcrux ...also if harry was a horcrux , he would have to kill/destroy himself BEFORE destroying voldy which is logically impossibleand i say BEFORE bcuz dumbly said that the seventh piece of soul will be the last that anybody wishing to kill voldemort must attack , the piece that lives in his body
ok so now i will start CONTRADICTING myself :
the ring , which is a horcrux and which is there on the side of the hbp cover shows a crack which luks a bit like harry's scar , which makes me wonder whether it is some special "mark" of voldemort's horcruxes ... i wonder if the cup , locket etc also have that mark . dumbly said it is not advisable to make a living being a horcrux , but it is not impossible , if harry is a horcrux , it might explain why he feels such a strong
psychic connection with voldemort , bcuz he has a piece of voldy's soul inside him ....

Nice theory, but I dont think it works for all the horcruxes. For e.g. the diary did not have any significant markings on it.

Also, horcruxes do not purposefully reveal themselves, so any particular mark would identify the horcrux fairly easily. Dumbledore would not have had much trouble pointing that out to Harry - in fact, a distinctive mark would have made his search easier.

well , maybe thaz the point ...

 thaz the least jkr can do to make harry's work a bit easier ! and its not soooo distinctive that harry will jus look at the "scar mark" and go -  "Aaaahhhhh ... luk ron ! there is a crack here , wait let me try to recollect , there was a mark like that even in the diary ... oh i get it ! its a horcrux mark !" so it wont be such an early realisation ! and dumbly mite not have noticed the crack bcuz harry showed him the diary horcrux after destroying it .... no wait , i was thinking about sumthin ..

the diary wasnt exactly destroyed ... i mean .. it did not poof ! vanish in thin air ! it was still tangible when harry showed it to dumbly , so it cud have been used as a normal diary ... u know, writing on its pages ..... i am jus wondering if that applies to human horcruxes too ... i mean we are assuming that if harry is a horcrux , he will die , but he has a soul too , i mean if he is a horcrux his body is hosting two souls .....

Good point. IF he is hosting 2 souls, he needn't die. His own soul can sustain him, isnt it?

But he has to... Even if he ends up killing Voldy, that part of Voldy's soul will always remain within him... So, that's not destroying the evil completely...

ok , now i have another wild theory , dont think i am dumb for suggesting this ... but do u think that when a person tries to make an object a horcrux ... it makes some kind of an opening for the soul to enter , hence the crack ?

LOL , there is an easy way for harry to destroy himself if he is a horcrux ...

Ok, but, I ask the same question I asked achal. What was used to seal the "crack"? LOL I answered that in the other post.....sort of....Tongue

all he has to do is get himself kissed by a dementor ... too bad dementors wont spare harry's soul , after all two souls in one body is a very tempting meal ....

 

alia IF-Rockerz
alia
alia

Joined: 17 October 2004
Posts: 6722

Posted: 23 April 2006 at 9:10am | IP Logged
heated discussion goin on...
cool... though am a lil Confused here...
hehe...
will sleep a lil then come back when brains start workin again Tongue

LOL
achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

Joined: 30 June 2005
Posts: 3043

Posted: 23 April 2006 at 9:20am | IP Logged
Originally posted by alia

heated discussion goin on...
cool... though am a lil Confused here...
hehe...
will sleep a lil then come back when brains start workin again Tongue

LOL


Yay, u'r back!! Hope u start posting soon, and are for this discussion!WinkTongue


Edited by achal - 23 April 2006 at 9:22am
lunza IF-Rockerz
lunza
lunza

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Posts: 9951

Posted: 23 April 2006 at 10:05am | IP Logged
OMG , i visited the forum jus today morning , two more pages hav bin added LOL ...

By the way achal , did u read my second post on page 71 ? what do u think about it ?
lunza IF-Rockerz
lunza
lunza

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Posts: 9951

Posted: 23 April 2006 at 10:21am | IP Logged
ok , this is what rowling has to say about neville's connection to the prophecy :

FAQ Poll #3
Date Started / Ended:
December 10th, 2004 / May 15th, 2005

Runner-up questions:
- How many chapters will Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince have? (Subject to editorial changes, of course) - 7%
- Will Ron ever manage to become more than just good friends with a girl? - 25%

Winning question & answer (with 68% of the vote):
What is the significance of Neville being the other boy to whom the prophecy might have referred?

Finally, I am answering the poll question! I am sorry it has taken so long, but let me start by saying how glad I am that this was the question that received the most votes, because this was the one that I most wanted to answer. Some of you might not like what I am going to say - but I'll address that issue at the end of my response!

To recap: Neville was born on the 30th of July, the day before Harry, so he too was born 'as the seventh month dies'. His parents, who were both famous Aurors, had 'thrice defied' Voldemort, just as Lily and James had. Voldemort was therefore presented with the choice of two baby boys to whom the prophecy might apply. However, he did not entirely realise what the implications of attacking them might be, because he had not heard the entire prophecy. As Dumbledore says:

'He [the eavesdropper] only heard the beginning, the part foretelling the birth of a boy in July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you.'

In effect, the prophecy gave Voldemort the choice of two candidates for his possible nemesis. In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One - to give him tools no other wizard possessed - the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind.

So what would have happened if Voldemort had decided that the pure-blood, not the half-blood, was the bigger threat? What would have happened if he had attacked Neville instead? Harry wonders this during the course of 'Half-Blood Prince' and concludes, rightly, that the answer hinges on whether or not one of Neville's parents would have been able, or prepared, to die for their son in the way that Lily died for Harry. If they hadn't, Neville would have been killed outright. Had Frank or Alice thrown themselves in front of Neville, however, the killing curse would have rebounded just as it did in Harry's case, and Neville would have been the one who survived with the lightning scar. What would this have meant? Would a Neville bearing the lightning scar have been as successful at evading Voldemort as Harry has been? Would Neville have had the qualities that have enabled Harry to remain strong and sane throughout all of his many ordeals? Although Dumbledore does not say as much, he does not believe so: he believes Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to be able to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar.

So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King? Well, it does not give him either hidden powers or a mysterious destiny. He remains a 'normal' wizarding boy, albeit one with a past, in its way, as tragic as Harry's. As you saw in 'Order of the Phoenix,' however, Neville is not without his own latent strengths. It remains to be seen how he will feel if he ever finds out how close he came to being the Chosen One.

Some of you, who have been convinced that the prophecy marked Neville, in some mystical fashion, for a fate intertwined with Harry's, may find this answer rather dull. Yet I was making what I felt was a significant point about Harry and Voldemort, and about prophecies themselves, in showing Neville as the also-ran. If neither boy was 'pre-ordained' before Voldemort's attack to become his possible vanquisher, then the prophecy (like the one the witches make to Macbeth, if anyone has read the play of the same name) becomes the catalyst for a situation that would never have occurred if it had not been made. Harry is propelled into a terrifying position he might never have sought, while Neville remains the tantalising 'might-have-been'. Destiny is a name often given in retrospect to choices that had dramatic consequences.

Of course, none of this should be taken to mean that Neville does not have a significant part to play in the last two novels, or the fight against Voldemort. As for the prophecy itself, it remains ambiguous, not only to readers, but to my characters. Prophecies (think of Nostradamus!) are usually open to many different interpretations. That is both their strength and their weakness.

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