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TEC>Hangwizard Results>Pg 194 :D (Page 55)

zara29 IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 23 April 2006 at 1:48am | IP Logged

Originally posted by lunza

ok , i wud just like to add another thing , dont mean to offend anyone but this debate has turned from whether harry is going to die in the 7th book to whether harry is a horcrux or not ...

even if harry is not a horcrux , it doesnt mean that he cannot die ....

thats exactly wat I said earlier in my reply that..Harry can die due to sum other reasons/causes tooEmbarrassed..ITS not just horcrux's issueEmbarrassed

 

hazelgirl IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 23 April 2006 at 1:59am | IP Logged
grt debate is goin...i love it Tongue
zara29 IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 23 April 2006 at 2:03am | IP Logged

Originally posted by achal

Originally posted by T.

Very valid points! I agree with you that when he commits murder, his soul split in two.. So, when he had killed James and Lily, his soul had already split in two.. So, when he when to hit Harry with that spell, it rebounded so his soul, already split in two, when into two different places, one of which became Harry's scar, and the other one remained in him, and since the speel rebounded, it hit him as well, destroying his body. So, the soul of him which was remaining didn't need a wand at all.. And, I agree if Harry was a horcrux, he'd have to kill himself before  Voldemort dies, and this is where the part of Neville comes in.. I've already said this once before in another topic, but I think then Neville will go in and kill Voldemort.. I guess we all agree that Neville will have a very important role to play at the end, and this might be it.. Otherwise, JKR would'nt give so much importance to Neville in the first place.

I doubt this will happen as the prophecy clearly states that only the one marked by the Dark Lord can kill him. But during the whole fifth and the sixth book, doesn't Dumbledore very much emphasize that everything said by the phrophecy doesn't have to come true? If Harry was the one to kill Voldy, then why would JKR emphasize this so much in the books?

yup! everyhting written in the prophecy is not supposed 2 cum true...even in 6th book Dumbledore made harry understand that prophecy is not at all true..it was voldy who thought it to be true...Embarrassed..so I think the prophecy issue doesnt hav 2 do anyhting now neither with voldy nor with harry...

Originally posted by T.

 Neville is not marked by him in any way. Also, he has never come face to face with Voldy. It does not make sense for him to be able to kill Voldy.
Originally posted by achal

Ahh, but, in the fifth and the sixth book, JKR also shows Neville getting braver and braver.. Well what is the purpose of this? He was also fighting the death eaters in the sixth book, and why would Dumbledore mention him in the fifth book while talking about the phrophecy at all? Why would he mention that that is the phrophecy wasn't for Harry, then it would be meant for Neville?

Originally posted by T.

Moreover, titling the books "Harry Potter" would be kind of pointless if Harry did not kill Voldy, isnt it?

Originally posted by achal


I'm not saying for sure that this'll hapen, and Neville will end up killing Voldemort, but it might happen.. Harry will still be a true hero, killing himself for the sake of all witches and wizards to destroy the evil, and Neville will have some respect in his community as well, and his parents will be well-known, and of course his grandmother too.. During the whole book, JKR makes us feel sorry for Neville and his parents, well if he does end up doing this, it'll be really great for Neville and will definitely earn some respect for his parents.. It'll be a win-win since Harry will look like a true hero as well...


Me too said this earlier in sum other topic that Neville might be a gr88 help 2 harry....otherwise JKR wudnt hav given much importance 2 nevilleEmbarrassed....
btw if neville kills voldy this doesnt make harry's all struggle go in vain...He will still be the hero....as he has been deafeating voldy since book 1...so such an end[neville killing voldy] wont affect his hero imageEmbarrassed
btw gr88 debate by T. & achalClapClap


Edited by zara29 - 23 April 2006 at 2:05am
Morgoth IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 23 April 2006 at 4:54am | IP Logged

Originally posted by achal

I dunno about this one either.. Are you sure that love is the charm needed to seal a horcrux.. I've never heard this before.. Maybe it isn't love that is needed to seal a horcrux at all, since making a horcrux is a very evil thing, and it requires killing, and splitting of the soul....


Exactly. But, as Slughorn said you need to also seal the horcrux into an object with a charm. What charm was performed on that night? you say there was a splitting of the soul. But, you agree with me that love was too pure a thing to seal anything as evil as a horcrux.

So, how did the horcrux get sealed in a SCAR, in a WOUND of all things?

Another argument you made was that Voldy would kill off a horcrux which turned against him. Again, that does not make sense as that would bring him closer to mortality. Voldemort means one who can never die. His greatest fear is death or mortality. Why would he subject his own soul to his greatest fear?

Also, How can Voldemort (not harry the "object" or harry's scar the "object") turn against Voldemort himself? Tom Riddle in the Diary did not. how would Harry's SCAR turn against him?

Again, I repeat, there is a "connection" between them which is the scar. It gives voldy access to some of Harry's thoughts via long distance and vice versa. The scar is something like the Dark Mark which the Death Eaters have. They are summoned by Voldy even from great distances. The marks are not souls. The only difference between them and the scar was that the spell backfired giving harry more power and knowledge than he was supposed to have. The connection is special but it is NOT A HORCRUX.

With regards to the prophecy, it is very clear that Neville will not kill Voldemort especially in Book 6. I can't quote verbatim, but that entire chat made it very clear that Harry would have to kill Voldy not anyone else.

As Dumbledore said: The prophecy was not important, BUT, Voldy ACTED on it and made the first attack.

He gave Harry the mark and powers and he even left some sort of a connection between them. Harry MUST kill him in the end as Neither can live while the other survives.

Even if Harry would not want to kill, Voldy will never stop hunting for him (out of fear that Harry could kill him in the end). It was the difference between defending oneself when attacked unexpected and going into battle with one's head held high. After harry finds all the horcruxes, he will have to kill Voldy.

No one else will be able to destroy Voldy, least of all Neville.

Neville is important, but his strength is no match for Voldy. Characters change in the course of 6 books. Ginny grew stronger too. That does not mean she will kill Voldy.




Edited by T. - 23 April 2006 at 4:55am
Morgoth IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 23 April 2006 at 5:04am | IP Logged
Originally posted by lunza

Originally posted by T.

Originally posted by lunza

well , i am kind of confused about Harry is a horcrux theory ...

Most of the people who believe that harry is a horcrux , feel that Harry accidently has become one when voldy went to godric's hollow to kill the potters ..
dumbly said that the soul splits whenever someone commits murder , and the way jkr has described it voldy has committed a hell lot of murders , but he hasnt gone about making horcruxes everytime he commits murders , as dumbly said he makes them for particularly "significant deaths" .. and dumbly feels that voldy wud have chosen harry as that "significant death" after which he intended to make the horcrux ... and voldy's soul again split that night when he murdered lily and james , then he did the AVk on harry but that dint work as the curse rebounded and then he lost his body and became a wandering spirit/vapour ... so i agree wid tejas when he says that vapormort couldnt have have held that wand required to perform that spell/incantation required to encase the piece of soul into an object and make it a horcrux ...also if harry was a horcrux , he would have to kill/destroy himself BEFORE destroying voldy which is logically impossibleand i say BEFORE bcuz dumbly said that the seventh piece of soul will be the last that anybody wishing to kill voldemort must attack , the piece that lives in his body
ok so now i will start CONTRADICTING myself :
the ring , which is a horcrux and which is there on the side of the hbp cover shows a crack which luks a bit like harry's scar , which makes me wonder whether it is some special "mark" of voldemort's horcruxes ... i wonder if the cup , locket etc also have that mark . dumbly said it is not advisable to make a living being a horcrux , but it is not impossible , if harry is a horcrux , it might explain why he feels such a strong
psychic connection with voldemort , bcuz he has a piece of voldy's soul inside him ....

Nice theory, but I dont think it works for all the horcruxes. For e.g. the diary did not have any significant markings on it.

Also, horcruxes do not purposefully reveal themselves, so any particular mark would identify the horcrux fairly easily. Dumbledore would not have had much trouble pointing that out to Harry - in fact, a distinctive mark would have made his search easier.

well , maybe thaz the point ...

 thaz the least jkr can do to make harry's work a bit easier ! and its not soooo distinctive that harry will jus look at the "scar mark" and go -  "Aaaahhhhh ... luk ron ! there is a crack here , wait let me try to recollect , there was a mark like that even in the diary ... oh i get it ! its a horcrux mark !" so it wont be such an early realisation ! and dumbly mite not have noticed the crack bcuz harry showed him the diary horcrux after destroying it .... no wait , i was thinking about sumthin ..

the diary wasnt exactly destroyed ... i mean .. it did not poof ! vanish in thin air ! it was still tangible when harry showed it to dumbly , so it cud have been used as a normal diary ... u know, writing on its pages ..... i am jus wondering if that applies to human horcruxes too ... i mean we are assuming that if harry is a horcrux , he will die , but he has a soul too , i mean if he is a horcrux his body is hosting two souls .....

Good point. IF he is hosting 2 souls, he needn't die. His own soul can sustain him, isnt it?

ok , now i have another wild theory , dont think i am dumb for suggesting this ... but do u think that when a person tries to make an object a horcrux ... it makes some kind of an opening for the soul to enter , hence the crack ?

LOL , there is an easy way for harry to destroy himself if he is a horcrux ...

Ok, but, I ask the same question I asked achal. What was used to seal the "crack"? LOL

all he has to do is get himself kissed by a dementor ... too bad dementors wont spare harry's soul , after all two souls in one body is a very tempting meal ....

 

Morgoth IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 23 April 2006 at 5:06am | IP Logged
phew this is one tough debate.

Finally some heated discussion is taking place in the HP section. About time too! Clap
zara29 IF-Rockerz
zara29
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Posted: 23 April 2006 at 7:27am | IP Logged
Originally posted by T.



Also, How can Voldemort (not harry the "object" or harry's scar the "object") turn against Voldemort himself? Tom Riddle in the Diary did not. how would Harry's SCAR turn against him?

but the diary was just an object & it possess Voldy's soul..& Harry is a living being...He has his own soul too...Tonguethough he is connected 2 voldy through his scar but v cant say his scar is just an object...


Originally posted by T.



No one else will be able to destroy Voldy, least of all Neville.

Neville is important, but his strength is no match for Voldy. Characters change in the course of 6 books. Ginny grew stronger too. That does not mean she will kill Voldy.

lol..Ginny killing Voldy...LOL..but bro...Neville indirectly related 2 that [fake]prophecyEmbarrassedso..He [may ] hav imp part in killing voldy



Edited by zara29 - 23 April 2006 at 7:27am
Morgoth IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 23 April 2006 at 8:13am | IP Logged
Originally posted by zara29

Originally posted by T.



Also, How can Voldemort (not harry the "object" or harry's scar the "object") turn against Voldemort himself? Tom Riddle in the Diary did not. how would Harry's SCAR turn against him?

but the diary was just an object & it possess Voldy's soul..& Harry is a living being...He has his own soul too...Tonguethough he is connected 2 voldy through his scar but v cant say his scar is just an object...

But his scar is not a living thing. It is a wound on Harry (the living thing). If the scar is possessed by Voldemort, it will not turn against Voldemort. (Confused much? LOLSee, thats why I dont think the scar is a horcrux. Its just too weird.)   


Originally posted by T.



No one else will be able to destroy Voldy, least of all Neville.

Neville is important, but his strength is no match for Voldy. Characters change in the course of 6 books. Ginny grew stronger too. That does not mean she will kill Voldy.

lol..Ginny killing Voldy...LOL..but bro...Neville indirectly related 2 that [fake]prophecyEmbarrassedso..He [may ] hav imp part in killing voldy

Bro kaun? Confused I am not a bro. Tongue

I disagree. As I had said earlier, the prophecy was only "fake" until Voldy made it come true by killing the Potters. Neither Harry nor Voldy will rest while the other survives. One of them has to kill the other. And if Evil (voldemort) triumphs over good by killing harry, then the entire "moral" of this tale is lost.

Neville was another possibility but ONLY before Voldy acted on the prophecy. He may play an important role in getting Harry to Voldy so that Harry can kill him. So, by THAT account, he may play an important part in Voldy's death. But, he will NOT directly kill Voldy.

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