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daniel_4ever IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 22 April 2006 at 3:53pm | IP Logged
god i luv it.. we are hacing so much FUN............

go on ppl debeat.. coz i have to think loads before writing LOL

achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

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Posted: 22 April 2006 at 6:37pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by T.

Originally posted by achal

Originally posted by T.


Ok, purely for argument's sake, I will go

AGAINST:

IMO, Harry will NOT die in Book 7.


2) Harry will sacrifice himself as he/his scar is a horcrux

I disagree once more. I do not believe that Harry or his scar could be a horcrux for the following reasons:

1) Horcruxes can be contained in living things, but with difficulty. Dumbledore said that it would be dangerous to place a horcrux in any living thing which could think for itself. If Harry WERE a horcrux, why would Voldy want to kill him? Would he not be able to sense that a part of his own soul resided in the boy?

Well, but it was difficult for Voldemort to make a horcruz out of Harry's scar.. Remember he lost his whole body, while creating a scar (his seventh and last horcrux).. It was difficult for him, since he was only a part of soul after he created the scar.. And, about Dumbledore making a living thing a horcrux, well we can't say that if the scar was the horcrux, Voldemort put it in/as a part of Harry in purpose. He might've thought that after killing one of the Potters, he'll create his seventh horcrux.. But, how would he know that something like love would prevent him from killing Harry, and that he would make a horcrux there and then.. He had already killed Lily and James, so he was able to make a horcrux there, and that's what happened.. Otherwise, how would u explain why Voldemort was only a part of his soul after he tried to hit Harry with the curse, and why there is a scar on Harry's forehead that connects Harry and Voldy.. If anyone can give me a valid answer to these both question, then I'll rest my case about Harry's scar being a horcrux, and Harry having to kill himself..

Dumbledore provides the answer to Harry's scar from the very beginning. A curse like Avada Kedavra leaves a mark. But, that does not mean it is a horcrux or Voldy's soul. 

A mark? We can't simply call the scar a simple mark, can we? Otherwise, it wouldn't be so sensitive.. Do a simple scar you have hurt whenever your enemy is near you? It might be there because od the spell, but we can't say it's just a simple mark.. There are some secrets behind that scar, and all I'm saying it might be one of Voldy's horcrux, otherwise it wouldn't be so sensitive..

 

Originally posted by T.


2) Horcruxes require a special charm to seal them. Going by the logic presented here, it would mean, LOVE is the charm used to seal the horcrux.

This does not make sense going by what we know of Lord Voldy. Dumbledore has pointed out on various occasions that Love is an ancient magic which Voldemort does not understand and one that he despises. He even forgot about the powerful counter charm lily's love provided harry. But, it is highly unlikely he would forget about anything pertaining to his beloved soul.

Exactly!! When Lily died, she died for Harry, and Harry was protected by her love. Voldermort didn't know that, and like I said before, when he went to kill Harry, this love shield created by Lily was able to split his soul in two, and create a horcrux.. So, this horcrux took a shape of a scar in Harry's forehead, and it was protected by Lily's love, which caused Voldemort to lose his body, and he only became a part of his own soul..

This is exactly what makes no sense whatsoever to me. Once again I repeat that Voldemort despised "Love".

Would he have not known that love could be a charm used to create a horcrux? Considering that he had already made so many of them? A wizard of Voldemort's intellect would have known this very vital thing.

I dunno about this one either.. Are you sure that love is the charm needed to seal a horcrux.. I've never heard this before.. Maybe it isn't love that is needed to seal a horcrux at all, since making a horcrux is a very evil thing, and it requires killing, and splitting of the soul....

Also, everytime he created a horcrux, did he use "Love" to seal it? Confused 

Originally posted by T.


3) Voldy's horcrux managed to corrupt a diary. How has Harry managed to escape unscathed then? How was he able to undermine the influence of Voldy's soul. Would he not be possessed by Voldemort the way Ginny was possessed by him in her first year?
Also, if Harry was Voldy's horcrux, it gave Voldy a better chance to get a body to move around in. He wouldn't need to find useless creatures such as Quirrell or depend on Wormtail to resurrect him until Harry's 4th year.

I have to disagree with you completely on this one.. Harry does know that part of Voldy's soul is within him, although he can't really point it out as being one of Voldy's horcrux.. Otherwise, how would Harry be able to sense what Voldemort is feeling, how would he be able to know when Voldy is near during his first years, would he be able to see all those visions during his fifth year? Remember during one of the visions, he was in shape of a snake, well that was Nagini, and since Nagini is Voldemort's horcrux too, they sort of have a connection, like Harry has a connection with Voldemort.. Also remember that he can also speak parseltongue, because of the part of Voldy's soul that is within him..

About Voldy being able to possess Harry, then like I said before, he didn't even know until the fifth book.. Remember in the fifth book Dumbledore ignored Harry all the time because he was afraid that Voldemort would be able to use Harry's scar as a way to get to Dumbledore! On only the fifth book, after something that I can't remember, was Voldy able to realize that the sacr on Harry's forehead connects his world and Harry's world, he had realized that Harry was a horcrux, and was trying to take advantage of that.. If he knew Harry was a horcrux, then it would be folly to try to kill him without removing the soul! In the duel in Bk 5, he keeps trying to kill Harry without trying to remove his soul. Would he not attempt to retrieve it first and transport it to a "safer" place? But why would he want to? It would be much easier to just kill than have a horcrux as an enemy.. If he had attempted to remove his soul first, then Harry might've done something to harm Voldy before he could do anything.. He couldn't just waste his time doing that.. I know that Voldy loves him too much, but he also knows that he has many other horcruxes.. He doesn't yet know that Harry already knows about his horcruxes, so hw wouldn't think twice about destroying one od his own horcruxes that was a threat to him, just for the sake of his other souls.. Why would he waste his time thinking about a soul of his that is within his enemy? And, well, Sirius died because of this too, since he gave Harry that vision, and made him go into the Department of Mysteries or something in Ministry of Magic.. And, about his possessing Wormtail instead of Harry, well he didn't know Harry was a horcrux until the fifth book, so how could he?

Again I disagree. There is a "connection" as you said. The scar transferred some of Voldy's powers into Harry, but not his qualities. However, a SOUL has a stronger influence.

ONLY Voldy's powers? Speaking parseltongue might be one of the power, but knowing how Voldy feels at a certain time, I don't think that can only be called a power transfered when a strong spell backfired.. It is something more, something that might've been influenced by a soul you have of someone else within u.. I agree that Harry doesn't have qualities of Voldy exactly, but if only scar is the horcrux, then it should have very less influence on u, like feeling what the other person is feeling, and having wierd visions.. Things that have to do with brain, since Harry's scar is nearest to his brain.. His bravery and his positiveness is in his heart, which has very less influence by his scar..

Harry would have blacked out like Ginny (when she was possessed) and had blank spaces in his memory. But, he didn't. The two experiences simply do not add up.

Well, I dunno about this one, but I guess because it was just a scar that was a horcrux, it had a lesser influence than having your whole body possesed by someone else..

 

 

achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

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Posted: 22 April 2006 at 6:50pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by T.

Originally posted by achal

Originally posted by lunza

well , i am kind of confused about Harry is a horcrux theory ...

Most of the people who believe that harry is a horcrux , feel that Harry accidently has become one when voldy went to godric's hollow to kill the potters ..
dumbly said that the soul splits whenever someone commits murder , and the way jkr has described it voldy has committed a hell lot of murders , but he hasnt gone about making horcruxes everytime he commits murders , as dumbly said he makes them for particularly "significant deaths" .. and dumbly feels that voldy wud have chosen harry as that "significant death" after which he intended to make the horcrux ... and voldy's soul again split that night when he murdered lily and james , then he did the AVk on harry but that dint work as the curse rebounded and then he lost his body and became a wandering spirit/vapour ... so i agree wid tejas when he says that vapormort couldnt have have held that wand required to perform that spell/incantation required to encase the piece of soul into an object and make it a horcrux ...also if harry was a horcrux , he would have to kill/destroy himself BEFORE destroying voldy which is logically impossibleand i say BEFORE bcuz dumbly said that the seventh piece of soul will be the last that anybody wishing to kill voldemort must attack , the piece that lives in his body


Very valid points! I agree with you that when he commits murder, his soul split in two.. So, when he had killed James and Lily, his soul had already split in two.. So, when he when to hit Harry with that spell, it rebounded so his soul, already split in two, when into two different places, one of which became Harry's scar, and the other one remained in him, and since the speel rebounded, it hit him as well, destroying his body. So, the soul of him which was remaining didn't need a wand at all.. And, I agree if Harry was a horcrux, he'd have to kill himself before  Voldemort dies, and this is where the part of Neville comes in.. I've already said this once before in another topic, but I think then Neville will go in and kill Voldemort.. I guess we all agree that Neville will have a very important role to play at the end, and this might be it.. Otherwise, JKR would'nt give so much importance to Neville in the first place.

I doubt this will happen as the prophecy clearly states that only the one marked by the Dark Lord can kill him. But during the whole fifth and the sixth book, doesn't Dumbledore very much emphasize that everything said by the phrophecy doesn't have to come true? If Harry was the one to kill Voldy, then why would JKR emphasize this so much in the books? Neville is not marked by him in any way. Also, he has never come face to face with Voldy. It does not make sense for him to be able to kill Voldy. Ahh, but, in the fifth and the sixth book, JKR also shows Neville getting braver and braver.. Well what is the purpose of this? He was also fighting the death eaters in the sixth book, and why would Dumbledore mention him in the fifth book while talking about the phrophecy at all? Why would he mention that that is the phrophecy wasn't for Harry, then it would be meant for Neville?

Moreover, titling the books "Harry Potter" would be kind of pointless if Harry did not kill Voldy, isnt it?

I'm not saying for sure that this'll hapen, and Neville will end up killing Voldemort, but it might happen.. Harry will still be a true hero, killing himself for the sake of all witches and wizards to destroy the evil, and Neville will have some respect in his community as well, and his parents will be well-known, and of course his grandmother too.. During the whole book, JKR makes us feel sorry for Neville and his parents, well if he does end up doing this, it'll be really great for Neville and will definitely earn some respect for his parents.. It'll be a win-win since Harry will look like a true hero as well...

Originally posted by lunza


ok so now i will start CONTRADICTING myself :
the ring , which is a horcrux and which is there on the side of the hbp cover shows a crack which luks a bit like harry's scar , which makes me wonder whether it is some special "mark" of voldemort's horcruxes ... i wonder if the cup , locket etc also have that mark . dumbly said it is not advisable to make a living being a horcrux , but it is not impossible , if harry is a horcrux , it might explain why he feels such a strong
psychic connection with voldemort , bcuz he has a piece of voldy's soul inside him ....

Wow. I never notices that.. It might be.. Maybe in the dairy, and the locket, and other horcruxes, there's this same sign in the plcae where nobody can see?Confused

Again, if that were true, wouldn't Dumbledore have said something to Harry about it? I'm pretty sure that he must have thoroughly examined the diary, considering his very meticulous character. Yea, he certainly might've, but what if after the soul is removed, the mark isn't there anymore? He didn't have time to look at it before the soul was removed, and is what I said is true, then he would've no way of knowing.....

achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

Joined: 30 June 2005
Posts: 3043

Posted: 22 April 2006 at 6:54pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by daniel_4ever

god i luv it.. we are hacing so much FUN............

go on ppl debeat.. coz i have to think loads before writing LOL


Rukul, com'on!! Think fast! I need some help here!! It seems like we two are the only ones for this debate..... Us two, fourteen/thirteen year olds against Sushmi, Mystica di and Tejas bhaiyya!! We have no chance! Ouch
WinkLOLLOL
And, we sure are having  lots of fun!Tongue


Edited by achal - 22 April 2006 at 6:55pm
lunza IF-Rockerz
lunza
lunza

Joined: 15 January 2006
Posts: 9951

Posted: 22 April 2006 at 10:24pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by T.

Originally posted by lunza

well , i am kind of confused about Harry is a horcrux theory ...

Most of the people who believe that harry is a horcrux , feel that Harry accidently has become one when voldy went to godric's hollow to kill the potters ..
dumbly said that the soul splits whenever someone commits murder , and the way jkr has described it voldy has committed a hell lot of murders , but he hasnt gone about making horcruxes everytime he commits murders , as dumbly said he makes them for particularly "significant deaths" .. and dumbly feels that voldy wud have chosen harry as that "significant death" after which he intended to make the horcrux ... and voldy's soul again split that night when he murdered lily and james , then he did the AVk on harry but that dint work as the curse rebounded and then he lost his body and became a wandering spirit/vapour ... so i agree wid tejas when he says that vapormort couldnt have have held that wand required to perform that spell/incantation required to encase the piece of soul into an object and make it a horcrux ...also if harry was a horcrux , he would have to kill/destroy himself BEFORE destroying voldy which is logically impossibleand i say BEFORE bcuz dumbly said that the seventh piece of soul will be the last that anybody wishing to kill voldemort must attack , the piece that lives in his body
ok so now i will start CONTRADICTING myself :
the ring , which is a horcrux and which is there on the side of the hbp cover shows a crack which luks a bit like harry's scar , which makes me wonder whether it is some special "mark" of voldemort's horcruxes ... i wonder if the cup , locket etc also have that mark . dumbly said it is not advisable to make a living being a horcrux , but it is not impossible , if harry is a horcrux , it might explain why he feels such a strong
psychic connection with voldemort , bcuz he has a piece of voldy's soul inside him ....

Nice theory, but I dont think it works for all the horcruxes. For e.g. the diary did not have any significant markings on it.

Also, horcruxes do not purposefully reveal themselves, so any particular mark would identify the horcrux fairly easily. Dumbledore would not have had much trouble pointing that out to Harry - in fact, a distinctive mark would have made his search easier.

well , maybe thaz the point ...

 thaz the least jkr can do to make harry's work a bit easier ! and its not soooo distinctive that harry will jus look at the "scar mark" and go -  "Aaaahhhhh ... luk ron ! there is a crack here , wait let me try to recollect , there was a mark like that even in the diary ... oh i get it ! its a horcrux mark !" so it wont be such an early realisation ! and dumbly mite not have noticed the crack bcuz harry showed him the diary horcrux after destroying it .... no wait , i was thinking about sumthin ..

the diary wasnt exactly destroyed ... i mean .. it did not poof ! vanish in thin air ! it was still tangible when harry showed it to dumbly , so it cud have been used as a normal diary ... u know, writing on its pages ..... i am jus wondering if that applies to human horcruxes too ... i mean we are assuming that if harry is a horcrux , he will die , but he has a soul too , i mean if he is a horcrux his body is hosting two souls .....

ok , now i have another wild theory , dont think i am dumb for suggesting this ... but do u think that when a person tries to make an object a horcrux ... it makes some kind of an opening for the soul to enter , hence the crack ?

LOL , there is an easy way for harry to destroy himself if he is a horcrux ...

all he has to do is get himself kissed by a dementor ... too bad dementors wont spare harry's soul , after all two souls in one body is a very tempting meal ....

lunza IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 22 April 2006 at 11:19pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by achal

Originally posted by T.


Also, if Harry was Voldy's horcrux, it gave Voldy a better chance to get a body to move around in. He wouldn't need to find useless creatures such as Quirrell or depend on Wormtail to resurrect him until Harry's 4th year.

I have to disagree with you completely on this one.. Harry does know that part of Voldy's soul is within him, although he can't really point it out as being one of Voldy's horcrux.. Otherwise, how would Harry be able to sense what Voldemort is feeling, how would he be able to know when Voldy is near during his first years, would he be able to see all those visions during his fifth year? Remember during one of the visions, he was in shape of a snake, well that was Nagini, and since Nagini is Voldemort's horcrux too, they sort of have a connection, like Harry has a connection with Voldemort.. Also remember that he can also speak parseltongue, because of the part of Voldy's soul that is within him..

About Voldy being able to possess Harry, then like I said before, he didn't even know until the fifth book.. Remember in the fifth book Dumbledore ignored Harry all the time because he was afraid that Voldemort would be able to use Harry's scar as a way to get to Dumbledore! On only the fifth book, after something that I can't remember, was Voldy able to realize that the sacr on Harry's forehead connects his world and Harry's world, he had realized that Harry was a horcrux, and was trying to take advantage of that. And, well, Sirius died because of this too, since he gave Harry that vision, and made him go into the Department of Mysteries or something in Ministry of Magic.. And, about his possessing Wormtail instead of Harry, well he didn't know Harry was a horcrux until the fifth book, so how could he?
I think you are talking about the time when Mr . Weasley was attacked , thaz when he sensed the connection between him and harry ( remember? , snape tells that to harry during the first occlumency class)he just realised the connection but there was no mention of voldy realising that it is the "scar" that connects them ... 

but i DONT think voldy put two and two together at that time and concluded that harry is a horcrux at time itself .... otherwise he wouldnt have tried to kill harry at the Dept. of mysteries .... i think he mite have realised that harry is a horcrux when he tried to possess him ... the possession cant be compared to ginny's bcuz ginny said she couldnt remember a few things like , there were a few blank spaces in her memory but she dint say anything about the possession being painful , and harry found it very painful when Voldy tried to possess him , it mite be bcuz voldy tried to possess a body which already had his soul , so that wud be a total of three souls in one body , two pieces of voldy's and one harry's ... maybe there was some kind of repulsion during that possession bcuz he was trying to possess his own soul !

on the other hand( i know i keep contradicting myself but i cant help it , this whole thing is so darn complicated ... i am tring to see it from different angles .... ) , it doesnt seem so impossible that voldy tried to kill one of his own horcruxes knowing that it is one bcuz ... well , he has other horcruxes right ? and he can make more ...

lunza IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 22 April 2006 at 11:23pm | IP Logged
ok , i wud just like to add another thing , dont mean to offend anyone but this debate has turned from whether harry is going to die in the 7th book to whether harry is a horcrux or not ...

even if harry is not a horcrux , it doesnt mean that he cannot die ....
zara29 IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 23 April 2006 at 1:44am | IP Logged

Originally posted by T.


If he knew Harry was a horcrux, then it would be folly to try to kill him without removing the soul! In the duel in Bk 5, he keeps trying to kill Harry without trying to remove his soul. Would he not attempt to retrieve it first and transport it to a "safer" place?

Originally posted by achal

 But why would he want to? It would be much easier to just kill than have a horcrux as an enemy.. If he had attempted to remove his soul first, then Harry might've done something to harm Voldy before he could do anything.. He couldn't just waste his time doing that.. I know that Voldy loves him too much, but he also knows that he has many other horcruxes.. He doesn't yet know that Harry already knows about his horcruxes, so hw wouldn't think twice about destroying one od his own horcruxes that was a threat to him, just for the sake of his other souls.. Why would he waste his time thinking about a soul of his that is within his enemy?

well...I completely agree with Achal that [as T.is saying that If he knew Harry was a horcrux, then it would be folly to try to kill him without removing the soul]Voldy didnt know that harry is a horcrux till book 5th...I think he still doesnt know that harry is a horcurx nor abt  harry's knowledge abt voldy's horcruxs...

Originally posted by T.

Again I disagree. There is a "connection" as you said. The scar transferred some of Voldy's powers into Harry, but not his qualities. However, a SOUL has a stronger influence.

Originally posted by achal

ONLY Voldy's powers? Speaking parseltongue might be one of the power, but knowing how Voldy feels at a certain time, I don't think that can only be called a power transfered when a strong spell backfired.. It is something more, something that might've been influenced by a soul you have of someone else within u.. I agree that Harry doesn't have qualities of Voldy exactly, but if only scar is the horcrux, then it should have very less influence on u, like feeling what the other person is feeling, and having wierd visions.. Things that have to do with brain, since Harry's scar is nearest to his brain.. His bravery and his positiveness is in his heart, which has very less influence by his scar..

here too ,I agree with achal..that bcoz of that scar given by voldy which sum of us including me think that its voldy's soul...harry does possess sum of voldy's qualities...the most imp.quality is that of speaking parseltongue....just think abt this...how is he able 2 speak parseltongue?Confused..as he has no connection [at all]with slytherins.. Its just coz of  voldy's soul...that harry possessesEmbarrassed

& the statements by achal[that I hav underlined above] r absolutely valid..I 100% agree with achal on these points tooSmile



Edited by zara29 - 23 April 2006 at 1:46am

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