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achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

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Posted: 22 April 2006 at 1:19pm | IP Logged
Nice points u have here.
Originally posted by albusdumbledore


ok so everybody for so I'm against harry dying in book 7
Harry dying in da end is no solution to the HP saga..... here are my points against Harry dying in da 7th book. I present them to you for your comments..
2. If Harry dies the whole purpose of the books is deceived. This is a childrens' book series with the primary intention to instill the principle of the Victory of Good over Evil will always prevail... for a Child to understand that the Hero of the Saga need not survive to enjoy his victory is simply impossible. For an elder guy/gurl to understand that may have been possible, not a 8 yr old kid to whom his/her mother might read HP to sleep in his bed.


It was supposed to be a children's book series, but then adults (like you Winkno offence, am just kidding ) got interested in this as well.. This encouraged JKR to write so darkly, like the fourth and the fifth book, with murders and what not.. If JKR was concerned about the eight year old child who is being read the HP books, she wouldn't write those two books in the first place, and this wouldn't be a issue right now, and we wouldn't be debating over it.. If she can write about Sirius, Dumbledore, Cedric, dying, then one more Harry dying isn't really a big issue.. The evil will be destroyed, and there will not be any more Lord Voldemort or any of his followers, and Harry dying isn't going to change all this.. And besides, I don't think a mother would be reading this book to a eight year old in the first place, especially after the whole hungama about HP being really dark and many libraries/stores banning the sale of them.. JKR now knows that this is for big girls and guys, and she'll write it for them, in their style. And they'll be able to understand how heroic the ending will be after Harry dies..

Originally posted by albusdumbledore


Harry's Scar = Hocrux is simply not possible.... I dunno from where does this spring up from every now n then....... I'll say this for da last time please pay attention   
To make a Hocrux U need to say an spell/incantation and u need to use a Wand. (Read HBP's part where Dumby n Harry are going through Slughorn's true memory.) so when LV used the AV on Harry n da spell rebounded his body was destroyed, I'm sure you'll all agree on this.
Then tell me how in da world did he perform da Incantation which requires da use of a wand when he doesn't have any hand to hold the bl**dy wand.... this is what I fail to understand... Now you may argue that he made Harry's Scar a hocrux be4 he used the AV. that then again is not possible coz we know that he got da scar becoz of the AV, not becoz of da Hocrux Incantation.


I had to think about this for some time before writing anything else, and this is what I came up with.. Hope it isn't too confusing…
Well, first of all, Voldemort was using a wand! Otherwise, he wasn't holding a gun or something, trying to kill Harry and the rest of Potters.. I understand that the the shield of love caused the spell Voldemort cast in Harry caused his body to destroy, and for him to be only a part of his soul, but tell me one thing. Where did the scar come from? And, why does it connect Harry and Voldemort? About him not having his wand, well when he cast that spell on Harry, the shield of love was so powerful that Voldemort's could got split in two, or rather like u said, his body was destroyed.. But, then since it was a very powerful spell, it was bound to hit Harry as well, and it did hit, the spell along with part of another Voldy's soul which was split in two, and those two combined took a form of a scar.. And, I have to say, that his body not only got destroyed, but maybe the spell that got dismounted of the shield, destroyed his body only partially, and split his soul in two.. And while only the soul remained as Voldemort, the part of his soul, and his destroyed body, combined with the spell, to create a scar on Harry's forehead, which was then protected by the the shield of love..

Originally posted by albusdumbledore


Now that I think you are suitably convinced (or I think that you are ) that Harry or his scar are not Hocruxes we can safely deduce that Harry need not die in order to kill voldy....


Sorry, bhaiyya, but I'm still not convinced that Harry's scar isn't a horcrux.. But if that is the case, then it might be that maybe if not Voldemort, then someone else, like one his death eaters, is one to kill Harry.. And then maybe that person who killed Harry is killed by someone else, who is in the positivie side, like Neville, since we all agree that Neville will play a very important role in the seventh book.. This way the good still wins. But this would mean that Neville steals the spotlight away from Harry and it would definitely not be a good ending if Harry is dying.. And, since I believe Harry is going to die, I'll stick with the idea that Harry's scar is a horcrux.

Originally posted by albusdumbledore


Also I think it is not necessary to kill/destroy a hocrux in order to destroy the concealed soul in it.... we can merely (maybe) remove da concealed soul n destroy it.... (as we see in the ring hocrux case, the ring is not destroyed but the soul concealed in it is by dumby) So even if Harry is a Hocrux it is not neccesarrily meant that he's got to die.... they can simply remove the concealed soul in him n destroy it....


Valid point again, but we have to remember that before this we were only dealing with non-living things that were Voldemort's horcruxes. I'm sure it'll take a lot of effort and a very powerful spell to remove a soul from a horcrux.. Remember when Dumbledore tried to remove the soul from the ring, his whole hand, on which he was wearing the ring, was destroyed. And, that was only when he was wearing the horcrux.. Now imagine what would happen if you were the horcrux, or part of you, like your scar is the horcrux, and you're trying to remove the soul from it.. It is also important that Harry's scar is on his forehead, since if they tried to remove the soul from his scar, then his brain, the most important part of the body will be destroyed.. If this is tried, then Harry's whole body could be useless, and it might be worse than dying for him, or he might die.. So, it'll be better for him to just commit suicide in this case..

Originally posted by albusdumbledore


I think I read sumwhere that JKR has told that the last chapter deals with da future of da HP Trio. wat they become / if they survive the ordeal with voldy... I think this to be a hint dat they will survive voldy n sucsessfully defeat him... also we must not forget dat Harry has the help of many people... at his beck n call not to mention the members of da Order.....


Are you sure it said the whole trio? Because JKR has also said that Harry will die in the end, although I haven't read this myself, and heard this couple of times from many people.. She might just be describing the future of Ron, Hermione, Ginny, and the rest of the people, and how they learned they live without Harry, and how there was no evil in the wizarding world for a lot of time…….

I would also like to say one more thing.. I think someone mentioned why would Voldy want to kill Harry if he knew Harry was his horcrux.. Well, he also knows that Harry will not join his side no matter what, and what good is it to have a horcrux that want to kill you? And, also remember, he still know that he has four or five horcrux remaining after killing Harry, and he can also create some more, so why have your life threathed by your own horcrux?


Edited by achal - 23 April 2006 at 8:47am

achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

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Posts: 3043

Posted: 22 April 2006 at 1:25pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by daniel_4ever

ohk.. one thing i don't understand.. fine we are having a debate but it is
 true tht harry is gonna die.. Jo said it herself and it was in news papers
 also..

  i m not telling tht they ppl going 4 AGAINST are wrong but wat i m telling is
 so true.. i mean they can't just put anything in the papers now.. can they


 OK... don't cum and hit me or get angry at me if i hurt ur feelings... PLZZZ

Originally posted by goth princess

are u sure that was true, u think jo would give away such important parts of the story away Embarrassed

Yup, although I'm for Harry dying, I don't think JKR would give such a important detail away…
achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

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Posted: 22 April 2006 at 1:28pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by hazelgirl

yes...very true Tongue Tongue i think "against" will win Tongue


I wouldn't be so sure about that.Wink
achal IF-Dazzler
achal
achal

Joined: 30 June 2005
Posts: 3043

Posted: 22 April 2006 at 2:10pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by lunza

well , i am kind of confused about Harry is a horcrux theory ...

Most of the people who believe that harry is a horcrux , feel that Harry accidently has become one when voldy went to godric's hollow to kill the potters ..
dumbly said that the soul splits whenever someone commits murder , and the way jkr has described it voldy has committed a hell lot of murders , but he hasnt gone about making horcruxes everytime he commits murders , as dumbly said he makes them for particularly "significant deaths" .. and dumbly feels that voldy wud have chosen harry as that "significant death" after which he intended to make the horcrux ... and voldy's soul again split that night when he murdered lily and james , then he did the AVk on harry but that dint work as the curse rebounded and then he lost his body and became a wandering spirit/vapour ... so i agree wid tejas when he says that vapormort couldnt have have held that wand required to perform that spell/incantation required to encase the piece of soul into an object and make it a horcrux ...also if harry was a horcrux , he would have to kill/destroy himself BEFORE destroying voldy which is logically impossibleand i say BEFORE bcuz dumbly said that the seventh piece of soul will be the last that anybody wishing to kill voldemort must attack , the piece that lives in his body


Very valid points! I agree with you that when he commits murder, his soul split in two.. So, when he had killed James and Lily, his soul had already split in two.. So, when he when to hit Harry with that spell, it rebounded so his soul, already split in two, when into two different places, one of which became Harry's scar, and the other one remained in him, and since the speel rebounded, it hit him as well, destroying his body. So, the soul of him which was remaining didn't need a wand at all.. And, I agree if Harry was a horcrux, he'd have to kill himself before  Voldemort dies, and this is where the part of Neville comes in.. I've already said this once before in another topic, but I think then Neville will go in and kill Voldemort.. I guess we all agree that Neville will have a very important role to play at the end, and this might be it.. Otherwise, JKR would'nt give so much importance to Neville in the first place.

Originally posted by lunza


ok so now i will start CONTRADICTING myself :
the ring , which is a horcrux and which is there on the side of the hbp cover shows a crack which luks a bit like harry's scar , which makes me wonder whether it is some special "mark" of voldemort's horcruxes ... i wonder if the cup , locket etc also have that mark . dumbly said it is not advisable to make a living being a horcrux , but it is not impossible , if harry is a horcrux , it might explain why he feels such a strong
psychic connection with voldemort , bcuz he has a piece of voldy's soul inside him ....

Wow. I never notices that.. It might be.. Maybe in the dairy, and the locket, and other horcruxes, there's this same sign in the plcae where nobody can see?Confused



Edited by achal - 22 April 2006 at 2:10pm
Morgoth IF-Rockerz
Morgoth
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Posted: 22 April 2006 at 2:18pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by achal

Originally posted by T.


Ok, purely for argument's sake, I will go

AGAINST:

IMO, Harry will NOT die in Book 7.


2) Harry will sacrifice himself as he/his scar is a horcrux

I disagree once more. I do not believe that Harry or his scar could be a horcrux for the following reasons:

1) Horcruxes can be contained in living things, but with difficulty. Dumbledore said that it would be dangerous to place a horcrux in any living thing which could think for itself. If Harry WERE a horcrux, why would Voldy want to kill him? Would he not be able to sense that a part of his own soul resided in the boy?

Well, but it was difficult for Voldemort to make a horcruz out of Harry's scar.. Remember he lost his whole body, while creating a scar (his seventh and last horcrux).. It was difficult for him, since he was only a part of soul after he created the scar.. And, about Dumbledore making a living thing a horcrux, well we can't say that if the scar was the horcrux, Voldemort put it in/as a part of Harry in purpose. He might've thought that after killing one of the Potters, he'll create his seventh horcrux.. But, how would he know that something like love would prevent him from killing Harry, and that he would make a horcrux there and then.. He had already killed Lily and James, so he was able to make a horcrux there, and that's what happened.. Otherwise, how would u explain why Voldemort was only a part of his soul after he tried to hit Harry with the curse, and why there is a scar on Harry's forehead that connects Harry and Voldy.. If anyone can give me a valid answer to these both question, then I'll rest my case about Harry's scar being a horcrux, and Harry having to kill himself..

Dumbledore provides the answer to Harry's scar from the very beginning. A curse like Avada Kedavra leaves a mark. But, that does not mean it is a horcrux or Voldy's soul.  

 

Originally posted by T.


2) Horcruxes require a special charm to seal them. Going by the logic presented here, it would mean, LOVE is the charm used to seal the horcrux.

This does not make sense going by what we know of Lord Voldy. Dumbledore has pointed out on various occasions that Love is an ancient magic which Voldemort does not understand and one that he despises. He even forgot about the powerful counter charm lily's love provided harry. But, it is highly unlikely he would forget about anything pertaining to his beloved soul.

Exactly!! When Lily died, she died for Harry, and Harry was protected by her love. Voldermort didn't know that, and like I said before, when he went to kill Harry, this love shield created by Lily was able to split his soul in two, and create a horcrux.. So, this horcrux took a shape of a scar in Harry's forehead, and it was protected by Lily's love, which caused Voldemort to lose his body, and he only became a part of his own soul..

This is exactly what makes no sense whatsoever to me. Once again I repeat that Voldemort despised "Love".

Would he have not known that love could be a charm used to create a horcrux? Considering that he had already made so many of them? A wizard of Voldemort's intellect would have known this very vital thing.

Also, everytime he created a horcrux, did he use "Love" to seal it? Confused 

Originally posted by T.


3) Voldy's horcrux managed to corrupt a diary. How has Harry managed to escape unscathed then? How was he able to undermine the influence of Voldy's soul. Would he not be possessed by Voldemort the way Ginny was possessed by him in her first year?
Also, if Harry was Voldy's horcrux, it gave Voldy a better chance to get a body to move around in. He wouldn't need to find useless creatures such as Quirrell or depend on Wormtail to resurrect him until Harry's 4th year.

I have to disagree with you completely on this one.. Harry does know that part of Voldy's soul is within him, although he can't really point it out as being one of Voldy's horcrux.. Otherwise, how would Harry be able to sense what Voldemort is feeling, how would he be able to know when Voldy is near during his first years, would he be able to see all those visions during his fifth year? Remember during one of the visions, he was in shape of a snake, well that was Nagini, and since Nagini is Voldemort's horcrux too, they sort of have a connection, like Harry has a connection with Voldemort.. Also remember that he can also speak parseltongue, because of the part of Voldy's soul that is within him..

About Voldy being able to possess Harry, then like I said before, he didn't even know until the fifth book.. Remember in the fifth book Dumbledore ignored Harry all the time because he was afraid that Voldemort would be able to use Harry's scar as a way to get to Dumbledore! On only the fifth book, after something that I can't remember, was Voldy able to realize that the sacr on Harry's forehead connects his world and Harry's world, he had realized that Harry was a horcrux, and was trying to take advantage of that.. If he knew Harry was a horcrux, then it would be folly to try to kill him without removing the soul! In the duel in Bk 5, he keeps trying to kill Harry without trying to remove his soul. Would he not attempt to retrieve it first and transport it to a "safer" place?  And, well, Sirius died because of this too, since he gave Harry that vision, and made him go into the Department of Mysteries or something in Ministry of Magic.. And, about his possessing Wormtail instead of Harry, well he didn't know Harry was a horcrux until the fifth book, so how could he?

Again I disagree. There is a "connection" as you said. The scar transferred some of Voldy's powers into Harry, but not his qualities. However, a SOUL has a stronger influence.

Harry would have blacked out like Ginny (when she was possessed) and had blank spaces in his memory. But, he didn't. The two experiences simply do not add up.

 

 

 

daniel_4ever IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 22 April 2006 at 2:36pm | IP Logged
see all i know is tht Jo told that she lived with Harry
Potter very long and she wants to kill him.. and anyways
she has kept then theme of her books killing coz when she
was writing harry potter her mum diesand she was influenced
by it..

so but also if harry does not die then she has to write
more and more as o wat he did after voldy ka defeat,wat
work,wat bout death eaters,ron,hermione,ron's family..

we can't expect her to write a 2000 pages book.. tht will
not be bad but still we can't expect tht now.. can we
Morgoth IF-Rockerz
Morgoth
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Posts: 6831

Posted: 22 April 2006 at 3:41pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by achal

Originally posted by lunza

well , i am kind of confused about Harry is a horcrux theory ...

Most of the people who believe that harry is a horcrux , feel that Harry accidently has become one when voldy went to godric's hollow to kill the potters ..
dumbly said that the soul splits whenever someone commits murder , and the way jkr has described it voldy has committed a hell lot of murders , but he hasnt gone about making horcruxes everytime he commits murders , as dumbly said he makes them for particularly "significant deaths" .. and dumbly feels that voldy wud have chosen harry as that "significant death" after which he intended to make the horcrux ... and voldy's soul again split that night when he murdered lily and james , then he did the AVk on harry but that dint work as the curse rebounded and then he lost his body and became a wandering spirit/vapour ... so i agree wid tejas when he says that vapormort couldnt have have held that wand required to perform that spell/incantation required to encase the piece of soul into an object and make it a horcrux ...also if harry was a horcrux , he would have to kill/destroy himself BEFORE destroying voldy which is logically impossibleand i say BEFORE bcuz dumbly said that the seventh piece of soul will be the last that anybody wishing to kill voldemort must attack , the piece that lives in his body


Very valid points! I agree with you that when he commits murder, his soul split in two.. So, when he had killed James and Lily, his soul had already split in two.. So, when he when to hit Harry with that spell, it rebounded so his soul, already split in two, when into two different places, one of which became Harry's scar, and the other one remained in him, and since the speel rebounded, it hit him as well, destroying his body. So, the soul of him which was remaining didn't need a wand at all.. And, I agree if Harry was a horcrux, he'd have to kill himself before  Voldemort dies, and this is where the part of Neville comes in.. I've already said this once before in another topic, but I think then Neville will go in and kill Voldemort.. I guess we all agree that Neville will have a very important role to play at the end, and this might be it.. Otherwise, JKR would'nt give so much importance to Neville in the first place.

I doubt this will happen as the prophecy clearly states that only the one marked by the Dark Lord can kill him. Neville is not marked by him in any way. Also, he has never come face to face with Voldy. It does not make sense for him to be able to kill Voldy.

Moreover, titling the books "Harry Potter" would be kind of pointless if Harry did not kill Voldy, isnt it?

Originally posted by lunza


ok so now i will start CONTRADICTING myself :
the ring , which is a horcrux and which is there on the side of the hbp cover shows a crack which luks a bit like harry's scar , which makes me wonder whether it is some special "mark" of voldemort's horcruxes ... i wonder if the cup , locket etc also have that mark . dumbly said it is not advisable to make a living being a horcrux , but it is not impossible , if harry is a horcrux , it might explain why he feels such a strong
psychic connection with voldemort , bcuz he has a piece of voldy's soul inside him ....

Wow. I never notices that.. It might be.. Maybe in the dairy, and the locket, and other horcruxes, there's this same sign in the plcae where nobody can see?Confused

Again, if that were true, wouldn't Dumbledore have said something to Harry about it? I'm pretty sure that he must have thoroughly examined the diary, considering his very meticulous character.

Morgoth IF-Rockerz
Morgoth
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Posts: 6831

Posted: 22 April 2006 at 3:45pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by daniel_4ever

see all i know is tht Jo told that she lived with Harry
Potter very long and she wants to kill him
.. and anyways
she has kept then theme of her books killing coz when she
was writing harry potter her mum diesand she was influenced
by it..

so but also if harry does not die then she has to write
more and more as o wat he did after voldy ka defeat,wat
work,wat bout death eaters,ron,hermione,ron's family..

we can't expect her to write a 2000 pages book.. tht will
not be bad but still we can't expect tht now.. can we

Where did she say that, exactly? Confused Do you have a link to that article? If so, we can end the debate right away. LOL

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