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Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Singing Superstar
Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Singing Superstar

Kahin Deep Jale Kahin Dil (Page 5)

kishore_bhakta Senior Member
kishore_bhakta
kishore_bhakta

Joined: 27 June 2005
Posts: 505

Posted: 29 March 2006 at 9:59pm | IP Logged
It's a combination of mechanical and personal creativity to compose music.

Music directors, in the golden ear of music, were more considerate of how their songs would like. This is why most music directors and lyricist would work together. This way the music director can compose a tune in such a way that the words would fit the meter correctly wihtout sounding awkward. It becomes more difficult to have a set of lyrics written for you and compose a tune out of it, as you may have to mess around with the lyricist's work to fit your standards.

Of course, the proper tala and raga is important. If a guy's heart breaks after his love leave him, you aren;t going to play a song in a happy raga like Raga Madhyamad Sarang in a drut lay kaherva tala describing the dard! Similarly, for a love song filled with action, Raga Todi with a slower jhaptal would make it hard to dance. It'd make Jumping Jack Jeetendra appear that he has 2 left feet. The raga is important. Nice to add grace notes, if needed. Remember, grace notes are like condiments. You don't need them, but if you do, use them sparingly to embellish something, not to add strange flavoring.

It's more than just words and tune, back then. You had to consult the film director on what the song demands. Raj Kapoor would personally see how the song should be composed and then would make sure it is 100% correct. Shammi Kapoor would come to the recording studios and watch Rafi-saab sing. Shammi K. would even lip synch as Rafisaab would sing.

chatbuster IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 29 March 2006 at 10:08pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by kishore_bhakta

It's a combination of mechanical and personal creativity to compose music.

Music directors, in the golden ear of music, were more considerate of how their songs would like. This is why most music directors and lyricist would work together. This way the music director can compose a tune in such a way that the words would fit the meter correctly wihtout sounding awkward. It becomes more difficult to have a set of lyrics written for you and compose a tune out of it, as you may have to mess around with the lyricist's work to fit your standards.

Of course, the proper tala and raga is important. If a guy's heart breaks after his love leave him, you aren;t going to play a song in a happy raga like Raga Madhyamad Sarang in a drut lay kaherva tala describing the dard! Similarly, for a love song filled with action, Raga Todi with a slower jhaptal would make it hard to dance. It'd make Jumping Jack Jeetendra appear that he has 2 left feet. The raga is important. Nice to add grace notes, if needed. Remember, grace notes are like condiments. You don't need them, but if you do, use them sparingly to embellish something, not to add strange flavoring.

It's more than just words and tune, back then. You had to consult the film director on what the song demands. Raj Kapoor would personally see how the song should be composed and then would make sure it is 100% correct. Shammi Kapoor would come to the recording studios and watch Rafi-saab sing. Shammi K. would even lip synch as Rafisaab would sing.

thanks!!! i feel the combination you spoke of is true even in other fields eg. story-writing. but for some reason, i would have thought that it would be easier to start with a tune someone came up with and then try to come up with lyrics, then go back and re-adjust the tune, so on in a cyclical feedback manner. but the tune would start the process. but i suppose it could happen anyway. somewhere i have an impression of folks also first writing the lyrics, then putting the tune around it.  i really do not know. but am always amazed by the creative process and how people can come up with tunes which leave an impact for generations. thanks again!

 

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Posted: 29 March 2006 at 10:19pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by adwarakanath

SD would always have the tune first, and then get Shailendra to write the lyrics. Madan sahab was the other way around...most of the times, Raja MAK or Rajinder Kishen would write the lyrics and then madan sahab would compose.

But then, it was an all-in-one process. Lyricists at that time were poets who also knew music. The director would give the situation and the lyricist would have something in his mind. Also, most MDs had a tuning with specific lyricist according to their style of composition.

Naushad - Shakeel Badayuni
ROshan - Sahir
SD - Sahir, Shailendra
S-J - Shaildenra and Hasrat Jaipuri
L-P - Majrooh Sultanpuri
K-A - Indeevar, Anand Bakshi etc
RD - Rajinder Kishen, Anand Bakshi, Gulzar
Madan Mohan - Rajinder Kishen, Raja Mehdi Ali Khan
C.Ramachandra - Sahir, Pradeep
and so on.

great info!!! Thanks Abhie.

kishore_bhakta Senior Member
kishore_bhakta
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Posts: 505

Posted: 30 March 2006 at 5:44am | IP Logged

Originally posted by adwarakanath

SD would always have the tune first, and then get Shailendra to write the lyrics. Madan sahab was the other way around...most of the times, Raja MAK or Rajinder Kishen would write the lyrics and then madan sahab would compose.

But then, it was an all-in-one process. Lyricists at that time were poets who also knew music. The director would give the situation and the lyricist would have something in his mind. Also, most MDs had a tuning with specific lyricist according to their style of composition.

Naushad - Shakeel Badayuni
ROshan - Sahir
SD - Sahir, Shailendra
S-J - Shaildenra and Hasrat Jaipuri
L-P - Majrooh Sultanpuri
K-A - Indeevar, Anand Bakshi etc
RD - Rajinder Kishen, Anand Bakshi, Gulzar
Madan Mohan - Rajinder Kishen, Raja Mehdi Ali Khan
C.Ramachandra - Sahir, Pradeep
and so on.

Thanks for the info, Abhi! You hit it right on the dot with the pairings of music director and lyricist!

*Jaya* IF-Sizzlerz
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Posts: 11781

Posted: 30 March 2006 at 6:00am | IP Logged

Originally posted by adwarakanath

Thanks!

Oh, here are two more GREAT combinations

Anu Malik - Sameer
Himesh Reshamiyya - Sameer


Best of orignally copied words and tunes Wink My dil goes 'Marjawan Mitjawan' after them...yeah, the pakistani original, not the copied Indian Wink Tongue

Seriously - the other day, they were playing 'Zehreeleen raatein' from some Emran Hasmi movie.. the one that is totally lifted from Jal's 'Juda hoke bhi'.. and guess what, they said that the composer was Pritam and lyricist was 'Dev Kohli' Wink! Logo ko sharam bhi nahi aati LOLLOLLOL

soulsoup IF-Dazzler
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Joined: 20 January 2006
Posts: 3489

Posted: 30 March 2006 at 6:30am | IP Logged
Originally posted by chatbuster

Originally posted by kishore_bhakta

It's a combination of mechanical and personal creativity to compose music.

Music directors, in the golden ear of music, were more considerate of how their songs would like. This is why most music directors and lyricist would work together. This way the music director can compose a tune in such a way that the words would fit the meter correctly wihtout sounding awkward. It becomes more difficult to have a set of lyrics written for you and compose a tune out of it, as you may have to mess around with the lyricist's work to fit your standards.

Of course, the proper tala and raga is important. If a guy's heart breaks after his love leave him, you aren;t going to play a song in a happy raga like Raga Madhyamad Sarang in a drut lay kaherva tala describing the dard! Similarly, for a love song filled with action, Raga Todi with a slower jhaptal would make it hard to dance. It'd make Jumping Jack Jeetendra appear that he has 2 left feet. The raga is important. Nice to add grace notes, if needed. Remember, grace notes are like condiments. You don't need them, but if you do, use them sparingly to embellish something, not to add strange flavoring.

It's more than just words and tune, back then. You had to consult the film director on what the song demands. Raj Kapoor would personally see how the song should be composed and then would make sure it is 100% correct. Shammi Kapoor would come to the recording studios and watch Rafi-saab sing. Shammi K. would even lip synch as Rafisaab would sing.

thanks!!! i feel the combination you spoke of is true even in other fields eg. story-writing. but for some reason, i would have thought that it would be easier to start with a tune someone came up with and then try to come up with lyrics, then go back and re-adjust the tune, so on in a cyclical feedback manner. but the tune would start the process. but i suppose it could happen anyway. somewhere i have an impression of folks also first writing the lyrics, then putting the tune around it.  i really do not know. but am always amazed by the creative process and how people can come up with tunes which leave an impact for generations. thanks again!

 



Rahul - I believe it should be simulteneous. Kishore_Bhakata - please correct me I am wrong. Let's say in an ideal situation - process should be (in filmi playback music) Storyboard -> Base Lyrics -> Composers first cut and suggestions -> revised lyrics -> revised composition....

Sorry if it sounds like a programming logic (what you can expect from a tech & no-music-sense guy Ouch) - but it sounds logical.

What's the actual flow of creation?

I mean not for Sameer/Annu Malik type - for REAL people.


soulsoup IF-Dazzler
soulsoup
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Joined: 20 January 2006
Posts: 3489

Posted: 30 March 2006 at 6:34am | IP Logged
Originally posted by adwarakanath

Thanks!

Oh, here are two more GREAT combinations

Anu Malik - Sameer
Himesh Reshamiyya - Sameer


Best of orignally copied words and tunes Wink My dil goes 'Marjawan Mitjawan' after them...yeah, the pakistani original, not the copied Indian Wink Tongue

Bhaktada, how is it that an untrained musician like OP could compose classical melodies like - preetam aan milo, man mora bawra, tu hai mera prem devta, humko tumhare ishq ne, akeli hoon main piya aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa etc?


Sameer actually got a great computer program  - you just fill in the variables (choose from a checkbox list) Options like 1. Soniya 2. Mahiya 3. Ishk 4. Mohabbat…..

Then click randomize – whoalla – the Lyrics ready.


jhsurti Groupbie
jhsurti
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Joined: 24 January 2006
Posts: 119

Posted: 30 March 2006 at 6:45am | IP Logged
Originally posted by soulsoup

Originally posted by adwarakanath

Thanks!

Oh, here are two more GREAT combinations

Anu Malik - Sameer
Himesh Reshamiyya - Sameer


Best of orignally copied words and tunes Wink My dil goes 'Marjawan Mitjawan' after them...yeah, the pakistani original, not the copied Indian Wink Tongue

Bhaktada, how is it that an untrained musician like OP could compose classical melodies like - preetam aan milo, man mora bawra, tu hai mera prem devta, humko tumhare ishq ne, akeli hoon main piya aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa etc?


Sameer actually got a great computer program  - you just fill in the variables (choose from a checkbox list) Options like 1. Soniya 2. Mahiya 3. Ishk 4. Mohabbat…..

Then click randomize – whoalla – the Lyrics ready.





LOL


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