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Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Singing Superstar
Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Singing Superstar

Kahin Deep Jale Kahin Dil (Page 4)

kishore_bhakta Senior Member
kishore_bhakta
kishore_bhakta

Joined: 27 June 2005
Posts: 505

Posted: 29 March 2006 at 9:08pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by ummm

Wow Kishoreji!! This is all excellent information! I am still reading through it all over again to understand it better!

Just curious (since I joined this section of the forum quite late, and am not very conversant with your profile) - how do you analyze these songs? Do you play them on an instrument to find out the swar, and then decipher the raag from it?

While some people can easily make out raga from just listening to a given song, I can't. I always need the song to be played on a keyboard or something to find out what the swars are and then I try to decipher the raag from it.

My humble opinion is that one should study ragas first. Once you understand the fundamental concepts of the ragas and the thaats, as well as understanding the weight of the swars, you can play anything you want on the instrument of your expertise. (This does not guarantee that you'll sound like Pt. Randhir Roy, Ud. Vilayat Khan, or Ud. Amjad Ali Khan on the esraj, sitar, and sarod respectively.)

Once you understand ragas and thaats properly, you'll be able to identify them. This is why whenever I teach harmonium, I strictly teach ragas, not songs. I usually don't like when someone acts, "teach me how to play this song or that song" because I know they'll come back asking how to play another song which is very similar raga-wise to an earlier taught song.

For instance:

O Duniya Ke Rakhawale and Jhanak Jhanak Tori Baje Payaliya (Mere Huzoor). Both songs are in Darbari Kanhada.

Of course, film songs are difficult to characterisize because there are tendencies to use grace notes. Songs "aaje re pyaar pukare (Dil Ne Phir Yaad Kiya)", "chod de saari duniya kisi ke liye (Sarasvati Chandra)", "Baiyan na dharo o balma (Dastak)", and "kisi raah mein kisi mod par (Mere Humsafar)" are all in the same raga using the following swars.

S R G m P d n S'; S' n d P m G R S.

This is Charukesi, a South Indian raga introduced to the North (some say it was credited to Ravi Shankar).

"O mere sanam (Sangam)", "kahin deep jale kahin dil (20 Saal baad)," "jhoomti chali hawa yaad (Sangeet Samrat Tansen)", and "kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya." Anyone guess? It's raga Sohini.

"aawaaz deke (Professor), dil ke jhakore men (Brahmachari), jaane kahan gaye woh din (Mera Naam Joker), kayi sadiyon se (Milap), sansaar hai ik nadiya (Raftaar), mere naina sawan bhado (Mehbooba), tu mile to poochoon (Santaan), saath kisi ke koi kab aata hai (Parmatma), and tere mere beech mein (Ek Duje Ke liye)" are all examples of Raga Sivaranjani.

I can give many more examples. But once you listen to songs of a similar raga, you will find yourself seeing that it is more important to know the raga and be able to play around with the weights of the surs than simply learning song after song.

kishore_bhakta Senior Member
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Posted: 29 March 2006 at 9:09pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by bollywood_queen

that was a brilliant analysis Clap ...i love both "kahin deep jale" and "aap ki nazron"

the song that used to spook me out the most when i was younger was "aaja re" from madhumati...i still get chills when i watch that film...the film's not even scary, but that tune constantly playing in the background gives it such a spooky feel...could u give an analysis of this song please bhaktaji?

i also agree with soulsoupji about "gumnaam hai koi"...a very spooky song Confused

I never seen the film Gumnaam. What is the movie about? All I know is that its a Manoj Kumar-Sadhana movie.

kishore_bhakta Senior Member
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Posted: 29 March 2006 at 9:26pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by adwarakanath


Thanks bhaktadaClap

Bhaktada, I heard ID's 'Kahe Ujadi Meri Neend...O Kisna'....I think it is Sohni too, and isn't Ust. BGAK's 'Prem Jogan Ban Ke' Sohni too? As far as I know, these two songs haven't used much grace notes....they've stuck closely to the original raga structure.

Isn't Kuhu Kuhu a Raag Malika? Could you please tell us the different ragas used in 'Pi Bin Soona Ri', 'Ritu Aaye Ritu Jaaye Sakhi Ri', 'Raag Malika (JJBP) and 'Kuhu Kuhu'?

I have one more question, sorryTongue

When someone does a raga vistara (in carnatic parlance), mum said that they can use any grace note in any way they want to, but it shouldn't disrupt the melody or mood of the raga, and it shouldn't rock the scale....is it true? You can use any note in raga vistara?

I think the Kisna songs were in Marwa, would I would have to hear it again. Remember that there are three ragas that uses the S r G M D N S' scale (namely Marwa, Puriya, Sohini).

As far as ragamalas are concerned, all I know is Kuhu Kuhu Bole Koyaliya. The ragas in that song are Sohini, Bahar, Jonpuri, and Yaman.

kishore_bhakta Senior Member
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Posted: 29 March 2006 at 9:28pm | IP Logged
I do not know much about Carnatic's raga vistara. But I do agree to some degree that there are ways to add grace notes without making it sound bad. Like the spare use of tivra ma in Sivaranjani, the spare use of komal dha and suddha re in Bhinna Shadja, the komal ni in Kalingada, and shuddha ni in Kafi.

But remember, they are only there for emellishment. It is like adding sugar to the already sweet drink. Add too much sugar, it'll taste like something else... or maybe just taste bad! Dead
kishore_bhakta Senior Member
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Posted: 29 March 2006 at 9:40pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by adwarakanath

Ah ok thanks!

Oh Marwa, Puriya and Sohni use the same scale....ah....then how are they different?

Marwa skips Sa.

Harmonically unstable.

Only real point of harmony is on shuddha dha and komal re. (major thirds to each other. Harmonically, not the best).

Vadi Samvadi pair is komal re, suddha dha. Will remind you of Bhupali because of the lack of Sa.

Puriya skips Sa, also.

Somewhat stable harmony, as shuddha ga and suddha ni are the harmonic pairs (fourths to each other, better than before).

Has a unique pakkad with importance on Ga and Ni, allowing more freedom of movement between those two notes without seeming "unstable" as Marwa. Will remind of Yaman.

Sohini does not skip Sa. It skips komal re, though! LOL

Only time komal re will show up is if it is at the high scale or in the avaroha (coming down)

Listen to Jhoomti Chali Hawa. The first time komal re comes in is when Mukeshji sings "hawa" right before the interlude comes in. (komal re at high octave).

In Kuhu Kuhu Bole..., the same deal. The komal re is at the high saptak. The middle komal re is found when decending only.

Strong harmonic pair (more stronger than Puriya's) of Ga and Dha.

Because of Dha and Ga's strong power in this raga, people easily get fooled thinking the Dha or Sohini is the Sa of Sivaranjani . Same deal with the shuddha Ga, assuming it to be the Pa of a so-called Sivaranjani.

Still, this is a tough raga, because you can't always skip komal re. If you do, it sounds like Hindol.

An analogy I picked up.

Sohini is a "hot gal" you meet running on the sidewalk in the morning.

Puriya is a friend.

Marwa is your annoying mother-in-law. (no offense to anyone, btw).

kishore_bhakta Senior Member
kishore_bhakta
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Joined: 27 June 2005
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Posted: 29 March 2006 at 9:44pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by adwarakanath



Ah, so there are specific grace notes for each raga? But if that grace note is part of another nearby raga, wouldn't it sound like that raga?

Each raga does not have prescribed grace notes. Pure musicians will not even consider anything with grace notes. They even laugh at the idea of people using grace notes on Bhairavi and Pilu to make it sound like some strange creation.

Consider the following:

Excess tivra ma on Sivaranjani sounds like a poor version of Madhuvanti.

Excess komal ni on Kalingada always makes you worthy of entering Basant Mukhari territory instead.

Excess shuddha ni on Kafi may forecast rains through Malhar (aka Miyan Ki Malhar).

Poor judgement on the weight of the two nis in Des can make a patriotic song sound like a bhajan in Khamaja.

In Vedic literatures, ragas are personalities. It is said that Narada Muni sang ragas incorrectly and improperly. By doing this, he disfigured them.

chatbuster IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 29 March 2006 at 9:50pm | IP Logged
kishore_bhaktaG, thanks for all the great info!!!

question i've always had- is the process of creating/ composing a new song a top-down or a bottom-up one? hope my qn is clear. am wondering if it starts with some tune someone is humming or if it's a more mechanical process.

appreciate in advance!


Edited by chatbuster - 29 March 2006 at 9:54pm
jhsurti Groupbie
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Joined: 24 January 2006
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Posted: 29 March 2006 at 9:55pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by juggyE

Any one remembers Suman Kalyanpur's "Mere mehboob na ja, aaj ki raat na ja" from Noormahal... A spooky lady waslking around all in white with a candle in her hand...


Yes. A very nice song indeed. But imagine Jagdeep as the hero!

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