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+* Pandava parivar *+ (Page 8)

Poll Question: Who is your favorite Pandava queen?

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Vibhishna

Goldie

Vibhishna

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Posted: 11 November 2011 at 11:57am | IP Logged
Actually, I meant 'Adhirath and Radha were alive' after the war. Maybe the Pandavas needed to get their permission to adopt Vrishketu. I don't know much about the family norms back then.

I thought the rakshashas could change form - they could have lived in the cities at least for a while unless there was a rule banning them from staying there. Ghatotkacha was able to enter the city and change his form to ruin the arrangements for Lakshman & Balram's daughter (in the South, her name is mentioned to be Sundari or Vatsala - not sure if there are other versions of the name). The novel 'Abhimanyu Sundari' narrates the story of how these two married each other - an entertaining and hilarious story - probably romanticised by the authors. There is an old Tamil/Telugu movie Mayabazaar which is also based on this story - a really good movie.

Any idea how Ghatotkacha married Ahilawati, a yaksha?

Before the war, a sacrifice was to be made to ensure the victory of the Pandavas for which they had to sacrifice a warrior of unmatched valour. I don't remember the story very well but Iravana was chosen. It was something like this. For this sacrifice, which was to be done on the full moon, a warrior of unmatched valour must be beheaded or something like that. This supposedly was a tradition of long ago - called a sacrifice to the battlefield - forgot the name. The story I read (not very sure of the details - its been ages since I read that but I remember the events well).

Duryodhan wanted to ensure his victory over the Pandavas and was willing to do anything for it. Shakuni suggested he approach Sahadev as a king wanting to consult an astrologer - Sahadev who is to abide by the laws of astrologers and being the greatest of his time should not refuse. It was said that an astrologer should never refuse to advise a person who seeks his services even if he was the enemy. Also, an astrologer cannot reveal certain secrets even if he was able to find them to anyone even if his life depended on it. Sahadev, who could not refuse Duryodhan's request had to give him the truth - a way he could ensure victory for the Kauravas. On the night of the new moon, a warrior of unmatched valour should be sacrificed with elaborate worships and offerings. Only 4 people were eligible to be sacrificed - Krishna, Arjuna, Shalya, Iravan. Krishna and Arjuna were ruled out for Duryodhan and he needed Shalya. The only option left was Iravan. Duryodhan managed to convince him to offer himself as a sacrifice. Krishna learned of this and warned the Pandavas that they should beat Duryodhan in this issue. According to the stories, the new moon was the next day. I don't know who convinced Iravan again but he ended up offering himself for the Pandavas now. For a new moon to occur, the Sun and the Moon should meet. Krishna summoned Suryadev and Chandradev (in some legends he started doing the rituals for the new moon day and both these devas alarmed at what Krishna was doing appeared in front of him). Since both the Sun and the Moon had appeared together, that day became the new moon day. Iravan offered himself as a sacrifice but was allowed to live for the battle. some stories say that Krishna shared his sacrifice and some say that Iravan's flesh was offered as the sacrifice to allow him to remain alive after the ritual.


I shall remove the following paragraph if it is inappropriate here: A warning needed here?

This is where the stories of Koothandavar appear - Iravan expressing his desire to be wed and spend his last night with his wife, Arjun searching far and wide for someone to be his son's bride but everyone refused to be widowed within a day and Krishna assuming a female form to become Iravan's bride and came to be called Aravaani (In Tamil, Iravan was pronounced Aravaan and hence his wife was called Aravaani.)

Duryodhan was left disappointed - I think he completed the ritual with someone else and on the wrong day as it would seem.

This story is found in the Tamil versions of the Mahabharath.

Incidentally, was Iravan accepted by his mother's family? Though he grew up in the Nagaloka, the Ashtavasus (the 8 great snakes) considered Arjun their enemy and hence cursed him. Did they accept Uloopi and Iravan?


Edited by Vibhishna - 11 November 2011 at 8:04pm

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 11 November 2011 at 12:35pm | IP Logged
LJR

On Ghatotkacha's sins, this is what Krishna told the Pandavas after Ghatotkacha was killed:
 If Karna had not slain him with his dart in great battle, I myself would have had to slay Bhima's son Ghatotkacha. From desire of benefiting you, I did not slay him before. That Rakshasa was inimical to Brahmanas and sacrifices. Because he was a destroyer of sacrifices and of a sinful soul, therefore hath he been thus slain.

The Mahabharata has it that Abhimanyu was an incarnation of Chandra.  According to some other legends, whoever was in charge of Chandra agreed to part w/ him for just 16 years, so Abhimanyu had to die then.  But that's not in the Mahabharata itself.

Vibs

Thanks for those accounts.  In the Mahabharata, Iravana was not sacrificed, but killed in battle (and there was no Barbaryk either).  Which was why I was wondering.

No, none of the paragraphs were inappropriate.  Speaking of inappropriate, Krishna could have sent his cross-dressing son Samba to spend the night w/ Iravana b4 he went off to meet the rishis Evil Smile

Vibhishna

Goldie

Vibhishna

Joined: 08 January 2009

Posts: 1945

Posted: 11 November 2011 at 6:34pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

Vibs


I didn't get what you meant by 'Iravana' being meant to be sacrificed.  Ghatotkacha was - to spend Karna's shakti*.  But Iravana was killed by another rakshasha Alamvusha, who was the brother or son of Bakasura.  This rakshasha warrior created havoc in the Pandava ranks, and only Abhimanyu repelled him once,  but everyone else, including Bhima, was unable to defeat him.  Ghatotkacha killed him in battle on day 14, while Arjun was invading Jayadrath's kamal-vyuha.

My point above - as you mentioned, that gem could be used on more than one person, and Uloopi used it for her husband.  But her son died even b4 that.  Couldn't she then have gone to Kurukshetra and revived him?  And while she was @ it, maybe revive some of the other Pandava fallen?



I thought Iravan was killed on the final day of the battle... I guess, I must read more carefully. I don't know every detail in the Mahabharath.

Also, when I read the stories about Uloopi, it was mentioned that the Ashtavasus cursed Arjuna that he be killed by his own son and Uloopi distraught ran to her father (or grandfather?) and asked his help. Since the curse could not be revoked, he gave her a way out saying she can revive him with the gem after the war.

I was thinking - may it was because she had obtained prior permission that she could revive Arjun. Perhaps she did not know who all were going to die in the war and never got permission to use the jewel for them.

.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 11 November 2011 at 11:47pm | IP Logged
Iravana was killed on day 8 of the war.  Arjun downed Bheeshma on day 10, and it was due to his using Shikandi as a sheild that angered the Vasus.  If you recall, Bheeshma was the 8th Vasu incarnated (the first 7 were the babies that Ganga drowned) so when Arjun felled him, the Vasus were angered and cursed Arjun to be killed by his own son Babruvahana.  Uloopi overheard this and decided to save him.  (This is from the ACK Uloopi)

But all this was after day 10.  Day 8, Iravana had already been killed by Alambusha.  So is the only reason that Uloopi was nowhere near, and didn't find out until later, whereas in Arjun's case, she anticipated it and was there to save him?

P.S. One thing I didn't understand in your previous post.  If Adhirath & Radha were alive, why would the Pandavas be the ones raising Vrishasena?  If he was all that was left of their children & grandchildren, one would think they'd be even more protective of him in their remaining years, just like the Pandavas (in Vyasa's Mahabharata) cherished Parikshit.


Edited by .Vrish. - 12 November 2011 at 10:55am

Vibhishna

Goldie

Vibhishna

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Posted: 12 November 2011 at 11:45pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

Iravana was killed on day 8 of the war.  Arjun downed Bheeshma on day 10, and it was due to his using Shikandi as a sheild that angered the Vasus.  If you recall, Bheeshma was the 8th Vasu incarnated (the first 7 were the babies that Ganga drowned) so when Arjun felled him, the Vasus were angered and cursed Arjun to be killed by his own son Babruvahana.  Uloopi overheard this and decided to save him.  (This is from the ACK Uloopi)

But all this was after day 10.  Day 8, Iravana had already been killed by Alambusha.  So is the only reason that Uloopi was nowhere near, and didn't find out until later, whereas in Arjun's case, she anticipated it and was there to save him?

P.S. One thing I didn't understand in your previous post.  If Adhirath & Radha were alive, why would the Pandavas be the ones raising Vrishasena?  If he was all that was left of their children & grandchildren, one would think they'd be even more protective of him in their remaining years, just like the Pandavas (in Vyasa's Mahabharata) cherished Parikshit.


What I was saying was that Uloopi knew of Arjun's fate since she was in Nagaloka when Arjun was cursed. She may not have known the fates of any others during the war except that Arjun was going to survive it and die later at the hands of Babruvahana. From what I've read, the gem can't be used without prior permission from the elders or the guardians. I don't think she had the option to use the gem as she wished.

Regarding Karna's son (Vrishketu or Vrishasena?) Adhirath was a charioteer and and naturally he would feel that if Vrish (ketu? - you had mentioned Vrishasena in the post, so got confused.)
was looked after by his royal kinsmen, it would be better for his future. Vrish may not have left them as such and probably, brought Adhirath and Radha along (maybe as his own charioteer?).

Any idea what happened to his foster uncles and cousins?


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Posted: 13 November 2011 at 2:48am | IP Logged
Vrishasena was Karna's eldest son, and one of the top warriors of the Kauravas.  On day 17, after Bhima had slain Dushashan, Vrishasena was battling Nakula and getting the better of him, when Arjun reminded Karna of how he had killed Abhimanyu behind his back, but in contrast, Arjun would kill Vrishasena right in front of Karna.  Arjun then attacked Vrishasena, cut off his arms and then his head.  That's what started that final battle b/w Arjun & Karna.

All the foster brothers that Karna had were killed by Arjun.  I'm not aware of any nephews that he had.  As I mentioned earlier, Karna had 4 sons (as per Vyasa).  The eldest - Vrishasena - was killed as described above.  The others - Chitrasena, Shrutasena and Satyasena were all killed by Nakula on day 18.  There was no mention of any other sons.

Vrishaketu is not mentioned in Vyasa's - or at least KM Ganguly's translated work - Mahabharata.  He (and Meghavarna) are only mentioned in the Jamineya version that Varaali listed.  In fact, from what Varaali wrote earlier, Karna had 7 sons.  Of these, 4 of them who were killed were accounted for in the war on days 17 & 18, Vrishaketu would make it 5, but that leaves the question of what happened to the other 2.

I think your explanation on Adiratha & Radha is probably right - either they died, so the Pandavas just adopted Vrishaketu and brought him up as one of their own, or the Pandavas persuaded Adirath & Radha to allow them to atone for killing Karna by inviting them in, caste differences notwithstanding, so that they could make amends to them by helping raise Vrishaketu.

You may be right about Uloopi.  What I think is that she needed to be prepared for someone's death for her gem's magic to work - she couldn't just revive anyone, anywhere, anytime.  The thing that strikes me as odd is that if she could overhear the conversations of the Vasus and knew about Bheeshma's death on day 10, even though she was not in Kurukshetra, wouldn't she have known about her son's death on day 8 and been in a position to resurrect him?  Especially since Arjun did not love her b4 that and only married her on her pleas, her son - and Babruvahana were everything to her.  

Of course, after Arjun was revived in battle and heard all the details about why he had to be killed and how Uloopi saved him from hell, he started loving her, and for the remainder of his life, both Uloopi and Chitrangada lived w/ him in Hastinapur.  When the Pandavas finally retired, Chitrangada returned to Babruvahana, while Uloopi entered her watery kingdom in Nagaland (it's not exactly clear whether that means that she drowned herself or simply returned to her maayka).


Edited by .Vrish. - 13 November 2011 at 6:16am

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Vibhishna

varaali

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Posted: 13 November 2011 at 11:33pm | IP Logged
Uloopi  and the mystery of Naagmani

The question raised as far as I understand is Wyy didn't Uloopi use the mani to revive Iravan?. 

She would not have, even if she knew of  Iravan's death beforehand.
Dying a warrior's death on the battlefield was something every kshatriya (and the mothers who brought them up) was prepared for. In fact, it was said (by Vyasa) that one should not grieve for those who had died on the battlefield since they were sure to attain Swarga. 

Uloopi was a brave princess who had singlehandedly  raised both Iravan and Babruvahan and she would have been proud of the way Iravan achieved veergati (is there an english equivalent?) rather than go through the hassle of bringing him back to life. (That is why I voted for her in the poll above)

Reviving Iravan with the mani (even if it had been possible) just didn't make sense. Then next, Draupadi would be requesting Uloopi to revive her five sons, then Abhimanyu would have to brought back from dead, then why not Karna-  at the end of it all, every one would have come to life and we would be back to square one- and maybe a third dice game.Wink

 No it didn't work like that. The mani was in the custody of a fierce snake (incidentally called Dritarashtra) and his sons- Dustabuddhi and Durswabhava. Babruvahan had to battle with them before acquiring the mani. Moreover the circumstances of Arjuna's death were as a influence of a curse from Ganga. As Ganga pronounced the curse on Arjuna (when Bhishma lay dying), Uloopi's father (Sesha) overheard the curse and requested some way out. GAnga then offered  that after Arjuna had been shot at by his son, and after he knew what it means to be killed by his own blood, he could be revived usng the Mani. (This is what is given in Jaimineya Mahabharata)

Vrishketu

When we encounter Vrishketu in JMB, he is an adult who is married and who has participated in the MB war. Most likely, post the War, he would have been granted kingship of Anga. So we can infer that Vrishketu doesn't need any further " raising up".

Radha and Adhirath may have lived with him in their old age (they had lost their biological sons as well),  He was with the Pandavas for two reasons-  (1) to hone his archery skills under Arjuna (Arjuna mentions with a tinge of regret that while he did not have the oppurtunity to teach Abhimanyu, he wanted to recompense by teaching Vrishketu) and 
(2) to participate in the military campaigns related to the ashwamedha yagna. 

Oh yes, the Pandavs, especially Arjuna did cherish him a lot. When Vrishketu was felled down by Babruvahan, Arjuna's sorrow is truly heart rending . But they  did not molly coddle him or dissuade him from  joining in their battles. That would have been against what kshatriyahood stood for.

So, in Kali yuga, Vibhishna is a womanLOL.  Why is it Vibhishna and not Vibhishana?



Edited by varaali - 14 November 2011 at 6:19am

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Posted: 14 November 2011 at 1:47am | IP Logged
Good explanation above.  I do disagree about one thing - even if Uloopi revived Iravana, Abhimanyu, Draupadi's sons, she would have been under no obligation to do it for the Kauravas.  Doing it for Duryodhan or Shakuni would still have been out of the question - she could have just done it for a select few Pandava sons and some younger allies, like Uttar, Sveta, Dhrishtadyumna's sons, etc, and left it @ that.

If Vrishaketu participated in the war (presumably on the Kaurava side), how did he even survive?  This one defies credulity.  He'd have been alive, and then, when Ashwatthama, Kripa & Kritavarma did their midnight massacre, how come they didn't order him to join them?  They could have, since Duryodhan had annointed Ashwatthama the commander in chief of the Pandavas.  Plus is there any account of him battling anybody?

Also, you mentioned that Karna had 7 sons, of which we know the names of 5.  What happened to the other 2?  Also, if Yudhisthir made him the ruler of Anga, then than answers your question on why he didn't put him in the line of succession.


Edited by .Vrish. - 14 November 2011 at 1:48am

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