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+* Pandava parivar *+ (Page 7)

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Page 7 of 17

varaali

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varaali

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Posted: 11 November 2011 at 12:29am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

Vaarali

Notice the difference in spelling Wink


Why the difference?

Meghavarna was the son of Ghatotghach. No, Barbareek is not mentioned in Jamineya MB. I too find that story bizzare  


Edited by varaali - 11 November 2011 at 12:31am

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.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 11 November 2011 at 1:23am | IP Logged
^^^ Sorry I misspelt your name, Varaali - just corrected it.  No, I was asking you to note how Vibs spells her name, but by mis-spelling yours, I screwed it up.  Sorry again.

Yeah, I forgot, Meghvarna was Ghatotkach's son.  So he had at least 2 sons then - Anjanparva, Meghvarna and Barbaryk.

So how did Vrishaketu end up w/ the Pandavas?  Did Adhiratha & Radha die, did they hand him over, what exactly happened?

..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 11 November 2011 at 4:58am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.


 
And honestly, from everything I've read, I don't find that story even remotely credible.  First thing - as Ghatotkacha's son, there wouldn't have been any doubts about which side he'd fight - obviously the Pandavas.  The theory that he'd switch sides every time his side got the upper hand is loopy, and besides, the war ended w/ everybody dead, just as it would have had he done this bizarre act of switching sides.  After that, the idea that Krishna would ask for his head just sounds too grizzly to me.  If Krishna had simply asked him to fight for his grandfather's side, it'd just have been fine.  And besides, who says that he couldn't have been killed?  Ashwatthama had 2 lethal weapons which he misused - the Narayanastra and the Brahmashira.  Either of them would have destroyed Barbaryk, and done its purpose & left Ashwatthama.
 
This story makes Krishna look like someone who did not want the Pandavas to win the war. Wacko
 
Yes, Barbarik's story does seem confusing, but then, he never was brought up with his cousins at Indraprastha or Dwaraka (during the Pandavas' exile). The sole purpose of his birth was to die by the hands of Krishna, because he wanted liberation from his human life and his grandmother had told him that the easiest way to attain liberation was not to meditate on God for years and years, but to die by his hand. Barbarik came up with his vow that he'd only fight for the weaker side because he had always been taught that the weak should be helped, and he took that to be literal, and Krishna knew he'd keep changing sides in the war every time someone died, and also could not take the chance of Barbarik helping the Kauravas even a bit, since he was very powerful.
 
And being immune to the astras is kind of like one of the boons Hiranyakashipa had. Since such boons had to be attended to, Lord Vishnu was forced to kill him as a half-lion half-human with his nails, so I don't think even Ashwathama's astras could have killed Barbarik when he had a boon against them.
 
As for Krishna not wanting the Pandavas to win, that's not exactly true, but Krishna wasn't just a Pandava supporter. He was a supporter of Dharma and many of the warriors fighting for the Pandavas were not exactly sinless, so all of them died too. Krishna punished both the Pandavas and Kauravas through his leela at Kurukshetra, and since Dharma was ultimately at the Pandava's side, they won, but they also suffered many terrible losses. So I think that had Krishna just been a Pandava supporter, he'd not have let anyone in the Pandav paksh die.

.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 11 November 2011 at 6:13am | IP Logged
It's true that many of the warriors on the Pandava side were not sinless, such as Drupada and Ghatotkacha, just as some in the Kaurava side too were virtuous, such as Vikarna.  However, if the adharmis were what he wanted destroyed, he could have engineered it so that the adharmi warriors on both sides - Bheeshma, Drona, Ashwatthama, Duryodhan, Dushashan, Shakuni, and on the other side, Drupada, Ghatotkacha and anyone else who wasn't virtuous would get killed.  Or at least, if he thought it was important to protect the Pandavas @ all costs, why not extend the coverage to Abhimanyu, Draupadi's sons, and a few others like Uttara's brothers?  For instance, on the 18th night, since he kept the Pandavas & Satyaki away from their camp anticipating Ashwatthama's attack, he could have asked Draupadi's sons to join them as well.

It wasn't merely adharm that Krishna wanted to destroy - he wanted to relieve Bhudevi's burden of most warriors on earth, or at least the active ones.

.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 11 November 2011 at 6:17am | IP Logged
I'm curious about another thing.  In the battle where Arjun got killed by Babruvahana, Uloopi invoked a gem that had the power to revive the dead, and resurrected Arjun using that.  But it begs the question - if she could do that for Arjun, why couldn't she do it for her son Iravana when he was killed in battle by Alambusha?

Vibhishna

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Posted: 11 November 2011 at 9:26am | IP Logged
Varaali, thanks Smile

I didn't know most of it and I haven't read the earlier scriptures.

Vrish,

I think perhaps Adirath and Radha were alive after the war (not sure, though) and this is why the had to adopt Vrishketu?

Also I don't know what happened to Karna's foster brothers and their families (if anything is mentioned) after the war.

Also, on the difference between Ramayan and Mahabharath, I agree with you. The stories of Krishna's strategies explains quite a lot. I've always felt that Krishna's speeches / explanations made a person move on. The Bhagavath Gita and the story of how he handled the situation between Yudhishtra and Arjuna when they almost killed each other are good examples.

Somewhere I read that Kunti told Bheema to leave Hadimba after a son was born - leave her in the forest to be queen of the demons or to raise her son to be the king of demons - no idea. As far as I can recall from that story - Kunit did not object to Bheema taking Hadimba as his wife as long as he left her as soon as a son was born to them. Maybe that explains why the Pandavas did not stay with her when they were in exile.

Wasn't Meghavarna Barbarik's brother? I get confused after Ghatotkacha under Bheema's line. I don't know anything about Anjanparva.

There are stories of Barbarik's bravery and accomplishments. I can't find that book. When I do, I'll post it here. I vaguely remember the story but not sure of the details.

Krishna's aim (to the best of my knowledge) wasn't just that the Pandavas should win the war but to keep them (all 5 of them) alive till the end - no matter the cost.

As for Iravana, I think he was meant to be sacrificed and with Krishna's help (?) he was allowed participate in the battle. I don't think he was meant to live. Or probably it could be used only once but that doesn't make sense as both Vrishketu and Arjun were revived using the jewel.

All this is quite confusing.


By the way, Vrish bhaiya, you let the cat out of the bag Ouch (just kidding)




Edited by Vibhishna - 11 November 2011 at 9:26am

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.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 11 November 2011 at 10:06am | IP Logged
Vibs

I suppose you meant to write 'perhaps Adirath and Radha were not alive after the war'?

In the KMG text, it said that it was Bhima himself who told Hidimba that he'd stay w/ her until she had a son, and then he would leave.  It's not Kunti who put that condition.  But yeah, the reason for that was that a Rakshashi couldn't live w/ them in Indraprastha or Hastinapur, as it would probably frighten the citizens.  But when the Pandavas were in exile, they could have lived w/ Hidimbaa, no?  As it is, Ghatotkacha and his followers often came to them to help them, particularly carry Draupadi & the Pandavas around when they were tired.  So they could as well have lived w/ them.

Another thing - Bhima left Hidimba once she had a son to take care of her.  But once Ghatotkacha was dead, after the war, shouldn't Bhima have tried making some other security arrangements for Hidimba?  Or was that up to Meghavarna?  Incidentally, KMG's Mahabharata mentions only one son of Ghatotkacha - Anjanparva.  This son was killed on night 14 by Ashwatthama, shortly b4 his father's own death @ the hands of Karna.  If Meghavarna survived, he was his brother.  As I mentioned to LJR, Barbaryk is probably fictional, for all the reasons I mentioned there, and also that none of the mainstream texts seem to mention him.

I didn't get what you meant by 'Iravana' being meant to be sacrificed.  Ghatotkacha was - to spend Karna's shakti*.  But Iravana was killed by another rakshasha Alamvusha, who was the brother or son of Bakasura.  This rakshasha warrior created havoc in the Pandava ranks, and only Abhimanyu repelled him once,  but everyone else, including Bhima, was unable to defeat him.  Ghatotkacha killed him in battle on day 14, while Arjun was invading Jayadrath's kamal-vyuha.

My point above - as you mentioned, that gem could be used on more than one person, and Uloopi used it for her husband.  But her son died even b4 that.  Couldn't she then have gone to Kurukshetra and revived him?  And while she was @ it, maybe revive some of the other Pandava fallen?

* Ashwatthama had 2 weapons as I mentioned in the last page while discussing Barbaryk.  One was the Narayan-astra, which he used on the Pandava army after his father died.  It was unmatched, and the only way to avoid its ill effects was to lay down all arms & resistance and surrender b4 it.  Krishna pointed that out to the Pandava army, and most of them were saved.  His other weapon was the infamous Brahmashira, which he used on Uttara.  As it is, Ashwatthama fought Ghatotkacha after killing Anjanparva on night 14.  Given that Ghatotkacha was unconquerable, he could have used either of these weapons - maybe the latter - to kill Ghatotkacha, and it would have worked.  I don't see why Karna had to be the one to spend his shakti.

..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 11 November 2011 at 11:53am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

It's true that many of the warriors on the Pandava side were not sinless, such as Drupada and Ghatotkacha, just as some in the Kaurava side too were virtuous, such as Vikarna.  However, if the adharmis were what he wanted destroyed, he could have engineered it so that the adharmi warriors on both sides - Bheeshma, Drona, Ashwatthama, Duryodhan, Dushashan, Shakuni, and on the other side, Drupada, Ghatotkacha and anyone else who wasn't virtuous would get killed.  Or at least, if he thought it was important to protect the Pandavas @ all costs, why not extend the coverage to Abhimanyu, Draupadi's sons, and a few others like Uttara's brothers?  For instance, on the 18th night, since he kept the Pandavas & Satyaki away from their camp anticipating Ashwatthama's attack, he could have asked Draupadi's sons to join them as well.

It wasn't merely adharm that Krishna wanted to destroy - he wanted to relieve Bhudevi's burden of most warriors on earth, or at least the active ones.
 
I heard somewhere that when Subhadra was pregnant with Abhimanyu, a rakshasa went into her womb and possessed the fetus, so when Abhimanyu was born, he was the reincarnation of that rakshasa...Krishna had him killed to have that rakshasa also killed. I don't know from which source this story is from, but I heard it from my dad.
 
As for Draupadi's sons, I don't know their story, but I guess all the warriors on both sides died for a reason...we just don't know all of them.
 
Btw, why was Ghatotkacha sinful? I thought he was one of the very few 'good' rakshasas.

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