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+* Pandava parivar *+ (Page 4)

Poll Question: Who is your favorite Pandava queen?

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Vibhishna Goldie
Vibhishna
Vibhishna

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Posted: 28 October 2011 at 1:03pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

Vibhishana,

Are you referring to the Tamil  film 'Karnan" starring Shivaji ? Though it is a great movie, I don't think was factually very accurate.


Yes, the very same. I too thought it had gaping holes in the story, though the movie itself was great.

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.Vrish.varaali

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Posted: 08 November 2011 at 11:14am | IP Logged
vanadhi

Your earlier question - I have no idea whether Krishna's descendents became extinct or not - think they did.  Same for Pandavas, Rama, and other families who lived in those times.
Originally posted by vanadhi

"The kingdom of Hastinapur could not have been rightfully Karna's.
 Karna was not a descendant  of Emperor Bharat. He was not a Kuru vanshi. 
He was born to Kunti who later entered the Kuru family".
Exactly is that the case then ,i have a doubt yar ..what rightfulness does Dhritarashtra and pandu had
because they are adopted sons of vichitravirya by royal family , were fathered by sage vyasa(who is the son Satyavati,sage Parashara).
there no direct descendend here to .where pandu had a curse that when tried to intimate with a girl he would die(thats reason behind his early death).
So all pandavas are sons five elements or demigods(darma, vayu,indra,Ashwini Kumar twins)
So here also there no direct  dna descendants kuru clan.
So including Karna all the pandavas are related to kundi and Madri itself not any male. Mahabaratha story is disgusting here too...Confused
how can we claim that vamsha clan etc upon them 
Actually, the Kuru family had several discontinuities in the lineage.  Emperor Bharata adopted a son, who succeeded him.  So by the above argument, if adopted children weren't recognized as belonging to their families, then a lot of the dynasties would simply have become illegitimate.  Even Santanu wouldn't have then been a legitimate member of the Kuru dynasty, by that logic.

And in the Ramayan, Dasharath would have been the last descendent of Ikshvaku, and Rama started a new dynasty.  But Rama always ruled as a member of the Raghukul, was himself known as Raghunath/Raghunandan/Raghuveer, even though he wasn't genetically Raghu's descendent.

The custom @ that time was that the children of any woman belonged to her husband, regardless of whether he created them in her or not.  That's how RLBS were sons of Dasharath, Dhritarashtra & Pandu were sons of Vichitravirya, and how the Pandavas were sons of Pandu.  Under those conventions, even Karna was son of Pandu, and Kunti really betrayed her husband and all her sons by not confessing to Karna's parentage in time.

Anyway, like I said in the previous post, Karna was the legitimate successor to the Kuru throne, even though Yudhisthir was probably more appropriate to rule than Karna.  Both Krishna & Kunti offered him at least the chief of the Pandavas, if he switched sides.

However, since Karna was never the ruler, I guess Vrishaketu wasn't put in the line of succession.

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varaali IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 08 November 2011 at 10:24pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.


Actually, the Kuru family had several discontinuities in the lineage.  Emperor Bharata adopted a son, who succeeded him.  So by the above argument, if adopted children weren't recognized as belonging to their families, then a lot of the dynasties would simply have become illegitimate.  Even Santanu wouldn't have then been a legitimate member of the Kuru dynasty, by that logic.

And in the Ramayan, Dasharath would have been the last descendent of Ikshvaku, and Rama started a new dynasty.  But Rama always ruled as a member of the Raghukul, was himself known as Raghunath/Raghunandan/Raghuveer, even though he wasn't genetically Raghu's descendent.

The custom @ that time was that the children of any woman belonged to her husband, regardless of whether he created them in her or not.  That's how RLBS were sons of Dasharath, Dhritarashtra & Pandu were sons of Vichitravirya, and how the Pandavas were sons of Pandu.  Under those conventions, even Karna was son of Pandu, and Kunti really betrayed her husband and all her sons by not confessing to Karna's parentage in time.

Anyway, like I said in the previous post, Karna was the legitimate successor to the Kuru throne, even though Yudhisthir was probably more appropriate to rule than Karna.  Both Krishna & Kunti offered him at least the chief of the Pandavas, if he switched sides.

However, since Karna was never the ruler, I guess Vrishaketu wasn't put in the line of succession.

To answer both Vanadhi and Vrish-

The births of  Pandu / Dritarashtra and subsequently the Pandavas were very much in conformity with the social laws prevelant at that time. Karna's birth was not. Let me elaborate.

Pandu / Dritarashtra  were concieved thru the process of Niyoga - a practice which could be resorted to when the ruler died without an heir and the dynasty was in danger of collapsing (as in the case of Vichitravirya /Chitrangada). There was no secrecy about this and the man chosen to father the future king(s) was chosen with care. The offspring of such a union was born into the gotra of the dead father (and therefore a legitimate member of the family) and the biological father would have no claim on the offspring.

Niyoga could also be resorted also when a man could not father children and he needed sons to both -continue the dynasty and - perform obsequies (as in the case of Pandu and Dasharatha). Here the husband gave his approval for his wife to beget children thru someone else and hence the children born were accepted as his own.

Karna was a kanina  son-  a son born to woman before marraige. The rules governing a kanina son  were very different. If Karna were to be considered as a Pandav, he should have been adopted by Pandu before he died.

A Kanina son could be adopted by his mother's subsequent husband, especially when the husband has no sons of is own. Thus, on knowing that Pandu will be unable to father children, Kunti could have revealed to Pandu the existence of Karna and Pandu could have adopted him as his son, thus making him the eldest Pandav. 

But even then a kanina son could only be considered a relative, not an heir.(Manava Dharmashastra)

Now Kunti chose to remain silent and after Pandu's death there was no way Karna could be considered a Pandav.  

The reason both Kunti and Karna offered Karna the throne was they were relying on Yudhishtira's innate sense of propriety. They were sure that on coming to know of an existing elder brother, Yudhishtira's sense of justice would prompt him to offer the throne to Karna. 

In fact in this whole drama, the only illegitimate offspring was the proginator of all- Veda Vyasa himself.







Edited by varaali - 08 November 2011 at 11:54pm

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varaali IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 09 November 2011 at 9:38am | IP Logged
 As quoted in Section 95 of Sambhava Parva :

And Yudhishthira begat Prativindhya; Bhima, Sutasoma; Arjuna, Srutakriti; Nakula, Satanika; and Sahadeva, Srutakarman. 

Besides these, Yudhishthira, having obtained for his wife Devika, the daughter of Govasana of the Saivya tribe, in a self-choice ceremony, begat upon her a son named Yaudheya. And Bhima also obtaining for a wife Valandhara, the daughter of the king of Kasi, offered his own prowess as dower and begat upon her a son named Sarvaga. And Arjuna also, repairing to Dwaravati, brought away by force Subhadra. the sweet-speeched sister of Vasudeva, and returned in happiness to Hastinapura. And he begat upon her a son named Abhimanyu endued with all accomplishments and dear to Vasudeva himself. And Nakula obtaining for his wife Karenumati, the princess of Chedi, begat upon her a son named Niramitra. And Sahadeva also married Vijaya, the daughter of Dyutimat, the king of Madra, obtaining her in a self-choice ceremony and begat upon her a son named Suhotra. And Bhimasena had some time before begat upon Hidimva a son named Ghatotkacha. These are the eleven sons

Jarasandha's daughter as one of the Pandava wives in mentioned in the first section of Ashramavasa Parva 

Kunti, and Draupadi, and she of the Sattwata race, possessed of great fame, and Ulupi, the daughter of the snake chief, and queen Chitrangada, and the sister of Dhrishtaketu, and the daughter of Jarasandha,--these and many other ladies, O chief of men, used to wait upon the daughter of Suvala like maids of all work.



Edited by varaali - 09 November 2011 at 9:42am

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Posted: 09 November 2011 at 10:09am | IP Logged
Vaarali

The names of Arjun's & Sahadev's sons here seem to contradict the ones given in Haranaharana parva
 And because Arjuna's son was born upon his return from exile during which he had achieved many celebrated feats, that child came to be called Srutakarman. While Nakula named his son Satanika after a royal sage of that name, in the illustrious race of Kuru. Again the son that Draupadi bore to Sahadeva was born under the constellation called Vahni-daivata (Krittika), therefore was he called after the generalissimo of the celestial host, Srutasena (Kartikeya).
The mention of Karenamati as princess of Chedi doesn't mention whether she was Sishupala's sister or daughter.  The one you wrote about Valandhara is new to me - this may have been someone different from Jalandhara, who was sister of Bhanumati.  After all, Bhanumati was the princess of Trigarta & sister of Susharma, wasn't she?  And she had a sister Jalandhara who was enamored of Bhima, but never married him.  In other words, Valandhara was the princess of Kasi, who did marry Bhima, while Jalandhara was the princess of Trigarta, who didn't.

Total #sons - make that 12.  Ghatotkacha, Prativindhya, Satsoma, Yaudheya, Sarvaga, Iravana, Abhimanyu, Shrutakarman, Satanika, Nirmitra, Shrutasena & Suhotra.  Not necessarily in chronological order, and not including Babruvahana.

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Posted: 09 November 2011 at 11:47am | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali




 I had no idea that Bhima married anyone other than Draupadi & Hidimba. 

I am fairly certain that Bhima did have a wife by the name Jalandhara (also spelt Valandhara) She was the princess of Kashi and sister to Bhanumati. I am surprised she is not mentioned in MB. IIRC, there was a serial titled 'Draupadi' (aired on Sahara One) with Mrinal Kulkarni in the lead role. Despite its many flaws, it was very good, with one of the best portrayals of Draupadi till date. Jalandhara's marriage was shown there.
 


for now, i am just going to add this, as the thread is very interesting and full of information and i donot have much to share.

I was a sucker of that soap, i remember, mrinal was very pretty and at times i thought she was even better than roopa, the casting was quite cool, this hot guy, i think indraneil played lord K and he is dusky, and  they showed some accurate stuff. there was the first time the mention of other wives of pandavas were made. but draupadi does remain the principal wife or the Queen, others were not maharani or mahadevi. they were wives and consorts but she was the one who shared the throne with them as well the vanvaas.

as for the whole mahabharat thing, according to me, it wasnt composed by one poet over year, rather different poets have contributed to it tending towards the enormous volume, they might have added in the name of vyas since he was the most famous of the lot or may be they were schools of writers who all belonged the school named vyas. Infact, i dont know if u guys refer to nrishinghaprasad bhaduris writings, those are the ones i liked to read. he has propouned this theory over and over again for both mahabharata and ramayan that nagas and vanaras were not  snakes and monkeys for example, but actually tribes of original dravidian india, aboriginal india, who used the totems of snake or monkeys and most probably emulated some of their characteristics. this might be the reason why iravan  or his progeny was not considered for the aryan kingdom hierarchy, because they themselves had their own tribes to manage and it was more of a marriage of alliance rather than coming and living together. Similarly ghatotkach, was a representative of a clan of so called rakshashas and their leaders. they were small rulers on their own and therefore didnt need to stake the claim on the throne of delhi. I dont know much about draupadi's sons, they probably were unmarried or even if they were married didnt have an issue. Avimanyu was only 16 at the time of his marriage, so it is highly unlikely that one or other of draupadi's sons were not married, but most probably they didnt leave any issues. thus the direct blood related aryan descendant that survived the war zeroed down to parikshit. can someone throw some light over the children of the kauravas? Considering how just and  dharmaparayan the pandavas were, it is not likely that they were deprived of any rights.

 also written documents of Mahabharat comes at a much later period,  earky manuscript is more shruti based, so there is a possibility that there are different versions of certain things, leading towards confusion.


Edited by Tannistha - 09 November 2011 at 11:57am

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Posted: 09 November 2011 at 12:07pm | IP Logged
Tan

The only sons of the Kauravas were Lakshman, Duryodhan/Bhanumati's son who was killed by Abhimanyu, and Dushashan's son Shrutakarna, who actually killed Abhimanyu.  No mention of who killed the latter or how he died.

I doubt that the other kauravas had any minor offspring who survived the war.  If they did, they would probably have been entrusted to Yuyutsu.  I used to be under the impression that only Parikshit survived, but if the J Mahabharata that Vaarali referred to is correct, then Meghavarna and Vrishaketu were around, and maybe even Yaudheya, Sarvaga, Nirmitra and Suhotra.

I also don't think that any of the other Pandava princes were married - particularly Draupadi's sons.  Ghatotkacha was - he had a son Anjanparva, who was killed by Ashwatthama on night 14, and according to the Jaimineya version, he had another son named Meghvarna.  If the other Pandava sons - Yaudheya, Sarvaga, Nirmitra and Suhotra were minors who didn't fight in the war, or were born after the war, then yeah, they might have had descendants, but all of whom would have simply lived on under Parikshit's reign.  I think it's safe to say that none of Draupadi's sons were married.

Vaarali

From your description above, was Dyutimat another name of Shalya?  Or was the Madra they are talking about here a different kingdom - probably the same from where Krishna got his 8th wife Lakshmanaa?


Edited by .Vrish. - 10 April 2012 at 10:10pm

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Vibhishna Goldie
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Posted: 09 November 2011 at 6:31pm | IP Logged
One doubt. Did any of the Pandavas or Kauravas have daugters? It seems odd that the whole lot of them (105 or 107?) had only sons o was it that only the sons were mentioned? 

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....Poojie....

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