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+* Pandava parivar *+

Poll Question: Who is your favorite Pandava queen?

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varaali

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Posted: 14 September 2011 at 11:55pm | IP Logged
Thanks Vrish.
 
Couple of more questions- 

1) While the battles (and deaths) of Iravan, Ghatotghach and Abhimanyu are well described, are there similar mentions  of Pandavas' other sons' battles? For e.g Was Shrutasensa as brilliant a warrior as rest of Arjuna's sons? Is there an mention of Bhima's son by Jalandhara fighting in the MB war? [ I am not counting Babruvahan here - since he didn't join the War]

Draupadi's sons were obviously alive till the last day (when none of their half- brothers were)- so does it mean they were warriors of some merit? 

2) Satyaki - at places- has been referred to as having learnt Archery from Arjuna. Do you know when and how did he learn - considering that, except for the fatal battle with Bhurishravas, he remained undefeated, even breaking Drona's bow 101 times.



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Posted: 15 September 2011 at 3:34am | IP Logged
  1. Shrutasena was Sahadev's son, not Arjun's: Arjun's son from Draupadi was Shrutakarman. Yeah, he was the most able warrior of Draupadi's 5 sons, but nowhere near Abhimanyu or Iravana. Usually, Draupadi's 5 sons fought together their battles - I didn't notice too many places where they took on warriors mano-a-mano. Most often, they fought Duryodhan's brothers, and Shakuni's army, but sometimes, they'd also take on more able warriors. I had no idea that Bhima married anyone other than Draupadi & Hidimba. Incidentally, did Nakula & Sahadev have sons from their wives from Sishupala's & Jarasandha's families? Didn't see any reference to them.
  2. The only reference I could find in MB to Satyaki (and Pradhyumna) being Arjun's disciples was an allusion to that by Vasudev. When Arjun meets him, Vasudev tells him that his favorite disciples Satyaki & Pradhyumna are no more. I checked out Adi Parva to see whether there was any direct reference to that, but there wasn't. One can only conclude that Arjun taught them during his exile, during the time he was in Dwarka.

Some of the things in MB are not explicitly mentioned.  Arjun's tutelage of Satyaki & Pradhyumna was one; Ghatotkacha's destruction of yagnas is another.  Nowhere in MB is the latter mentioned, except that Krishna mentions it after Ghatotkacha was killed by Karna.  So a lot of reading b/w lines are involved.

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Posted: 16 September 2011 at 2:49am | IP Logged
Thanks Vrish for a detailed and patient reply. 

Originally posted by _Vrish_

 Shrutasena was Sahadev's son, not Arjun's: Arjun's son from Draupadi was Shrutakarman.  Thanks for the correction 


 I had no idea that Bhima married anyone other than Draupadi & Hidimba. 

I am fairly certain that Bhima did have a wife by the name Jalandhara (also spelt Valandhara) She was the princess of Kashi and sister to Bhanumati. I am surprised she is not mentioned in MB. IIRC, there was a serial titled 'Draupadi' (aired on Sahara One) with Mrinal Kulkarni in the lead role. Despite its many flaws, it was very good, with one of the best portrayals of Draupadi till date. Jalandhara's marriage was shown there.
 
Incidentally, did Nakula & Sahadev have sons from their wives from Sishupala's & Jarasandha's families? Didn't see any reference to them.

Nakula, I know married the princess of Chedi, but where does Jarasandha come in? Shadeva's other wife was his cousin, the princess of Madra. IN fact I too am puzzled by the obvious ommission of their lineages. I will post it as a separate question.

The only reference I could find in MB to Satyaki (and Pradhyumna) being Arjun's disciples was an allusion to that by Vasudev. When Arjun meets him, Vasudev tells him that his favorite disciples Satyaki & Pradhyumna are no more. I checked out Adi Parva to see whether there was any direct reference to that, but there wasn't. One can only conclude that Arjun taught them during his exile, during the time he was in Dwarka.

Doesn't Krishna repeatedly refer to Satyaki as 'your shishya' while talking to Arjuna during the battle with Bhurisravas, urging Arjuna to intervene? Anyway this is interesting. Arjuna taught Pradyumna while Krishna taught Abhimanyu? 

Some of the things in MB are not explicitly mentioned.  Arjun's tutelage of Satyaki & Pradhyumna was one; Ghatotkacha's destruction of yagnas is another.  Nowhere in MB is the latter mentioned, except that Krishna mentions it after Ghatotkacha was killed by Karna.  So a lot of reading b/w lines are involved.


Edited by varaali - 09 November 2011 at 9:52am

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Posted: 16 September 2011 at 4:26am | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

Thanks Vrish for a detailed and patient reply.

Originally posted by _Vrish_

Shrutasena was Sahadev's son, not Arjun's: Arjun's son from Draupadi was Shrutakarman. Thanks for the correction


I had no idea that Bhima married anyone other than Draupadi & Hidimba.

I am fairly certain that Bhima did have a wife by the name Jalandhara (also spelt Valandhara) She was the princess of Kashi and sister to Bhanumati. I am surprised she is not mentioned in MB. IIRC, there was a serial titled 'Draupadi' (aired on Sahara One) with Mrinal Kulkarni in the lead role. Despite its many flaws, it was very good, with one of the best portrayals of Draupadi till date. Jalandhara's marriage was shown there.

Incidentally, did Nakula & Sahadev have sons from their wives from Sishupala's & Jarasandha's families? Didn't see any reference to them.

Nakula, I know married the princess of Chedi, but where does Jarasandha come in? Shadeva's other wife was his cousin, the princess of Madra. IN fact I too am puzzled by the obvious ommission of their lineages. I will post it as a separate question.

The only reference I could find in MB to Satyaki (and Pradhyumna) being Arjun's disciples was an allusion to that by Vasudev. When Arjun meets him, Vasudev tells him that his favorite disciples Satyaki & Pradhyumna are no more. I checked out Adi Parva to see whether there was any direct reference to that, but there wasn't. One can only conclude that Arjun taught them during his exile, during the time he was in Dwarka.

Doesn't Krishna repeatedly refer to Satyaki as 'your shishya' while talking to Arjuna during the battle with Bhurisravas, urging Arjuna to intervene? Anyway this is interesting. Arjuna taught Pradyumna while Krishna taught Abhimanyu?

Some of the things in MB are not explicitly mentioned. Arjun's tutelage of Satyaki & Pradhyumna was one; Ghatotkacha's destruction of yagnas is another. Nowhere in MB is the latter mentioned, except that Krishna mentions it after Ghatotkacha was killed by Karna. So a lot of reading b/w lines are involved.
Okay, re-reading both Sabha Parva and Vana Parva, I don't find any references of Jarasandha's daughter being Sahadeva's wife, although I do recall reading about it elsewhere.  I'll see if I find references to it.
 
Nakula's Chedi wife - was her name Nirmitra?
 
Yudhisthir had another wife named Charu - is anything known about her?  Who did Yudhisthir marry, other than Draupadi?
 
Also, Arjun, from what I could gather, had only 3 wives aside from Draupadi - Subhadra, Uloopi & Chitrangada.  Any others?
 
Also, Abhimanyu married Uttara, and according to some accounts, Balarama's daughter Vatsala, but is there any record of who the other Pandava princes married?  Ghatotkacha had a son Anjanparva (killed by Ashwatthama on night 14), so who was his wife?  Did Draupadi's sons ever get to marry anybody?  How about Iravana?  I'm guessing Babruvahana did marry and continue his own dynasty in Manipur?


Edited by _Vrish_ - 16 September 2011 at 4:28am

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Posted: 17 September 2011 at 1:05pm | IP Logged
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Originally posted by _Vrish_

 

Okay, re-reading both Sabha Parva and Vana Parva, I don't find any references of Jarasandha's daughter being Sahadeva's wife, although I do recall reading about it elsewhere.  I'll see if I find references to it.
 
Nakula's Chedi wife - was her name Nirmitra?

Nakula's son through his Chedi wife was Naramitra. The wife's name was Karenumati. Sahadeva's other wife was Vijaya and their son was Suhotra.

Yudhisthir had another wife named Charu - is anything known about her?  Who did Yudhisthir marry, other than Draupadi?
 
From what is given in SB, Yudhisthira's other wife was Pauravi and had a son Devaka  from her. In some places I have read that his second wife was Devika and his son thru her was Yaudheya.

Also, Arjun, from what I could gather, had only 3 wives aside from Draupadi - Subhadra, Uloopi & Chitrangada.  Any others?
 
Also, Abhimanyu married Uttara, and according to some accounts, Balarama's daughter Vatsala, but is there any record of who the other Pandava princes married?  Ghatotkacha had a son Anjanparva (killed by Ashwatthama on night 14), so who was his wife?  Did Draupadi's sons ever get to marry anybody?  How about Iravana?  I'm guessing Babruvahana did marry and continue his own dynasty in Manipur?

My question is why did the kingdom pass on to Parikshit  bypassing the non- Draupadi sons ? Babruvahana, being the brilliant warrior that he was, should have been the obvious choice. Granted that because of his grandfather's condition, he would not have been called a Kuru, did it work against him? 

Why were the sons from other wives not considered while handing over the throne?  What is also strange (and no information either) that in the second generation, only Abhimanyu left behind an issue. 


Edited by varaali - 17 September 2011 at 1:10pm

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No, strangely enough, Abhimanyu was born to Subhadra before Prativindya was born to Draupadi.  He was not exactly the eldest of the Pandava-putras either - Ghatotkacha was, or Iravana was, if Ghatotkacha is not counted.  Only Abhimanyu & Ghatotkacha were married: Ghatotkacha had a son Anjanparva, who was killed by Ashwatthama on day 14.  There is nothing about whether Iravana had any sons or not, or whether Draupadi had any grandchildren, or whether the Pandavas had surviving sons from their other wives (I doubt they did)
 
Babruvahana was considered a part of his maternal, not his paternal family - that was the condition under which Chitrangada's father agreed to let Arjun marry him.  Arjun of course had no problems, since Babruvahana would normally not have been in the line of succession to Yudhisthir, and chances are neither would Abhimanyu: it would probably have been Prativindya.  That didn't change as a result of the war, where Babruvahana was the only Pandava-putra surviving, since he was already the ruler of Manipur.  The fact that Babruvahana didn't take part in the war, where filial duties would normally have dictated that he fight on the Pandava side, indicated the level of independence that he had from Indraprastha.
 
Other than Babruvahana, I don't think the Pandavas had  any surviving sons after the war, and had Parikshit been killed by Ashwatthama, that would have been the end of the Pandava dynasty as well.  So there really wasn't a succession issue.  Although chances are that everybody surviving, Yudhisthir might have wanted Abhimanyu to be his yuvraj, not only due to his capabilities and due to the fact that he was older, but also b'cos that would have strengthened his alliances w/ the Vrishnis. 
 
Only problem here - assuming that all Pandava-putras had survived or there had been no war, if Yudhisthir had gone by his own eldest son, his successor would have been Prativindya, and had he gone by the eldest of his father's grandsons, it would have been either Ghatotkachacha or Iravana.  Now, Kunti did not allow Hidimbi to keep Bhima, nor did she ask her to join them & live w/ them in Indraprastha, so Ghatotkacha as the ruler of the Pandavas could probably have been safely ruled out: the people of Indraprastha/Hastinapur wouldn't have wanted a rakshasha ruler.  But even w/ that, Iravana would then have been the next in line by that line of succession, not Abhimanyu, and Kunti never forbade Uloopi from living w/ Arjun (in fact, after the Ashwamedha yagna, Uloopi and Chitrangada did live in Hastinapur w/ Arjun, and returned to their kingdoms after the Pandavas decided to retire).  So one wonders under what criteria could Yudhisthir have made Abhimanyu his yuvraj?
 
I also think a similar controversy would have surrounded Ugrasena in Dwarka - w/ Kamsa dead, who would his successor have been?  If Krishna or Balarama, why not Vasudev?  I know we discussed it several pages earlier in this thread, but had there not been a fratricide, that would have been a tough question for Ugrasena.  Chances would have been that his yuvraj would have been Vasudev, and his Balarama, followed by the latter's sons: I don't see how it could have been Krishna, Pradhyumna et al.  Of course, since @ the end of it all, since everybody was dead, Vajra remained the sole choice by default.

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Posted: 17 September 2011 at 9:23pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by _Vrish_

No, strangely enough, Abhimanyu was born to Subhadra before Prativindya was born to Draupadi.  He was not exactly the eldest of the Pandava-putras either - Ghatotkacha was, or Iravana was, if Ghatotkacha is not counted.  

Strange. Very Strange. 

It was when Yudhisthira was with Draupadi in his inner chambers that Arjun barged into the room supposedly looking for his Gandhiva- and then left on his long 'pilgrimage' His first stop was Nagaland and then Manipur from where he proceeded towards Dwaraka, leaving behind two pregnant wives. Then he married Subhadra and brought her to Indraprastha where Abhimanyu was born.Now at the time of Abhimanyu's birth, at least one year + few months would have elapsed. So Draupadi not only would have completed her time with Yudhisthira, but moved on to Bhima as well. 

So my understanding of the Second generation heirarchy is this-

1. Ghatotkacha
2.Iravan
3.Babruvahan
4.Prativindya 
5. Abhimanyu

Succession

Regarding the other non Draupadi sons of the Pandavas i.e sons of Yudhi/Nakula/Sahadeva , I doubt if all them were killed/ died  before the MB war. 

I think the most likely reason they were not even considered for succession was that these children were not reagrded Kuru Vanshis. Apart from Subhadra, no other queen was welcomed into the Pandav family and Abhimanyu was the only non- Draupadi son to be born in Indraprastha - hence he was a candidate 

Uloopi and Chtrangada joined him after the war. While Iravan was alive, I doubt if anyone even knew his existence. 

I also do not recall Yudisthira, Nakula or Sahadeva's other wives being accorded the status of Daughters-in-law of the family. Hence their children probably forewent the privilege of belonging to the Kuru Dynasty.



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Posted: 18 September 2011 at 10:40pm | IP Logged
vaarali

Thanks for filling me in.  One nitpick that I do - unlike Vyasa, I don't refer to any of the Pandavas as Kurus, even though technically they were from that dynasty.  Particularly after the war, b'cos if the Pandavas were Kurus, they would have waited for Dhritarashtra's death b4 taking over.  However, since all the Kuru elders had fought and died in the war, particularly Bheeshma, Dhritarashtra didn't have any moral rights left to remain on the throne, and abdicated, and the Pandavas took over.  I therefore refer to all of them as Pandavas, never as Kurus or Kauravas.

Yeah, logically, by the time Arjun returned, Draupadi should have given birth to Satsoma and been ready for him.  But didn't happen that way - see the cited reference below about the birth of Abhimanyu and Draupadi's sons.

I overlooked your part about Jalandhara earlier.  Now that you mention it, I recall having read about her in a book 'Who's who in Mahabharat' by one Subhas Majumdar.  As you mention, she was Bhanumati's sister, and she did have a special respect for Bhima, and whenever he visited, she'd tend to him and address him as 'Shri Vrikodhara'.  But she never actually married him, as per this account, so they didn't have any children.  If her marriage to Bhima was shown in any serial, I'd certainly be interested in whether they sourced it, or made it up - unfortunately not unthinkable for TV producers Dead

Your understanding of the second generation hierarchy is correct, except for Abhimanyu & Prativindya.  In Haranaharana Parva, it's clearly mentioned
Then Subhadra, the favourite sister of Kesava, gave birth to an illustrious son, like Puloma's daughter, (the queen of heaven) bringing forth Jayanta. And the son that Subhadra brought forth was of long arms, broad chest, and eyes as large as those of a bull. That hero and oppressor of foes came to be called Abhimanyu. And the son of Arjuna, that grinder of foes and bull among men, was called Abhimanyu because he was fearless and wrathful. And that great warrior was begotten upon the daughter of the Satwata race by Dhananjaya, like fire produced in a sacrifice from within the sami wood by the process of rubbing. Upon the birth of this child, Yudhishthira, the powerful son of Kunti, gave away unto Brahmanas ten thousand cows and coins of gold. The child from his earliest years became the favourite of Vasudeva and of his father and uncles, like the moon of all the people of the world. Upon his birth, Krishna performed the usual rites of infancy. The child began to grow up like the Moon of the bright fortnight. That grinder of foes soon became conversant with the Vedas and acquired from his father the science of weapon both celestial and human, consisting of four branches and ten divisions.

"Endued with great strength, the child also acquired the knowledge of counteracting the weapons hurled at him by others, and great lightness of hand and fleetness of motion forward and backward and transverse and wheeling. Abhimanyu became like unto his father in knowledge of the scriptures and rites of religion. And Dhananjaya, beholding his son, became filled with joy. Like Maghavat beholding Arjuna, the latter beheld his son Abhimanyu and became exceedingly happy. Abhimanyu possessed the power of slaying every foe and bore on his person every auspicious mark. He was invisible in battle and broad-shouldered as the bull. Possessing a broad face as (the hood of) the snake, he was proud like the lion. Wielding a large bow, his prowess was like that of an elephant in rut. Possessed of a face handsome as the full-moon, and of a voice deep as the sound of the drum or the clouds, he was equal unto Krishna in bravery and energy, in beauty and in features. The auspicious Panchali also, from her five husbands, obtained five sons all of whom were heroes of the foremost rank and immovable in battle like the hills. Prativindhya by Yudhishthira, Sutasoma by Vrikodara, Srutakarman by Arjuna, Satanika by Nakula, and Srutasena by Sahadeva,--these were the five heroes and great warriors that Panchali brought forth, like Aditi bringing forth the Adityas. And the Brahmanas, from their foreknowledge, said unto Yudhishthira that as the son of his would be capable of bearing like the Vindhya mountains the weapons of the foe, he should be called Prativindhya. And because the child that Draupadi bore to Bhimasena was born after Bhima had performed a thousand Soma sacrifices, he came to be called Sutasoma. And because Arjuna's son was born upon his return from exile during which he had achieved many celebrated feats, that child came to be called Srutakarman. While Nakula named his son Satanika after a royal sage of that name, in the illustrious race of Kuru. Again the son that Draupadi bore to Sahadeva was born under the constellation called Vahni-daivata (Krittika), therefore was he called after the generalissimo of the celestial host, Srutasena (Kartikeya). The sons of Draupadi were born, each at the interval of one year, and all of them became renowned and much attached to one another. And, O monarch, all their rites of infancy and childhood, such as Chudakarana and Upanayana (first shave of the head and investiture with the sacred threads) were performed by Dhaumya according to the ordinance. All of them, of excellent behavior and vows, after having studied the Vedas, acquired from Arjuna a knowledge of all the weapons, celestial and human. And, O tiger among kings, the Pandavas, having obtained sons all of whom were equal unto the children of the celestials and endued with broad chests, and all of whom became great warriors, were filled with joy.'"


I'll read up more on Vijaya and Suhotra later - don't have that book w/ me @ the moment.

On your conjecture about Kunti not welcoming the other bahus aside from Panchali & Subhadra, that's b'cos they were the only ones brought to her: Arjun didn't bring Uloopi & Chitrangada w/ him to Indraprastha.  When Nakula married Karenamati, she obviously lived in Indraprastha, b'cos when the Pandavas were in exile & Krishna, Dhrishtadyumna and others visited them, at the end, it's mentioned that Dhrishtaketu, taking his sister w/ him, left for Chedi
And consoling Yudhishthira, Krishna set out for Dwaraka on his car resplendent as the sun and unto which were yoked the horses Saivya and Sugriva. And after he of the Dasharha race had departed, Dhristadyumna, the son of Prishata, also set out for his own city, taking with him the sons of Draupadi. And the king of Chedi, Dhrishtaketu also, taking his sister with him set out for his beautiful city of Suktimati, after bidding farewell to the Pandavas. And, O Bharata, the Kaikeyas also, with the permission of Kunti's son possessed of immeasurable energy, having reverentially saluted all the Pandavas, went away.

Ignore the inaccuracies about Drishtadyumna being the son of Prishatha - he was his grandson.

So all the wives of the Pandavas, except Hidimba, were recognized as Pandavas, and so were their sons.  Even Ghatotkacha was recognized by Draupadi as a son, even though he didn't have rights to live in Indraprastha.  Iravana was introduced to the Pandavas @ the start of the war - Arjun never saw him b4.

None of the Pandava sons survived the war (Babruvahana not considered here).  If you recall, when Ashwatthama sent his Brahmashira, he aimed it @ the seed of the Pandavas.  If the Pandavas had any sons left, he'd have aimed it @ them.  I dunno why the weapon didn't go towards Babruvahana - maybe b'cos technically, he was not a Pandava?  But at any rate, had any of the Pandava sons still been alive, that weapon would have killed them.  Chances are likely that those other sons either died in battle, or were killed by Ashwatthama on the 18th night.  I too wish the circumstances under which they fought & died were given.

Note, also, that the above hierarchy is based on Pandu.  If it was based on Yudhisthir, Prativindya would have been first in line to the throne, and Yaudheya next.


Edited by _Vrish_ - 18 September 2011 at 11:22pm

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