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Mahabharata Related Discussions (Page 2)

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Nandiniraizaada

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Nandiniraizaada

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Posted: 18 October 2011 at 9:57am | IP Logged
Certain things in Mahabharat or in our lives too are destined to bbe the way they are destined to be

If life and death and its cause is written in heaven, then neither Arjun nor Shikhandi were the cause of Bhishma's death

It was just divine ruling

Again if we believe in the divine hand in every thing then neither Arjun nor Karna was the greatest wartier, they were both just puppets on the hand of destini and a part of the devise drama

Have you heard the story of Barbreek?

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_rajnish_

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_rajnish_

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Posted: 18 October 2011 at 12:16pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

Nandini,

Don't get me wrong. I am not going into the Nara-Narayana factor or Arjuna's relationship with Krishna. Krishna narrating the Bhagavat Gita  to Arjuna is in a totally different context. At a crucial juncture, when the warriors on both sides have blown their conches and the War is just seconds away, at that critical moment, Arjuna slips into his Vishada mood and throws away his Gandhiva. Obviously Krishna has to arouse him from his Vishada and begins exhorting him to do his Karma- thus begining the BG.

My question is entirely different. If Arjuna was in possession of Divya- astras or even if he was a warrior par excellence, why did he need Shikhandin's help to fell Bhishma? Why did he have to shoot the fatal arrow when Karna was busy lifting his charriot's wheel from the mud? 

In fact, despite all Krishna's qualifications about Dharma- Adharma, once the gruesome carnage started, Pandavas were equally guilty (if not more) of flouting the War rules ( the killing of Bhishma, Bhurishravas, Karna, Duryodhana Jayadrath)

P.S- I am not even remotely sympathetic towards Karna or any one else. If at all, my sympathies lie with Draupadi.


Your question is justified, but if  Arjun killing of Bhishma and Karna in this way is wrong then one would equally assume even Sri  Rama killing of Vali is wrong. Karna and bhisma both are shishyas of Parsurama, both were equally divine and both in every field were at par with arjuna. whats make the difference were sides in terms of dharma and adharma. if one gets killed in unjustified way and if this killing could bring goods to others then the killing is justified. Arjun could not have killed them in front fight war and if both of them were alive, padvas would have never won over hastinapur.  whom they were supporting, the former because of his vow and latter because of his debt in one way or other of course supporting  adharma. both supporting wrong and supporting  wrong is equal to doing wrong, other wise Anna hajare would have passed janlokpal bill as not all of politicians are corrupt.

P.S. Sorry if last sentence is out of context but it is just an example.Big smile



Edited by _rajnish_ - 18 October 2011 at 12:18pm

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.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 18 October 2011 at 11:40pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali


Blooper No 2- Returning from Gurukul? The time line has left me confused. The relative ages are well chartered out in the MB. Yudhishthira and Bhima  are older than Krishna.Arjuna probably the same age, younger by a few months and Nakula and Sahadeva a year or two younger. 

Now, K has married thrice, established a kingdom, and (had it been possible for the Sagars to show) on the verge of becoming father. Now all this while the Pandavas were in Gurukul? The usual age for leaving gurukul is 20 (initiation into Brahmacharya at 8 and 12 years of study thereafter.) 

After K killed Kamsa he was invested with the sacred thread and packed  off to Guru Sandipani's ashram where Balram and Krishna learnt everything superfast. Then came the episode of Krishna rescuing Punardutta and his subsequent battles with Jarasandha.

This would have been the time Pandavas also graduated from their Gurukul. Arjuna's victroy over Drupada would have been around the same time as Krishna's relocation to Dwaraka.

Hence this Kunti's letter is totally out of place. In fact the relative ages suggest that this would have been the time for the Lakshagraha incident to take place.



Precisely!!!  In fact, a lot of things happened b/w Krishna killing Kansa and his meeting the Pandavas.
  1. He attended his Gurukul - most likely @ the same time that the Kurus were under the tutelage of Kripacharya.  The superfast aspect is probably a Vyasa insertion - chances are he would have spent some years there w/ Balarama & Sudama
  2. He returns to Mathura and the wars w/ Jarasandha start. 17 such wars take place b4 he moves his population to Dwarka
  3. Rukmini's swayamvara
  4. Syamantaka gem incidents, which culminate in his marriages to Jambavati & Satyabhama
During the time that Krishna was busy fighting Jarasandha, the Kurus were under Dronacharya, and @ the end of it, had their war w/ Drupada in which Arjun presented him to Drona, as vaarali points out.  Rukmini's swayamvara would probably have co-incided w/ the tournament where Karna first surfaced.  Then, during the Syamantaka episodes, the Varnavarta Lakshagriha incident would have been plotted, and by the time Krishna married Satyabhama and set out for Hastinapur, the Pandavas & Kunti were already off.

Vaarali's & Vinu's observations about Krishna being younger than Yudhisthir & Bhima, and the same age as Arjun is correct.

.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 19 October 2011 at 12:11am | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

Actually I have long wondered about this. 

Was Arjuna really the greatest  warrior (in the MB War) as he is made out to be? He was good no doubt, probably better than anyone else, but does he deserve the adulation often given to him? Because-  

Shikkandin had to be brought in b/w to incapacitate Bhishma. The boon given by Shantanu protected Bhishma from death, not from get mortally wounded. Which is what happened when Arjuna attacked Bhishma,placing Shikhandin in front. If  Arjuna was really the greatest Archer as is made out to be, ,should have been able to achieve he same result even w/o Shikhandin. As such ,Arjuna could not overcome  Bhishma face to face.

While Arjuna easily defeated Karna at the time of Draupadi Swayamvar, the same could not be said during the War. On day 16, Karna ,had Arjuna at his mercy. It was just b'cos Karna felt that were he to shoot an arrow, it would not reach Arjuna before sunset, that Arjuna's life was spared. 

Even on day 17, Karna repeated cut Gandhiva's bowstring, which of course Arjuna was able to retie instantly. Point is- would Arjuna have been able to overcome Karna in a fair fight?

What happened to all the divya- astras that Arjuna collected on his trip to heaven? He used the Summohan Astra during the Matsya Yudh, but does not seem to have used any during the War itself (apart from the Brahmastra towards the very end).


Vaarali

I once was in an YouTube thread which had a similar discussion in the comments field of one of their videos.  The debate there was whether Arjun was a greater warrior than Karna.

The argument that Arjun couldn't have defeated them all doesn't sound credible - in Matsya, he defeated 7 of those leaders - Bheeshma, Drona, Kripa, Ashwathama, Karna and Duryodhan.  On day 14 of the war, he alone wiped out 8 of the Kaurava akshauni's (out of 11) in his journey to hunt down Jayadrath (granted, Bhima & Satyaki also played their roles).

Having said all that, his oft repeated boast about wiping out the Kaurava army ignored that he couldn't be in more than one place @ a time.  That is why Drona had no problem massaceing all his allies on different days - Drupada, Virata, Vrihatkshatra (of Kekaya), Satrajit, Vikra, Sankha, Kuntibhoja, Purujit, Dhrishtaketu, Sahadev (of Magadha), and just about every major Pandava ally who died b4 him.  I often think that Krishna should have had all his sons fight on the Pandava side to improve the odds for the Pandavas, otherwise it was too much of a load on Bhima, Arjun & Satyaki.

On day 16, Arjun was not defeated and spared by Karna - this was downright defamation of him by BRC, and what I hated most about that serial.  They had a brief indecisive encounter, but much of that day, Arjun was fighting a vindictive Ashwatthama, while Karna was fighting (and defeated) Nakula.  Neither did Karna defeat Bhima on day 14 - while he did recall his promise to Kunti, Bhima too recalled that he can't kill Karna since Arjun had vowed to do that.  Oh, and while we are @ it, Dushashan was killed on day 17, not 16.  On day 17, Karna did cut his bowstings a few times, but Arjun reattached it and continued - it was one really a stalemate until Karna's wheel sunk.

As for the divyastras, Arjun used most of them.  Jayadratha was killed using the Pasupatastra, while Karna was slain using the Anjalika.  Arjuna also used the other astras he had, like the Brahmastra,  to massacre Krishna's Shamshaptakas, who were fighting for Duryodhan.

Dhrishtadyumna, for all his reputation, never defeated Drona, Kripa or Ashwatthama even once.  As for the cheating, all of them were predetermined by other sinful acts of their recipients - Bheeshma for destroying Amba's life, Drona for using divine weapons against ordinary soldiers, Karna for his 2 curses, and Duryodhan for both Markandeya's curse as well as Bhima's vow.  Another totally worthless warrior was Yudhisthir - Shalya was killed in an Abhimanyu like manner by Bhima, Nakula, Sahadev & Dhristadyumna all surrounding him and destroying his weapons. It wasn't a simple spear duel b/w Yudhisthir & Shalya either.

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varaali

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varaali

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Posted: 28 October 2011 at 3:07am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

Okay, new question from me - did Drona ever teach either Bhima or Duryodhan gada-yudh, as shown in today's episode, and repeated often?

Reason I ask - reading the Mahabharat chapter about Drona tutoring the Kurus, there is no mention there of his training them about gada-yudh.  The reference to Balarama having tutored both Bhima & Duryodhan is only implicitly mentioned in Shalya Parva, but in SB, it's mentioned that Balarama trained Duryodhan after Krishna killed Satadhandva, but nowhere there is it mentioned that he taught Bhima. 


This is what I found in the Sambhava Parva:

And within a short time Yudhishthira, the son of Kunti, by his good behaviour, manners and close application to business, overshadowed the deeds of his father. And the second Pandava, Vrikodara, began to receive continued lessons from Sankarshana (Valarama) in encounters with the sword and the mace and on the chariot. And after Bhima's education was finished, he became in strength like unto Dyumatsena himself and continuing to live in harmony with his brothers, he began to exert his prowess. 

The above passage says "continued lessons" which means his initial lessons would have been from Drona




Edited by varaali - 28 October 2011 at 3:07am

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Vibhishna

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Posted: 10 November 2011 at 7:23am | IP Logged
One more thing - long back I read that Dhridrashtra married Gandhari and her 10 sisters. Any information on this? I thought it was one of the fake stories but has anyone read this before?

LeadNitrate

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Posted: 10 November 2011 at 8:15am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Vibhishna

One more thing - long back I read that Dhridrashtra married Gandhari and her 10 sisters. Any information on this? I thought it was one of the fake stories but has anyone read this before?

i only remember, gandhari had vaidhavyayoga and so her parents and shakuni got her married to a  bird, i think  vulture, just before its death it came to know about it  because it was sad that it is not leaving any descendants for gandhari. so gandhari told him about the whole thing,and so he  cursed gandhari and her family that her children will bear a mark of  gandhari's first husband. duryodhan and his brothers were all app chicken legged. when duryodhan learned the reason he imprisoned  shakuni and his brothers and i think shakuni's father too. they were grossly mistreated in prison. they all died in prison and shakuni vowed to avenge them by destroying duryodhan . that is why when he was released he always gave duryodhan all sorts of  evil advice which eventually  led to duryodhan's downfall.

PS: how did shakuni die?

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kinny_ranvir

Vibhishna

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Vibhishna

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Posted: 10 November 2011 at 8:53am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Tannistha

Originally posted by Vibhishna

One more thing - long back I read that Dhridrashtra married Gandhari and her 10 sisters. Any information on this? I thought it was one of the fake stories but has anyone read this before?

i only remember, gandhari had vaidhavyayoga and so her parents and shakuni got her married to a  bird, i think  vulture, just before its death it came to know about it  because it was sad that it is not leaving any descendants for gandhari. so gandhari told him about the whole thing,and so he  cursed gandhari and her family that her children will bear a mark of  gandhari's first husband. duryodhan and his brothers were all app chicken legged. when duryodhan learned the reason he imprisoned  shakuni and his brothers and i think shakuni's father too. they were grossly mistreated in prison. they all died in prison and shakuni vowed to avenge them by destroying duryodhan . that is why when he was released he always gave duryodhan all sorts of  evil advice which eventually  led to duryodhan's downfall.

PS: how did shakuni die?


Shakuni was killed in battle by Nakul or Sahadev, I forgot who.

I too read that Shakuni was imprisoned along with his kin and friends. I also read somewhere that all of them used to give Shakuni their share of food so that he may survive. In the end Shakuni was the only one who survived. Shakuni's dice is supposedly made of the bones of his kind and friends who died for him and that's why it never fails him.

I don't know how true it is.

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