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s**twalk: A Self Defeated Movement? (Page 4)

return_to_hades IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 20 September 2011 at 9:16pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by blue-ice

Reform the mindset of whom? a rapist?...try to be practical and think...of all the crimes...rape is the worst...a person who rapes or even thinks of raping is morally bankrupt...do you think taking out rallies is going to change their mindset?...then u must be kidding urself...laaton ke bhoot baaton se nahi maante hain...the only thing that can deter them is the worst possible punishment...a raped woman is scarred for life ,both physically and emotionally...and these rapist once they are caught need to be kept in the jail for ever...that is the solution...that is what is going to scare them ...not some s**t rally...
Yes...learning self defense will come in handy when attacked suddenly without warning...these martial arts are designed for this...


I don't think the goal is to reform a rapist or an abuser. At least thats not what I got from it.

The goal of this movement is to change social perceptions around rape and abuse. If a woman is raped, she needs an empathetic legal system who will treat her with dignity and investigate, not a system where people raise an eyebrow and question her why her skirt was too short or top too skimpy. If a woman is raped, we need a society that treats her like a victim, not as some s**t who brought it upon herself.

Most people are good. Most accept that rape is a traumatic crime. No woman, no matter what mistakes she makes deserves that punishment and that this issue should be handled with empathy. Yet somewhere in society that empathy gets lost. Instead we get women suffering silently and not reporting rape out of fear or moral censure. We get cops who make statements like don't be a s**t, rather than their oath to serve and protect. We may not be able to cure or fix rapists, but at least we can get the good people out there to speak out and protect victims rights.

I'm not sure if this movement is the right platform or if their way is practical. But I think the message is important and deserves attention.

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leeseunggiloveblue-ice.

return_to_hades IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 20 September 2011 at 9:26pm | IP Logged
Somewhat related to the topic.

I noticed growing up in India is that once a girl starts growing up her mom and older women around her will give her 'the talks'. You are getting to old to wear that outfit. Don't wear that there. Don't go in that neighborhood after eight. Watch out for that guy. Be cautious about not letting anyone take advantage of you. Women have to be careful. We all got that advice.

The thing is boys never really got 'the talks'. At least my guy friends and relatives didn't. Most picked up cues from their female friends, girls don't like that, don't stare, thats a rude comment, thats sexist. But many societies especially rural communities are segregated and men never get a chance to learn the proper way to treat women. They tend to pickup from generations of men used to a male dominated society.

It might seem silly to give 'the talks' to guys because they don't get it. But I feel that if parents of boys were involved with their son's puberty and adolescence too, we would see generations of men growing up to be better people. If we raised boys with the principles of consent, of treating women with dignity no matter what they wear and do. It will eventually pass on to other men who don't get that educated upbringing.

That is the only difference I see in the west and guys in India, Mexico or somewhere who will make lewd comments or gestures at females. It is not that men in India are of a lesser quality, they could be much better, but family or society is not very concerned with their attitudes. In countries where it is better, family and society believe that men need guidance through puberty and adolescence just as much as women do.

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leeseunggiloveblue-ice.

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Posted: 21 September 2011 at 12:22pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Somewhat related to the topic.

I noticed growing up in India is that once a girl starts growing up her mom and older women around her will give her 'the talks'. You are getting to old to wear that outfit. Don't wear that there. Don't go in that neighborhood after eight. Watch out for that guy. Be cautious about not letting anyone take advantage of you. Women have to be careful. We all got that advice.

The thing is boys never really got 'the talks'. At least my guy friends and relatives didn't. Most picked up cues from their female friends, girls don't like that, don't stare, thats a rude comment, thats sexist. But many societies especially rural communities are segregated and men never get a chance to learn the proper way to treat women. They tend to pickup from generations of men used to a male dominated society.

It might seem silly to give 'the talks' to guys because they don't get it. But I feel that if parents of boys were involved with their son's puberty and adolescence too, we would see generations of men growing up to be better people. If we raised boys with the principles of consent, of treating women with dignity no matter what they wear and do. It will eventually pass on to other men who don't get that educated upbringing.

That is the only difference I see in the west and guys in India, Mexico or somewhere who will make lewd comments or gestures at females. It is not that men in India are of a lesser quality, they could be much better, but family or society is not very concerned with their attitudes. In countries where it is better, family and society believe that men need guidance through puberty and adolescence just as much as women do.

Wow exactly thats absolutely bang on!
obviously an officer of law shouldnt callously comment that a woman looked inviting to the rapist hence she was raped.
this is what i studied in my research for the treatment of women by the hands of the patriarchy, that a poor tribal woman was raped by a ceratin scholar and then the judge says that its not a the man's fault because she simply looked inviting!Angry

if this is the state of this society,then a walk,a rally or even a revolution of reforms wouldnt change the direction of the winds!

this is the conditioning, you are absolutely right,i value your each word because it weighs precisely on my thoughts!. Just like evry female is expected to be a lady, each male has that gallant gentlemanly side to him which gets lost due to the lack of conformity in most of the societies..since they are boys they can have all the freedom in this whole wide world,irregardless of any restraints!

the only part where i disagree with you is the comparison between the east and the west,i have lived abroad and in india both for long spans, and even though the society is more flexible in the west and not that conservative, men r capable of being more refined and educated( mostly..though the education quotient is better in India)..
Be it anywhere in this world, each women from every corner of the world feels threatened in one way or the other because of the opposite sex.

ps: i apologise for the late reply Embarrassed University gahh!!LOL 
      but i love to read whatever u write..i always visit the forum and read your posts Big smile
      ok enough buttering LOLWinkTongue
blue-ice. IF-Addictz
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Posted: 21 September 2011 at 3:57pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by luv_wacko

[this is what i studied in my research for the treatment of women by the hands of the patriarchy, that a poor tribal woman was raped by a ceratin scholar and then the judge says that its not a the man's fault because she simply looked inviting!Angry

Did this really happen somewhereDeadDead
That judge needs to be hangedDeadDead

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leeseunggilove

thegameison IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 22 September 2011 at 1:57am | IP Logged
Originally posted by blue-ice

Originally posted by Savage

Originally posted by blue-ice

Originally posted by cyrax

Simple, it takes two hands to clap. the security should be more vigilant, the women should be less scantily clad. Typical case of two parties blaming each other, instead of shutting up and doing their effing role. Proof that the human race is the most egotistical thickheaded one ever. 
no one has the right to rape a woman even if she is running naked on the streets..
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
Hey, not to intrude or anything, but don't you think it has never been about rights? People have never been lawful. 'Sides, what would be the possible reasons behind anybody running naked on the streets, let alone a woman? 
Are u serious?..u didn't get that?...that was the example of an extreme scenario...My reaction was to Cyrax's comment about scantily clad women...a woman's attire should not be used as an EXCUSE for rape...no woman deserves to be raped even if she is not adequately dressed...there is simply noo excuse for rape...if u still don't get it then I am sorry...I won't be able to explain it any better...

I don't have problems with comprehension, actually. There is indeed no excuse to rape but feminism actually gets too rigid sometimes, feminists refuse to accept there could be some faulty stuff that a woman could be doing. Personally speaking, I don't believe in wearing what is going to be 'adequate' with respect to the social ambit set and everything because it is simply not about how short the dress is, it is also about ethnics, 'what women should wear'. But then again, I see no point in the kind of scanty cladding we are in discussion about when the woman knows what people she's going to come across when she steps out wearing it. 

Females make amazing use of situations, we demand being treated well equal to the man, knowing somewhere down the line that we are yet better, much better and then when preference and suitability call, we out of nowhere settle with being women. My point is, there must be and I think there are several reasons why woman would like to dress the way they do and that certainly is not a safe excuse for a man to rape her, but we must also openly speak of why she'd want to wear those clothes too. If we get critical and reproachful about men, we might as well be cautious with our own takes. 

Cyrax mentioned it takes two hands to clap but given the subjectivity of the situation, sometimes as you put it, the matter never reaches the stage of clapping. So, my call is neutral. I don't speak in the best interests of the man, given none really gained enough respect from me and women all the same, are to witty mostly to know what there best interests are. We must evaluate the functioning of both the parties and raise our voices as per the verdict. 




 
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Posted: 22 September 2011 at 2:25am | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by Savage

Originally posted by blue-ice

Originally posted by cyrax

Simple, it takes two hands to clap. the security should be more vigilant, the women should be less scantily clad. Typical case of two parties blaming each other, instead of shutting up and doing their effing role. Proof that the human race is the most egotistical thickheaded one ever. 
no one has the right to rape a woman even if she is running naked on the streets..
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


 
Hey, not to intrude or anything, but don't you think it has never been about rights? People have never been lawful. 'Sides, what would be the possible reasons behind anybody running naked on the streets, let alone a woman? 


It is just a figure of speech, a hyperbole.

 

There are two issues here. Avoiding negative attention is one thing. Any woman with good sense will advice her daughters, sisters, friends to protect herself. What is proper gets adapted to situation and culture. In the USA a girl may get more freedom in what she wears. The mom may allow a tight jean, sleeveless top or short skirt to go by. The neighborhood is safe. Her friends are good. Boys and men generally know their limitations and wont cross the line. But back in India she maybe told not to wear some things. One is culture, definitely. But there are certain areas that are not safe, some people who cannot be trusted and pockets of uneducated society where men still objectify women. In the safety of a resort beach in Mexico, women may wear their bikinis, even go topless, but when they go shopping in the streets they know that its prudent to be better clothed. That is one issue, and women need to learn, adapt and beware.

 

The second issue though is the issue of sexual assault and rape. Any society that seeks to be decent educates its men that physical relations is consent driven only, and there never ever is an exception no matter what. And consent is not something implicit hidden in clothing, it is explicit in and verbal. We want men to understand that different cultures have different understandings of modesty and a woman in a bikini or a girl in a short skirt is not asking to be raped or even touched. This issue is very serious and warrants utmost attention.

 

We simply cannot have a society where only one issue is addressed and another isn't. I don't have a problem with the notion that women should be careful. However, I do have a problem with the notion that only women should be careful and society has no obligation to educate its people and change how men perceive women. Most importantly what a girl was wearing should never be an issue in rape. If she did not give consent that's that, rape is rape and it is a crime.

 

Men are not uncontrollable wild dogs like some people paint them to be. They are completely capable of restraining themselves and doing the right thing. Many men are gentlemen and know the importance of consent. There are men who won't take advantage no matter how drunk, high or stupid a girl is being.  Of course they are human, they will involuntarily get turned on or have inappropriate thoughts cross their mind, but despite that there are several men in India, USA, Mexico, China, whatever part of the world who know what a traumatic experience assault is and how important consent is. Just like all women have the ability to be a lady, all men have the ability to be gentlemen. Society just has to step up and accept that there is an issue with male attitudes as well, that can be resolved and stop giving men the excuse of clothing in the case of rape and assault.



I see these issues in this light too, or I should say I have been catching the hang of it, lately. However, there is this thing about living among people, that social mannerism which is completely hard on me to comprehend. I have been exasperated for a couple of years, what with the hints of restrictions and humongous volleys of advises to keep myself safe. All I have extracted for now is that my clothes are not going to vouchsafe my chances of not being raped. It is as I see, too much work to visualize gentlemen or women who are morally behaved, because even with all the ridiculing stuff going to, all are socially behaved. The whole idea of society is funny, anymore than India having clean roads. 

Indian men have always done what pleases them and even in the most educated and gentle of the lot, you'd find this string of male-alpha chauvinism which seems almost inevitable to me. As for the gals my age, they are too naive to practically figure out what the spiky haired dude actually thinks of her dress, this time is when it starts, the gals simply put in too much effort to be likable when they are actually just digging themselves a pit to be propelled in and perhaps, perpetual cynicism to live with after they analyse stuff well. There are gals and women who portray what in our heads are dignified women of substance and whatever sexual assaults their business comprises will be hard to dissect and comprehend. 

Why I ignore feminism is that I don't understand how a woman'd speak very proudly of how she sustains in a male-dominated society and expect all gentleman-ish gestures all the same, meaning why'd he vacant his seat in the bus for a 'my way or the highway, strong willed woman of a male-dominated society'. I am pretty skeptical and I'd again say it is just hard to imagine existence of men without that chauvinism and women without this agitating habit of being circumstantial as they go! 

Also, I think there are more people like me who just like to mind their own businesses unless they need to speak up and stop to the best of their abilities, what must be stopped. It is like very simple, I understand what kind of people I live around and I'd rather provide myself with a society-proof life than be that likable or respectable figure of a girl. As it is, the society is where we live and it ain't just sexual crimes that ought to worry us, there is more to the society and all 'socially behaved' people should know how important it is to caution, regardless of their sexes and attitudes. 




leeseunggilove IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 22 September 2011 at 6:33am | IP Logged
Originally posted by blue-ice

Originally posted by luv_wacko

[this is what i studied in my research for the treatment of women by the hands of the patriarchy, that a poor tribal woman was raped by a ceratin scholar and then the judge says that its not a the man's fault because she simply looked inviting!Angry

Did this really happen somewhereDeadDead
That judge needs to be hangedDeadDead
yes the woman was tribal!Ouch

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blue-ice.

_Angie_ IF-Sizzlerz
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Posted: 22 September 2011 at 6:38am | IP Logged
Originally posted by luv_wacko

Originally posted by blue-ice

Originally posted by luv_wacko

[this is what i studied in my research for the treatment of women by the hands of the patriarchy, that a poor tribal woman was raped by a ceratin scholar and then the judge says that its not a the man's fault because she simply looked inviting!Angry

Did this really happen somewhereDeadDead
That judge needs to be hangedDeadDead
yes the woman was tribal!Ouch
...you may as well have said... that the man was a scholar.

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