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do u believe in theory of karma? (Page 7)

CunningLinguist IF-Sizzlerz

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CunningLinguist IF-Sizzlerz

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K.Consciousness

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return_to_hades IF-Veteran Member
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Posted: 15 September 2011 at 11:25am | IP Logged
Originally posted by CunningLinguist



Maybe the problem with this is caused by our need to have justice.  We look at the world and we come up with a system of how things ought to be, and then project our sense of justice/right/wrong onto the universe, but maybe the universe is just a brutal, ruthless, cold-hearted son of a bitch, which has no regard for our moral values and our sense of justice.  Maybe those rapists and pedophiles who get away never really do get their comeuppance, and once they die, that's it, this is very hard for us to digest cause it seems completely unfair that such moral monsters should get away their heinous crimes.

Maybe that's just how the universe is, rather than how it ought to be.

Heaven and hell is even more dodgy, in karma theory, you are rewarded/punished on the basis of your actions, in Abrahamic concepts of heaven/hell, you are rewarded/punished on the basis of belief, to even be considered for heaven, you must believe in their religion, good works alone won't get you in.

Theists argue that if there is no God, there is no objective morality, I'm not sure if there really are objective moral values or not, but grounding morality in God would cause a whole lot more problems than if we ground morality in reason/rationality/compassion etc.  Humans have a natural aversion to pain, that can be a basis to build upon.  I live by the golden rule, don't harm, do good.

I wouldn't call myself atheist either, but rather a non-theist, I don't believe in certain concepts of God, but am open to other possibilities.


I think the crux of the problem of karma and other cosmic justice theories lies in the bolded.

What is morality grounded in?

While many humans need God for morality. I think society has found that morality is evolving and subjective. We have justice systems and social structures that try to ground morality in reason/rationality/compassion.

Do we need a cosmic justice system?

If morality is grounded in God, it seems necessary. But when you ground morality in reason/rationality/compassion and basically in humanity and society, it does not appear as important. Although we can wonder should one exist and how should it be structured.

Does life have meaning without cosmic justice?

For a theist with a strong notion of God, the meaning was lost when we tried grounding morality in things other than God. Many atheists and non theists are able to find meaning.

However, this is the aspect I struggle most with. I believe in reason based morality. I live by the golden rule as well. I take actions not for karma, heaven or hell, human or cosmic justice - but because "I believe" that an action is "right" or "not so bad". But then I wonder, what meaning do an of my actions have beyond my personal moral sphere.

Social and legal justice is flawed on many accounts and if anyone is wronged or missed out by these justice systems - and there is no larger safety net, forget justice actions themselves seem to lose their meaning. Perhaps the universe does not need justice and just is, but then why do I have this innate sense of justice in me. Even if it is a human construct from generations of civilization, why did it come about, why does it sustain - why is it not something more neutral like the universe itself. Even rational morality seems to be pointless if actions are meaningless in the larger scale of things. Life appears meaningless because at the sum of it all it makes no difference. X thought it was right, and did right. Y thought it was wrong, and did wrong anyways. Hundred years from now X and Y are both dead. Neither X nor Y matter.

So then I start believing that a greater scheme of things is necessary and start constructing a causality model based on karma which I find is between nihilism and heaven/hell.
_Angie_ IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 15 September 2011 at 11:28am | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Consciousness

Originally posted by angie.4u

Modified assumption #2:  A soul is pure and untouched by karma; but there are subtle energy fields called astral body and causal body that survives death of a physical body & carry impressions, grievances, attachments, memories ...  developed during its several life times  and are responsible for  the unfolding of karma, which could be simply a dissipation of these energy field . Once these energy fields are worked off karma is balanced and we have only the pristine soul.



I see. The plot is getting thicker by the minute.

To prop one gossamer of a theory, it looks like more and more flimsiness needs to be added. Human bodies, astral bodies, causal bodies, souls, several life times...

Doesn't matter. My two scenarios still stand.

There will remain at least one entity (either at the end of time or eternally) that is left unpunished and Karmic system's software should have been cognizant of that anomaly before it sprung into action to start dispensing "justice".

Do people who believe in any of this ever use their gray matter at all?!

How predictable indeed ! I have no idea about how many believe or dont believe this. I dont think anyone knows... for sure anyway. Talking about insufficiency of data you may as well collect all the different versions available in an unbiased manner before putting your  grey matter to churn them whichever way you like .LOL

Did you hear this version?. Yes the plot gets thicker as you say. The souls are allotted different dimensions or levels according to their karmas even while they await a body to inhabit. It takes a very long time for them to work out their karmas in those realms so the souls  in the comparatively higher realms have the option  of choosing their time and place , parents that they feel is best suited to work out their karmas and thus move on to higher levels. Those in the lower realms do not have that option but are compulsorily reborn .   

The souls from the higher realms try and help those in the lower ones to come out of their spell of hell like conditions. Something akin to waking up from a nightmare or a dream within a dream. Idea seems to be to get the spell (maya) broken and wake up to ...nothingness! What a waste and ado about nothing !!!

Now do stop glaring K !  believe me, I didnt make that up! It was there in a book authored by a person who was auto writing or communicating with the spirits. Actually it appeared in more than one book by different authors ... I better stop here as i can see you pulling out your hair by now LOL

BTW if the universe is just an illusion can it ever end as long as there is even one body /spirit or  whatever you d like to name it that continues to  identify itself as separate from the source?

           


Edited by angie.4u - 15 September 2011 at 11:29am
_Angie_ IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 15 September 2011 at 11:56am | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades



Social and legal justice is flawed on many accounts and if anyone is wronged or missed out by these justice systems - and there is no larger safety net, forget justice actions themselves seem to lose their meaning. Perhaps the universe does not need justice and just is, but then why do I have this innate sense of justice in me. Even if it is a human construct from generations of civilization, why did it come about, why does it sustain - why is it not something more neutral like the universe itself. Even rational morality seems to be pointless if actions are meaningless in the larger scale of things. Life appears meaningless because at the sum of it all it makes no difference. X thought it was right, and did right. Y thought it was wrong, and did wrong anyways. Hundred years from now X and Y are both dead. Neither X nor Y matter.

So then I start believing that a greater scheme of things is necessary and start constructing a causality model based on karma which I find is between nihilism and heaven/hell.
If we go by the BG, the way to liberation is to stop the feeling of doership. If that can be practiced there would no longer be a sense of wrongdoer or a victim. that would dispense the need of any justice and perhaps karma. So it could all be in the mind.
 
Sarina, I ve been wondering about your own signature ever since i read your comments on another signature...LOL
return_to_hades IF-Veteran Member
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Posted: 15 September 2011 at 12:42pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by angie.4u

If we go by the BG, the way to liberation is to stop the feeling of doership. If that can be practiced there would no longer be a sense of wrongdoer or a victim. that would dispense the need of any justice and perhaps karma. So it could all be in the mind.


But again my conundrum, does life have any meaning when we eliminate the value of doing, of action? Everything becomes square one.

But then if that is how the universe is and liberation is being one with the universe - we have to devolve and strip ourselves of our human experience.
 
Originally posted by angie.4u

Sarina, I ve been wondering about your own signature ever since i read your comments on another signature...LOL


ZOMG! Shocked

What have you been thinking Angie????

Its lyrics from an original song from Brittany S Pierce in Glee.  LOL Although the lines can be taken in many ways. Maybe its time to change the signature. LOL

My Cup

I got you in the palm of my hand
Wanna put somethin' hot in you
So hot that you can't stand (And you can't stand)

Gonna take you to my lips
Empty out every last drop
So thirsty for what's in you, baby
That I can't stop (That I can't stop)

In the middle of the night, I'm in bed alone
Don't care if you're glass, paper, styrofoam
When I need some water, baby, coffee or gin
You're the only thing, I wanna put them in

My cup, my cup, my cup
Sayin' what's up to my cup, my cup
More of a friend than a silly pup, my cup
You know what it is
I'm sayin' what's up to my cup (Ahh)
I'm sayin' what's up to my cup (Ahh)
I'm sayin' what's up to my cup (Ahh)

K.Consciousness Senior Member

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Posted: 15 September 2011 at 1:40pm | IP Logged
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