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+* Krishna's clan *+ (Page 7)

..RamKiJanaki.. IF-Stunnerz
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Posted: 04 July 2012 at 7:32pm | IP Logged
I have a question. Actually, this is not really related to Krishna or Mahabharat actually, but I think the answer may be in MB more than any other purana.
 
I found out the other day that in regions where cousin marriages are still done, there are restrictions on them. As per our scriptures, cousins cannot marry if they are the children of two sisters or two brothers. A boy's mother and the girl's father either have to be siblings, or the boy's father and the girl's mother have to be siblings. However, I also learned that there is a restriction within that and that cousin marriages generally do not happen between a brother's son and a sister's daughter, and that it must be a brother's daughter and sister's son marrying each other if cousin marriage is done.
 
Are there any instances in our puranas of cousin marriages being done between a brother's son and sister's daughter? I know of a few marriages between a sister's son and brother's daughter, like Subhadra and Arjun's marriage, but I've never heard of the other way (a brother's son and sister's daughter).
 
I'm just interested to know if there are such instances if anyone knows...in South India, it's called eduru menarikam and generally people look down on those, though cousin marriages between a brother's daughter and sister's son are accepted.

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ShivangBuch

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Posted: 04 July 2012 at 7:35pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

Another question - following the mini-argument I had on the DkDM D&D thread, is there any source that has it that either Pradhyumna or Anirudha survived the Yadava fratricide?  I always knew that both were killed in it - Pradhyumna was in fact the 3rd to be killed - following Kritavarma & Satyaki.
 
I don't exactly know, but I think they too perished because they are said to be amsas of Lord Krishna, so once he is gone why would they remain?
 
Who's the one who survived and Arjuna installed on Dwaraka's throne? Was it Samba?
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Posted: 04 July 2012 at 9:12pm | IP Logged
No, Anirudha's son Vajra.

And no, they were not 'asmas' of Krishna.  Pradhyumna was Kama-dev reborn, and Rati, who had been waiting for him, took the human form of Mayavati and raised him herself.

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varaali

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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 2:10am | IP Logged
My replies in Blue


Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

I have a question. Actually, this is not really related to Krishna or Mahabharat actually, but I think the answer may be in MB more than any other purana.
 
I found out the other day that in regions where cousin marriages are still done, there are restrictions on them. As per our scriptures, cousins cannot marry if they are the children of two sisters or two brothers.

Children of two brothers cannot marry since they will belong to the same gotra and hence related to each other as brother and sister.  Childern of sisters cannot marry since, your mother's sister is like your own mother.

A boy's mother and the girl's father either have to be siblings, or the boy's father and the girl's mother have to be siblings. However, I also learned that there is a restriction within that and that cousin marriages generally do not happen between a brother's son and a sister's daughter, and that it must be a brother's daughter and sister's son marrying each other if cousin marriage is done.
 
Are there any instances in our puranas of cousin marriages being done between a brother's son and sister's daughter? I know of a few marriages between a sister's son and brother's daughter, like Subhadra and Arjun's marriage, but I've never heard of the other way (a brother's son and sister's daughter).

Bhadra and Krishna's marraige. Bhadra's mother, Shrutakirti, was Vasudeva's sister. So this is an instance of sister's daughter marrying her uncle's son
 
I'm just interested to know if there are such instances if anyone knows...in South India, it's called eduru menarikam and generally people look down on those, though cousin marriages between a brother's daughter and sister's son are accepted.

No, in fact it used to be quite popular till a few decades ago. In fact, if a opportunity was there, a mother would be quite keen that her daughter marries into her (the mother's) maternal home. 



Edited by varaali - 05 July 2012 at 2:13am

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ShivangBuch..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 5:15am | IP Logged
Not just Bhadra-Krishna's, but Mitravindrya-Krishna's as well.  Mitravindya's mother had the same relationship w/ Vasudeva.

One thing I noticed - all these cousin marriages were in SB, and only the Arjun-Subhadra one fell within MB.  And Nakula-Karenamati.  The latter was a case of the offspring of 2 sister's marrying, unless one considers Nakula as not Kunti's son for genetic purposes (which is the main, if not only, root of objection to such unions).  In case of Arjun-Subhadra, what restrictions were there?  Arjun was Kunti's son, no matter how one slices or dices it, while Subhadra was Vasudev's daughter, regardless of whether she was born to Devaki or Rohini.

Some of the other cousin marriage stories going around seemed invented - Abhimanyu-Vatsala and Parikshit-Madravati.  Parikshit's wife was Iravati, who was not connected to Matsya (while the claim about Madravati was that she was Uttar's daughter, which is impossible, since Uttar was a boy, and probably unmarried and childless.  In fact, the Virata dynasty was one of the ones that was completely wiped out in the war).

Incidentally, kshatriya dharam requires that there be 7(!) generations of separation b/w a husband and wife for such a marriage to be legal.  But the above cases seemed to be clear violations of that rule.

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ShivangBuch..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 6:18am | IP Logged
Thanks for letting me know, Varaali and Vrish! Actually, this doubt came up in my family so that's why I was wondering. If Shri Krishna himself married his aunt's daughter, then he must have considered it the same kind of cousin marriage as his aunt's son marrying his sister. I was just told that eduru menarikam was looked down upon since when a woman leaves her natal home and her name changes to that of her husband's, it is unacceptable for her daughter to return to that home and take her mother's former surname.
 
@Vrish,
 
In the case of Arjun and Subhadra's marriage, there were no restriction. I gave them as an example to show what kind of cousin marriages are actually most acceptable, at least now in South India.
 
I don't know about Abhimanyu-Vatsala, but if the Vatsala you're talking about is Balram's daughter, she is known as Sesirekha in the South, and Abhimanyu-Sesirekha's love story is actually quite popular. I too don't know if it actually happened or not, since none of the major sources have it, but it brought fourth a lot of popular movies and dramas. I guess we'll never know the origins of such stories, not just Abhimanyu-Sesirekha but als Ram-Hanuman yudh, etc. People could have made them up or they could have actually happened and not been noted down.

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ShivangBuch.Vrish.

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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 10:51pm | IP Logged
There seem to be two points under discussion here:

  1. Whether there were cousin marriages in ancient times
  2.  Whether, such marriages were in accordance with Manu Smriti
Two types of cousin marriages were prevalent as we have seen: 

Children of Brother- Sister  (whether son of brother marrying sister's daughter or vice versa) getting married seems to have been common. Examples : Arjuna-Subhadra, Krishna=- Bhadra, Krishna - Mitravindya, etc

However at no cost were the children of two brothers entered into wedlock. (I am not sure about children of sisters, though- are there any stray examples?)


However, Manu Smriti (MAnav Dharmashastra) does not approve of such marriages. (Chapter 11, verse 172, 173). There is a penance prescribed as a deterrent. 

While I know, that communities in Northern India, still follow this religiously, somehow, in South India this system has not only been followed, but flourished, till recently. Among some of the Keralite castes, which followed the Marumakatayam  (Matrilineal system of inheritance) this kind of cousin - alliances were more common than exception.


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.Vrish.

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Posted: 05 July 2012 at 11:18pm | IP Logged
Does Manu's Smriti or any of the ancient or classical schools of Vedic Jurisprudence have any rules re: the number of generations of separation b/w 2 people for a marriage b/w them to be legal?

I read somewhere (in a Rajput wiki site) that kshatriyas have to have 7 generations of separation.  Have you seen that anywhere, and are there similar prescribed numbers for Brahmans, Vaisyas and Shudras?

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