The intent of punishment -- and Jagya - Page 3

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Suchi- thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Awesome posts by both Annika and Doyelpakhi great insights into rightful two POVs. 


atominis thumbnail
Posted: 12 years ago
@Doyelpakhi

I never said that Anandi and Jagya need to stay together even if there is no love or mutual respect between them! I am not talking about law or social obligation with the intention of pointing out that J and A need to stay together.

I am talking about making a mockery of all laws and obligations to suit one's own selfish needs!

He could have separated from her by consulting a lawyer in the first place or by doing a search on the net about such laws and complications.

He wanted to take all matters in his hands and twisted every rule out there to fit his own ends!

I again repeat - Anandi should have filed a case against him, but rejected him from her life., refused to take him back in her life!

You say, Jagya might think she's jealous or taking revenge. Then does it mean we should never take action in such cases of adultery/divorce etc., fearing that other person might not start calling us bad or jealous?

Thinking about our own reputation in eyes of wrong-doer and his/her accomplice is more important than upholding justice?!

Should women like A never take any action just to protect their reputation in eyes of their wrong-doer husband? Should even parents think before supporting their DIL lest they end up ruining their own or their DIL's reputation in their son's eyes?!

Does Anandi need validation from Jagya to maintain her self respect? Does self respect come from one's own self or does it need certification and testimonials from others? 

As for begging - Jagya is not really begging! For him, it is ''asking''. And ''asking'' is different from begging! It's not like he's on his knees, grabbing Anandi's feet, and begging with cupped hands in front of her or trying his best to convince her to have pity on him and give him money!

He is ''asking''. For him it's like a ''favour'' which he feels Anandi would naturally do since she can't ever go against him.  

He has accepted it like any other ''rule'' of his frustratingly adarshvaadi, domineering, ziddi father! He feels bad, but he channelises those bad feelings not in thinking that his own ego is getting hurt, but by thinking that he's some sort of martyr, bearing this so-called punishment or ''zulm'' meted out by Bapu sa, since he hurt his ego by not sticking with the woman chosen by his Bapusa!

Is he realising what he did was wrong? His ways were wrong?  He still thinks he is in fact, the wronged party!! And is bearing ill-treatment because he fought for personal freedom! He thinks of himself as a lone crusader or martyr or some misunderstood innocent lamb!

He bears (and has borne) many things which he doesn't enjoy, only to get to do things which he does enjoy and can't bear to give up!

It was shocking for him seeing his family desert him. But see, he knew they would come down like a ton of bricks on him when he enters the house with Gauri and they learn of his new marriage! He never wanted to come to the house! He tried his best to dissuade even Gauri from visiting them and tried to convince her to forget about them and their approval!

It's not like he was always hoping for approval! His hope only woke up a bit when he saw DS declaring that G is also beendni and has all rights. He thought maybe DS would make everyone accept everything, like she covers up all his blunders since his birth!

Again I reiterate, is he realising why the family is so angry at him? What wrong has he done? No! He breaks down thinking no one understands him, even DS now ignored him (did not cut off but ignored) and that he is wronged party! He's a victim! He doesn't realise that he has also victimised his family by doing things the wrong way!

He is ready to forget all about them and move on (like he was earlier, before going to Jetsar with Gauri). He still feels their backlash was natural since he defied them and hurt their ego, ruined their reputation!

About legal disowning - If Bhairon had legally disowned Jagya first. Then Jagya would have had no right to go to court asking for property! Property, disowning etc., these decisions lie with the person who has hold over the property. If they has first disowned him and deprived him of family name and property and dissociated from him legally, as parents. Then J could not have been able to do anything to harm their family prestige!

To say that they didn't take such an action fearing about family prestige, well, if they kick out son, make DIL as daughter, send her to school or let her go door-to-door as social worker, even that would have made people of that area point fingers at them and their family prestige! Jagya has already done enough to harm family prestige by going around with Gauri painting the village red!

Law and relationships:

Again and again I say, Anandi and Jagya need not be together due to law! I am not calling out for law to safeguard their relationship and make them stay together even if there is no love!! NOPE!!

Leaving a partner is NOT wrong-doing!!! Keeping a person in dark for years, cheating on her, bringing another woman to house and expecting that old one should be kicked out or left to do her own thing - that is all that is wrong!!!  

Not even once did I mention that leaving Anandi was wrong! Not leaving her in the proper manner was wrong! Cheating her for 5 years was wrong! Marrying second time without separating from the first wife was wrong! Ignoring first wife, thinking she would be illegal anyways was wrong! Not bothering about laws was wrong! Lying in a court of law was wrong! Bribing and twisting rules was wrong!!

It is not leaving Anandi, but the way he left her, that is wrong!  He is liable for punishment for this, not for thinking of leaving her!!

Anandi-Jagya's relationship is neither love or dating nor live-in relationship. It was marriage. Proper marriage socially and legally after they turned 18! Examples of live-in relationships or love before marriage don't make sense here. That's not even the topic.

Yes a person must focus on herself/himself and his/her well-being. 

But Anandi did not even want Jagya to know of these laws, to even learn that what he had done was wrong!!  She had refused to take action earlier also!

Did she take this decision for family prestige and DS? Or did she take this decision because she was attached to Jagya, had some loyalty towards him - and as she used to cover up his blunders in teenage but remained truthful in her own conduct, so she covered up this blunder also, but remained what she was??!!

Is this decision for self-preservation? Or loyalty and emotional attachment to others?!

Anandi was not alone. She could have easily focused on rebuilding her life. While her Bapu sa, Sumitra, Basant, Gehna and even DS were there to support her in that court case and share its burden! She could have fought the case too.

When you take someone else to court, does it mean you ruin chances of rebuilding your own life? Are all those people who go to court, in case of adultery or illegal marriages, cheating etc. foolish and killing time of court and wasting their own lives?

Then why only in case of relationships? Even in case of rape, a victim should concentrate on overcoming the trauma, building her life from a scratch rather than filing a case! In case of murder, the family should try to forget the past, accept that their family member has gone to heaven, and try to move on, rebuild their lives and stay safe?

If there's a theft in my house, I ought to secure my house, learn to be safe and overcome fear. No need to take action against thief. 

Do we always have to think only as individuals? Or also as citizens who have some duty or responsibility?

Do you agree that there should be NO laws in case of relationships?! Family courts and laws are useless and redundant?! Did law-makers make a mistake somewhere by adding such laws? 

Are these laws for benefit of citizens or are these there only to provide more earning opportunities to lawyers and give more work to courts?!

Gehna-Basant:

Did Basant really reform? I think we saw him hitting Gehna some months ago! Gehna used to have marks of beatings and physical violence on her face. She had started sleeping outside of the room!

Basant bahaar did not reform!! He returned to his patjhad ways quite soon!

Gehna is living with Basant only due to her son and because she has nowhere else to go except her maayka. She cannot afford to be another burden on her parents who already have two more daughters to deal with. She could also not afford to jeopardise marriage prospects of her sisters, by leaving her in-laws! - In context of the backward background.

And why should reform apply only to women? Why don't we, as viewers demand to see men accepting reforms and changes in women?! Why does a Jagya laugh and make a mockery of Anandi's efforts to bring herself up to be worthy of his status?

Women should allow men to change and accept them. Men can be okay, even if they don't give chances to women or laugh at their efforts to change themselves!

Do women get chances to reform? No!

But as I said earlier, men can always get to have their own way whether they reform themselves or not!

Society is not changing really. Still heavily biased in favour of men and their supporters.

I again ask:

Is Anandi being strong and setting herself free by refusing to drag him to court? 

Or does her decision stem from an unresolved attachment and sense of loyalty towards Jagya?!

Just as King Dhritrashtra couldn't bring himself to check Duryodhan, curb his wrong-doings and let him do anything, instead of performing his duties as a king and upholder of justice.

Isn't Anandi leaving Jagya to his own thing out of moh/attachment?

Dhritrashtra knew his son was wrong. But he always pleaded his hands were tied due to putr ka moh.

Are Anandi's hands also tied due to pati/bachpan ke mitr ka moh?😲

When Lord Ram made Sita go through agni-pariksha, did he do so as revenge, to make her pay for crossing the Lakshman Rekha? Or did he do so to uphold justice and fairness as an ideal King/leader/citizen?

In Sikh religion, there is the story of Baba Atal, who was the son of Guru Hargobind, the sixth Guru of Sikhs. Baba Atal had divine powers being the son of the Guru. Guru always used to tell him never to use his powers to his heart's content or make a show of them. But one day, Baba Atal, made his dead friend come to life with his divine powers. Guru Hargobind was enraged by this and admonished his son for trying to challenge God's will, by restoring that friend's life.

After this incident, Baba Atal (who was only 9 years old) had to decide to give up his life and return to heavenly home. He offered prayers, took a sacred bath and died.

Guru was not shaken by his son's death. He only said that it is God's Will that whoever is born, must someday die.

Now, did the Guru admonish his son and did the son give up his powers and his life - for punishment or revenge? Or did this all happen, because they wanted to uphold the sanctity of God's Will and Nature's Law?

Are laws or Constitution only there for cosmetic purposes?! Show off? Do we turn to them for personal gain, personal vengeance or is it also because as citizens it is our duty to uphold the integrity of law and respect of individuals?

Personal revenge would be if someone tries to use laws to deliberately or FALSELY ''frame'' a person! Not if you're actually wronged!

Whenever an Anandi or such a woman in real life, files a case or protests or goes to an NGO, is she doing it for just herself? Her revenge? Or does it also show that you can't trample on another human being's life and that the law is there to protect the integrity and rights of every individual?!

Wouldn't Anandi's case have set an example for other women? Wouldn't it have shown people that they are not alone, they need not be helpless and have others walking all over them, because the law is there for them?

Anandi wants to change the system. And system is basically made up of individuals. Individuals like Jagya are a part and product of that system too. If she can't let the Law punish Jagya (she doesn't have to punish Jagya, the law has to!) or deal with such individuals, then how can she be hopeful of changing the system?!!

When tomorrow, she will talk to other women about child marriage in her social work, she will also come across women like her who were trashed thinking they were illegal wives and had no rights. What if some of those women, were still in love with their husbands, had no support from in-laws, did not want to get educated or have a career but only wanted their husband back? Then, wouldn't Anandi educate them about such laws??

With what face will she educate them, if she has let another man go scott-free and have his cake and eat it too?!

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Is Anandi's decision towards Jagya - a sign of her strength and power? Or is it symbolic of her weakness and powerlessness owing to life-long attachment and loyalty for her husband/childhood friend?

If there's some poisonous plant that is harmful and needs to be eliminated - do we need to just attack its roots? Or do we also need to check that its ''fruits'' also don't grow and reach others and new seeds don't get scattered & give rise to new plants?!

I need enlightenment on this. I am not posting this for the sake of having one-up in an argument.














Mehek25 thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Sorry guys am pretty new to this forum but this post caught my interest and I read all ur views on it. Almost all of u are of the same opinion that Anandi should take Jagya to court. so fine she sues him and what will the court decree? That J-A marriage is legally valid and J-G marriage is null and void. Then what???? J will either be sent to jail or he will be asked to go back to A and live as husband and wife. Will he do it? And why will he do it? He has shown time and time again that he cares two hoots for his family. at the moment he is so totally obsessed with G that he cannot see anyone or anything other than her.I use the word obsessed and not love because J is incapable of loving anyone other than himself. Not even his parents. In that case what life will a have assuming he goes back to her under compulsion.  Although knowing his character he will simply walk out again and live with Gauri.

He definitely needs to be taught a lesson but not by punishment. I feel that a person like J needs to live a life where he is ostracised from all his loved ones. He should realise his mistake and repent for it. He should make the first move to go back to his family, even if 
it is only for his parent's sake. and they should not have anything to do with him. Its only when he loses ALL his relationships because of the one illegal relationship he struck up that he will realise the true value of his loss.

As for comparing bigamy with rape...both are no doubt punishable offences but rape just can not be compare to bigamy. Although both are criminal offences but in the case of bigamy prosecution is not automatic. There is a lot of legality involved in all this but I can only say that comparing bigamy and rape would not be appropriate.

Sorry but i have only expressed my POV.

atominis thumbnail
Posted: 12 years ago
@Mehek

Bigamy is not being compared with rape. We've given examples of wrong-doing, crime - be it theft or rape or forgery or even erring students in an academic institution - anyone who plays with laws and rules! 

I think you did not ready my posts carefully (since they were lengthy!). Jagya is not being punished at all. And this is no ostracism which he is facing! He gets money from home and A keeps informing him of everyone's well-being.

Plus he does not think of this ostracism as punishment. He believes he's making some sacrifice or being martyred for living life by his own choice! He maintains he is not wrong. He still feels he's facing all this because he hurt his elders' ego and refused to stick to their choice of a life partner for him. He's even said these lines to them in previous episodes (Meri bhi galti nahin hai/Aap yeh sab iss liye kar rahe hain kyunki aapki ego hurt kar di maine/Maine tumse kaha tha Gauri yeh log nahin samjhenge, etc.).

He and Gauri think that they are wronged! They either feel victims of fate/destiny or victims of authoritarian adults. They, especially Jagya, never realise that they are the ones who're actually wrong.

And I have repeated this umpteen times that I don't want to see him sticking to Anandi! I want him punished for cheating her, keeping her in dark and doing all things the wrong way! He's tried to twist laws of the land and he ought to be punished for making a mockery of laws!

Strange I keep writing so much and even over-explain myself, still people read one line and give a conclusion!

Upholding justice is important. It's the duty of every citizen. I asked in my post yesterday, is Anandi's silence stemming from her moving past J or is she reluctant to act because she is still attached to him? 
tinoo thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
[QUOTE=annika20
He and Gauri think that they are wronged! They either feel victims of fate/destiny or victims of authoritarian adults. [/QUOTE]
 
 
I think this is the crux of the whole problem in a nutshell. Well said!
 
 
vasuja thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
Annika I agree 100% with u...I like Anandi too...But I am against her non punishment policy...It gets on my nerves... God helps people who help themselves...She has ample proofs to get justice and she is letting go...I always feel to move on in real sense one needs a closure.

Either she should have iniotiated the divorce herself, atleast if she is not punishing him

or

Properly punish him and send him to jail.

I prefer the second choice but i am pretty sad that she did not start the divorce process herself. I hope she does that and her reason is that I want to move on and leave my past instead of I don't want Jagya Gauri to have the burden of illegal rishta...Why should being good mean being a softie...Infact my mom used to say that people who are calm and quiet are more dangerous and if you unnecessarily hurt them then they turn deadly...So in reality a person so loving and calm like Anandi would have been extremely violent after Jagya's behaviour...

I like Anandi, but I cannot close my eyes. I am totally unhappy that Jagat got scott free and knowing Anandi Jagat will get an easy divorce, his education will be funded by her and he will settle down comfortably in life...thats so sad...I can tell that many women will give their right hand to punish Jagya if they were in her place...Gosh such women will be feeling cheated seeing Anandi.
atominis thumbnail
Posted: 12 years ago
@Vasuja

If there was any woman in her place she would either punish him or leave him totally and perhaps even leave his home!

No woman would see to it that his education, lifestyle in Mumbai is duly funded and he is regularly informed of his family members' well-being!

Yes she will divorce him only to relieve him and Gauri of the illegal label. She won't do it for her own liberation!

What Anandi is doing is strange!

I think if she really wanted to sacrifice for him, then she should have committed suicide so that no one turns out J from the house or has him ask her for money. She could have asked for full rights and acceptance for J and G as her dying wish. That aakhri kasam aur marne se pehle aakhri iccha which no one could have dared to ignore!

Mamla khatam! Kurbaani of true adarsh bhartiya nari.πŸ‘πŸ€’

[P.S - I think we should remember that even Maa Durga has a roop called Kali. There is nothing wrong in dealing strictly with sinners! I feel Anandi's so-called values only come from her mother or DS. She hasn't learnt anything from Bhagwad Gita too! To me, she's nothing but the female version of King Dhritrashtra!]
Edited by annika20 - 12 years ago
sreevask thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
It is in  Jag's fate  2 live a jail life and he can't escape it!πŸ˜ƒ

  1. If acc to the court's decree if he had 2 live with A---the life is like a jail life(imprisonment)
  2. If he says no to the court,he  has to go the jail!
  3. As of now,he is already enjoying the jail life with torturing Gouri!πŸ˜†πŸ˜†
    πŸ˜†
Edited by sreevask - 12 years ago
doyelpakhi thumbnail
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Posted: 12 years ago
@ vasuja and annika
 
I completely understand your point
 
@ Annika - I think Anandi is not filing case because she does not want to show herself as some vengeful wife.
 
Of course, there are factors like family prestige and she loves Singh family too dearly to put any stigma to their name by her actions. Her 16 years of attachment to J might be a reason not to punish him but that is not the primary reason.
 
I have already stated that I would love to see Anandi leave him totally and file for divorce. I don't want Anandi to go to police because in JA case, Jagya will see it as a revenge from Anandi. That he has twisted the law of the land will take a backseat in his mind and he will focus more on Anandi's decision while being in jail.
 
As I have written earlier, I was surprised when Bhairon decided to fund J. He wanted him to bow down before A. Bhairon wanted to show J what a gem he has left. It was a paradox - Bhairon knew his son is so shameless that he has gone to Anandi for help... on the other hand, Bhairon wanted to punish J til til karke by making him to get help from A, by demeaning him and by crushing is self-resepct. Problem is - such a punishment would have been okay for any other man. But when J himself had proved himself to be thick-skinned I wonder how Bhairon thought it would teach him a lesson.
 
Disowning him completely and not funding him would be ideal punishment  for J. If that happens, then Jagya will know that his parents and Anandi have given him a chance to live his life on his own terms. Right now he wants to live his life on his terms but without any responsibility.
 
Earning his own livelihood will make him understand that if one wants to live on his/her own terms, he/she should be responsible enough to face the consequences too. He will realize that how difficult it is to live life without family's support; he will know that the world does not revolve around his wishes; he will understand that to sustain a relationship with Gauri he has to be more responsible and sensible - it would be better if he is left alone with Gauri because Jagya can no more play a victim card anymore.
 
Gehna -Basant
 
Genha's Basants recent problems had been due to umm, Basant's certain physical problemsπŸ€” 
But they had sorted it out. This time too - Gehna did not take bully from Basant just like any other submissive wife. She might not have left the house, but she answered Basant whenever it was necessary to make him realize his wrong doings and at the same time tried to work on their relationship. Basant too understood that he has to get over his own complexities to save his marriage.
 
Also - Gehna is not staying with Basant just because of her son or for her own parents. There was a scene when Gehna was in mental turmoil for leaving her newborn son and in a temple, she was asking for forgiveness from God. At that time, she confessed that she loves her husband too. Her love did not stem for being married to Basant but because of his care and understanding that he showed to her. Niranjan- the music teacher heard it and it was then he decided to do his best to bring Basant-Gehna together. Also, Gehna told Shyam once that she is ready to stay with Basant but not in the haveli with DS for DS has insulted her too much to bear.
 
Basant did change after his marriage with Gehna - there are amples of proof. He tried to make Gehna happy even though he has to make a balancing act with DS; he told the doctor to save Gehna and not their child when the doctor gave him the option; he tried to find groom for Gehna instead of taking revenge from her; he accepted Gehna after she came back to haveli.
 
If it would have been earlier Basant, he would have never accepted Gehna as his wife again after she left the house.  At the most, Basant would have let Gehna to stay for sometime to take care of nandu and then he would have shown Gehna the door when she was not needed for the baby. Most men would have done that, Basant did not do that. He accepted not only as the mother of his son but also as his wife.
 
That's how a relationship works - even if one person makes mistakes the other person can't leave in a huff and has to try to sort it out. On the other hand, the person who commits the follies need to understand it as early as possible to save the relationship. In Gehna-Basant's case, the problems got solved in sahi waqt and Gehna did not have to constantly give chances to Basant.
Edited by doyelpakhi - 12 years ago