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psawyer

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Posted: 19 June 2011 at 4:31pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Mahi623

@psawyer: My attitude towards Buffy-Spike is very very complicated. While I love the portrayal of the relationship and find it more compelling than Buffy-Angel, I still honestly believed, as Spike did, that Buffy did not truly mean that "I love you" in the series finale,  Totally agree. I love Buffy-Angel, but I get (now) how they couldn't be together. Not then, as they were, anyway. When he was on BtVS, Angel was always in her shadow, never able to fulfil HIS destiny...his journey. Only after he went to LA did he start to become his own person. Plus the fact that really, he was only bound by his soul, and that at any moment his soul could be taken away from him. Thus he had to be more controlled than anyone else in Buffy-verse. Spike, on the other hand, had a conscience of faith BEFORE he got his soul back, and indeed he only got his soul back for Buffy, or because he knew he wanted to be better than he was. Angelus would never have done that. Nonetheless, I still believe that somewhere along the way, Angel and Buffy have finished becoming "cookies" and have found each other and can be together again. 


As for Spike, I also know that she did not mean "I love you" in the sense that he would have wanted. She loved him but I don't believe she was ever in love with him, not for one moment. 

I agree about Spike being her best friend by the end of the series. Willow and Xander were always each other's best friends first...and Spike was the only one who got her, especially in the early sixth season: Totally, and the thing about Willow and Xander was that they had never been there; apart from the short Dark Willow stint, neither of them knew what it was to be the one who had the most power, but the one who had to make the hard decisions, the sacrifices, the painful choices. I still remember that season 7 episode where Anya had killed a bunch of men in her vengeance, and Buffy had to decide to stop her (i.e. kill her) and Xander kicked up a fuss. (which, btw, I hated because how dare he? I loved Xander, but in that one moment I hated him for being hypocritical, as he had been the one to cheer Buffy on when she had to kill Angel). And Buffy told Xander that she had loved Angel more than life itself, and that she had had to give him up to save the world; it was up to HER to make those decisions. Is it any wonder that Buffy was drawn to vampires like Angel and Spike? Any wonder that Angel was the love of her life, Spike was her best friend and Riley was nothing? Angel and Spike were warriors, like Buffy, fighting literally for their lives, fighting for atonement, for redemption. No one else, not even Willow and Xander, could understand that. 

I loved that episode in s7 after the gang have kicked Buffy out of the house (Angry) and Spike goes to her, and tells her that she is his hero, that she is the bravest person he knows. As much as I didn't like their physical relationship, I *loved* this aspect to their relationship. As he once told her, she made him feel like a man. 

Many people think (thought) that Buffy was the least interesting of all the characters, and I can see how they might think that - because ultimately she had to be the "good" one, the one who did the right thing and made the tough calls. That's why Faith seemed so interesting, because she was the "dark side" of Buffy, the Slayer who could do all the things Buffy wanted to but couldn't do. All the other characters could be and do evil and bad things but Buffy - the minute she did something remotely bad (season 6), people started hating her. Season 6 was called the darkest - and sometimes the weakest - of seasons, because Buffy had started to drift towards the darkness, to use people like they used her, to do things without thoughts of consequences. 
 
"Life's not a song. Life isn't bliss. Life is just this."  Yup! Know the lyrics by heart
 
Faith/Angelus: YUP!! They were crazy! I am talking fourth season Angel here, not third season lets trick Faith episode of Buffy. But Angelus has instant chemistry with EVERYONE! The epic swordfight still gives me tingles. Oh yeah, I'm talking fourth season of Angel too - Orpheus and the whole walking through Angel's mind thing. Back in season 1 Angel, I was angry at Angel supporting Faith over Buffy (though he didn't really), but later I started to see how and why he did that - theirs was a similar relationship to Buffy - Spike (without the sex) - they were the only people who truly understood each other. Both Angel and Faith had killed, and had been forced to live with those decisions and mistakes. They were soldiers in the same fight, so no wonder they were like kindred spirits. 
 
Ugh! Connor! I blame him completely for Cordy's downfall..I know Jasmine was mostly responsible but at least she was evil, Connor was just an idiot who fell for his own "adoptive" mother..The whole Connor/Jasmine storyline was just meh, in my opinion. If the rumours are true, it was Joss' one mistake in letting personal matters override the show. 
 
Sorry for the Buffy ramble, I just really really love the show Lol, I've just rambled on as well LOL I could write essays on Buffy - I'm just glad I've found someone to read them LOL
 
Also, have you noticed how NO ONE ever mentions Riley in the Spike vs Angel debate? That poor non entity. Yeah, Riley was barely a person. He was convenient, and Buffy's attempt at being normal. But he wasn't her match in any way, and the poor guy was just too blah to even be considered in the running for Buffy's affections. 

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Mahi623

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Posted: 19 June 2011 at 5:17pm | IP Logged
I LEARNT HOW TO QUOTE!!! Yay!! There was this button. Who knew? Wink
 
Originally posted by psawyer

Originally posted by Mahi623

 When he was on BtVS, Angel was always in her shadow, never able to fulfil HIS destiny...his journey. Only after he went to LA did he start to become his own person.

 
I actually felt that this carried over in the few episodes of Angel that Buffy was a part of. In fact, there was this running theme that as long as Buffy was there, she would always be the alpha in the relationship. There's  even this moment when Angel even says that Buffy is "a little" more stronger than him. Meant to be an understatement. Or when, Cordelia, giving Buffy the dose of reality that she always gives says that she cannot have the slayer life, and protect Angel constantly.
 
Plus the fact that really, he was only bound by his soul, and that at any moment his soul could be taken away from him. Thus he had to be more controlled than anyone else in Buffy-verse.
 
I love this little glimpse about him. The first line that actually made me think of Wesley as a real person, rather than thats the idiot who thinks he can replace Giles/Doyle was when he told Angel: "You walk a fine line, I don't envy you." I think a large part of Angel's remorse and redemption comes from the fact that Angelus would never willingly accept a soul back. And The Thin Dead Line showed that Angel does on some very real level identify with this desire. Otherwise, why else would Angel be so remorseful for something he cannot control?
 
Spike, on the other hand, had a conscience of faith BEFORE he got his soul back, and indeed he only got his soul back for Buffy, or because he knew he wanted to be better than he was. Angelus would never have done that.
Nonetheless, I still believe that somewhere along the way, Angel and Buffy have finished becoming "cookies" and have found each other and can be together again. 
 
I think Tara unknowingly alludes to this in Fool for Love when she discusses how because the Hunchback was not a good person as everything he does is not for his own motivation, but for his love for Esmeralda- or something to that effect. This total submission, which forms a very important part of Spike's journey, reflects his desire to be good for Buffy's sake. Towards the end of the fifth season, Buffy says that Spike is going with them in the caravan, because he is the only one who has even a shot at protecting Dawn. Of course, she is referring to his superhuman strenght here, but there is also this thing that Spike is the only one would be absolutely devoted to Dawn, the same way she was. Why? Because the rest of the Scoobies have a conscience and would choose to do the right thing (ie kill Dawn if that could stop the whole apocalypse) while Spike relies entirely on Buffy's moral code to guide him. Even his fight to win back his soul is just a solidification of finishing the process he started when he first watched over Dawn. What I would love to know if Spike ever developed any affection for Dawn, as he babysat her all those times? Or was it all for Buffy? I say Dawn, because she's the most likely candidate as she had the most interaction with him.
 
As for Spike, I also know that she did not mean "I love you" in the sense that he would have wanted. She loved him but I don't believe she was ever in love with him, not for one moment. 
 
Yes, that's what I meant. Buffy was never, ever in love with Spike. And that makes me love him more, and respect her more, if that makes any sense.  Buffy could never be in love with Spike because unlike Angel, he was never about his own journey as separate from Buffy, Spike was alway always about Buffy. So, to put it in your words, he would always be an "unfinished cookie".
 
 
 
Am writing the response to the rest of the post in another post because, God, this is long.Wink

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psawyer

Mahi623

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Posted: 19 June 2011 at 6:10pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by psawyer

Originally posted by Mahi623

Totally, and the thing about Willow and Xander was that they had never been there; apart from the short Dark Willow stint, neither of them knew what it was to be the one who had the most power, but the one who had to make the hard decisions, the sacrifices, the painful choices.

 Another example that can illustrate that is in the fifth season finale when Buffy makes the opposite decision, and chooses not to kill Ben. I loved how Giles explained it to Ben that Buffy was a hero, and she had to make these incredibly painful choices, and one of which was to let Ben go- the same man who sold her little sister for eternal life(though she didnt know about it) and who contained the one evil she could not defeat.  Buffy chose not to kill Ben, because he was human, and she wouldn't cross that line, just as she has to cross a very different line, and kill one of her best friends if she has to because she is the slayer, and that is what she has to do.

 
Many people think (thought) that Buffy was the least interesting of all the characters, and I can see how they might think that - because ultimately she had to be the "good" one, the one who did the right thing and made the tough calls.
 
Ummm...how can anyone think Buffy was the least interesting person on the main cast when Riley was on it for an entire year??? He totally wins that award...LOLLOL
 
Though, seriously, I think that's what made Buffy so compelling. She had to make these tough calls. And she could never ever, for even a moment, let go of trying to earn her epitaph. To this day, the best conflict in the entire Buffyverse has been the Slayer vs Girl conflict which lasted all seven seasons. It explains why she chose Angel and Spike, and never Xander and Riley. It explains everything and more, gives birth to and fuels more conflicts all over the series, universe and characters.
 
That's why Faith seemed so interesting, because she was the "dark side" of Buffy, the Slayer who could do all the things Buffy wanted to but couldn't do.
 
Faith was interesting, but then with Faith, it was always a matter of time before she would cross one line or another, and then be pulled back in on the nick of time by Buffy or Angel. Before Dawn came along, I always thought that the "the little sister is coming" was a reference to Faith and how she was really like this little sister of Buffy- it was nice to watch Faith muck things up just to see how far she would go, but only with the safety blanket of knowing Buffy would save the day in the end, as usual.
 
All the other characters could be and do evil and bad things but Buffy - the minute she did something remotely bad (season 6), people started hating her. Season 6 was called the darkest - and sometimes the weakest - of seasons, because Buffy had started to drift towards the darkness, to use people like they used her, to do things without thoughts of consequences. 
 
Season six is amazing. One of the many things I love about the series is that it always manage to match the tone the audience is feeling. In the fourth season premiere, everyone(the audience) is feeling kind of lost because Angel is gone, Cordy is gone, high school is gone, and Buffy, too feels that same sense of loss. In the same way, as much as I was glad that Buffy was back, there was also this feeling that she had got the perfect death and her journey was truly over and yet she was literallly ripped from her destiny by people who still wanted her to hang on and be awesome(her friends and, on a meta scale, us) Gone, Smashed and Wrecked left me with this weird feeling that finally, Buffy was hitting  that low. It also left a bad taste with every Buffy-Spike fan because that is not how we wanted these two to get together, but if we were honest to ourselves, that was the only way we knew these two could be together. It made me feel guilty that I had wished her back so desperately. Something that Xander and Willow too felt but had internalized completely. (I love the dinnertable conversation at the beggining of Tabula Rosa.)
 
 Oh yeah, I'm talking fourth season of Angel too - Orpheus and the whole walking through Angel's mind thing. Back in season 1 Angel, I was angry at Angel supporting Faith over Buffy (though he didn't really), but later I started to see how and why he did that - theirs was a similar relationship to Buffy - Spike (without the sex) - they were the only people who truly understood each other. Both Angel and Faith had killed, and had been forced to live with those decisions and mistakes. They were soldiers in the same fight, so no wonder they were like kindred spirits. 
 
Oh my God, you are totally right. There is this similarity in the Buffy-Spike and Angel-Faith connection.  I think, back in the third season, Buffy even expresses this feeling that Faith knows more about what Angel goes through than Buffy ever could. Similarly, Spike is the only one who can understand what Buffy goes through in the sixth season. Willow and Xander are in denial. Dawn is angry. Giles can only guess at it, and Tara and Anya have only ever been "backups"
 
 
The whole Connor/Jasmine storyline was just meh, in my opinion. If the rumours are true, it was Joss' one mistake in letting personal matters override the show. 
 
WHAT HAPPENED THERE? Who is to blame for the Jasmine/Connor/Cordelia mess which deprived us of an entire season of the true Cordy before shipping her off into a coma. Who caused the death of the girl who blatantly tells Angel that he is a eunuch in an attempt to explain why some girl has a crush on him..
 
 Lol, I've just rambled on as well LOL I could write essays on Buffy - I'm just glad I've found someone to read them LOL
 
I am always willling to read essays on Buffy.. Wink
 
 Yeah, Riley was barely a person. He was convenient, and Buffy's attempt at being normal. But he wasn't her match in any way, and the poor guy was just too blah to even be considered in the running for Buffy's affections. 
 
Hahaha, I like to think that Riley was just the punching bag in the  showcase of Buffy's girlpower...never a challenge, always an inferior.

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psawyer

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Posted: 19 June 2011 at 9:54pm | IP Logged
@avivakirk, Mahi and psawyer thanks for the support. Fortunately I have always been a rebel and I could care less about what my family thinks I shld do. But my aunties have branded me as a snobbish shrew who doesn't mingle and I don't care coz I still think they're jealous Tongue
Also my dad is pretty cool, he is more keen on me doing some future investment on properties rather than get married.LOL So he is like up to you, it's your life. My mom is 50-50 but she is mostly okay, it's just sometimes when my aunties starts talking abt marriage, she gets on my case. Pinch
 
 
Anyways I am on mission to get my brother hitched first Evil Smile So that he is out of my hair. Wish me luck LOL
 
At then end of the day I think it's Asian n Indian thing that daughters should be married off at certain ages yada yada their logic defies logic for this. Wacko But one should get married for the right reasons not otherwise, sucumbing into pressure isn't going to do anyone good. This bring me to Ram n Priya's case, who will eventually sucumb to pressure and marry. I wonder if there will be a drawback to this decision somewhere along the line. I mean if they fall in love eventually, then it's great but what if there are regretsErmm. What I am saying this is an Ekta show, like they're going to show such inner realistic turmoil LOL
 
 
I see there are some Buffy and Angle fans. I loved Angle more than Buffy. Till today I go 'mmm Angel' EmbarrassedLOL. I always thought that Connor was an ungrateful son and the fact Cordelia n him slept together was a yuck factor Dead

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Posted: 20 June 2011 at 12:46am | IP Logged
Lol, this is probably not the place to have this discussion but since this topic will probably die down after today's BALH episode, I hope no one else minds if we have a little segue LOL

Originally posted by Mahi623

 
I actually felt that this carried over in the few episodes of Angel that Buffy was a part of. In fact, there was this running theme that as long as Buffy was there, she would always be the alpha in the relationship. There's  even this moment when Angel even says that Buffy is "a little" more stronger than him. Meant to be an understatement. Or when, Cordelia, giving Buffy the dose of reality that she always gives says that she cannot have the slayer life, and protect Angel constantly. Absolutely, and I remember Angel angrily telling Buffy in Sanctuary that this was HIS town, and his way of doing things and he would be the one to make the tough calls. Though, on the flip side, Angel also went back to Sunnydale a number of times to protect Buffy - I'm thinking Pangs and The Yoko Factor. He too seems to think that Buffy is his responsibility (in the first) and in the latter, he cannot let Buffy go after saying the things that he did to hurt her. At the end of The Yoko Factor, they have this frank discussion about how they can't live in each other's pockets anymore, and how they can't fight each other's fight. I think after that Angel & Buffy don't see each other anymore, not until Joyce dies at least, and then when Buffy comes back from the dead. 
 
 
I love this little glimpse about him. The first line that actually made me think of Wesley as a real person, rather than thats the idiot who thinks he can replace Giles/Doyle was when he told Angel: "You walk a fine line, I don't envy you." I think a large part of Angel's remorse and redemption comes from the fact that Angelus would never willingly accept a soul back. And The Thin Dead Line showed that Angel does on some very real level identify with this desire. Otherwise, why else would Angel be so remorseful for something he cannot control? I think I too hated Wesley until he showed up in Angel on a motorbike, wearing leathers, and calling himself a "rogue demon hunter" LOL. Perhaps my favourite scene of his was the admission that he'd been thrown out of the Watchers Council after the Faith debacle, and at the end of his first episode, when Cordy and Angel are dealing with the loss of Doyle, and he is making awkward moves to leave when he wants to stay, and Angel just holds him back. Funny though how Wesley always began as a replacement - for Giles, for Doyle - but in the end became such an integral character of his own. 

Angel's struggle for redemption was constant because of exactly what you said - he knew that as Angelus, he would never willingly accept his soul back. Though I believe that a large part of why Spike, in his soulless state, fell for Buffy and subsequently wanted his soul back, was because of his chip. The chip acted as a mini-soul, and the fact that he couldn't hurt humans made his existence pretty pathetic for a while. Some of the funniest moments were watching this formerly brutal Spike, the School Hard Spike, having to live in Xander's basement, watch Passions, wear his floral t-shirts and beg to be killed. In human terms, it unmanned him, and thus he had to focus/fixate on something else that gave him existence. Which turned out to be Buffy. 
 
I think Tara unknowingly alludes to this in Fool for Love when she discusses how because the Hunchback was not a good person as everything he does is not for his own motivation, but for his love for Esmeralda- or something to that effect. This total submission, which forms a very important part of Spike's journey, reflects his desire to be good for Buffy's sake. Towards the end of the fifth season, Buffy says that Spike is going with them in the caravan, because he is the only one who has even a shot at protecting Dawn. Of course, she is referring to his superhuman strenght here, but there is also this thing that Spike is the only one would be absolutely devoted to Dawn, the same way she was. Why? Because the rest of the Scoobies have a conscience and would choose to do the right thing (ie kill Dawn if that could stop the whole apocalypse) while Spike relies entirely on Buffy's moral code to guide him. Even his fight to win back his soul is just a solidification of finishing the process he started when he first watched over Dawn. What I would love to know if Spike ever developed any affection for Dawn, as he babysat her all those times? Or was it all for Buffy? I say Dawn, because she's the most likely candidate as she had the most interaction with him. I think Spike did love Dawn. If in fact Buffy had ever been the one to say "we have to kill Dawn", Spike would have opposed it. That's my view, because in the season 6 opener, no one knew that Buffy was alive but Spike protected Dawn with his life. Now that could have been due to some residual Buffy-hangover that he had, but I like to believe it was more than that. He went with her to resurrect her mother, knowing that it was not what Buffy would want, but also knowing that Dawn was hurting more than anyone else noticed. He protected her, even when protecting her meant doing something that Buffy would not approve of. 

Am writing the response to the rest of the post in another post because, God, this is long.Wink

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Mahi623

psawyer

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Posted: 20 June 2011 at 1:10am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Mahi623

Another example that can illustrate that is in the fifth season finale when Buffy makes the opposite decision, and chooses not to kill Ben. I loved how Giles explained it to Ben that Buffy was a hero, and she had to make these incredibly painful choices, and one of which was to let Ben go- the same man who sold her little sister for eternal life(though she didnt know about it) and who contained the one evil she could not defeat.  Buffy chose not to kill Ben, because he was human, and she wouldn't cross that line, just as she has to cross a very different line, and kill one of her best friends if she has to because she is the slayer, and that is what she has to do. 

As for Ben/Glory - the fact that Giles had to do what Buffy couldn't: kill Ben and thus prevent Glory from ever coming back, was a testament not only to her strength as a Slayer but also his as a father. He was always there, even when he wasn't, to protect her and guide her. But this wasn't like the Angel relationship where there was a struggle for independence. Buffy was always stronger than Giles, physically and mentally in many cases, but where Buffy fell short, or vulnerable, Giles was there to pick up the pieces. 


Ummm...how can anyone think Buffy was the least interesting person on the main cast when Riley was on it for an entire year??? He totally wins that award...LOLLOL
 
Though, seriously, I think that's what made Buffy so compelling. She had to make these tough calls. And she could never ever, for even a moment, let go of trying to earn her epitaph. To this day, the best conflict in the entire Buffyverse has been the Slayer vs Girl conflict which lasted all seven seasons. It explains why she chose Angel and Spike, and never Xander and Riley. It explains everything and more, gives birth to and fuels more conflicts all over the series, universe and characters. Exactly - How can anyone say that Buffy is a weak character? She was the strongest character. For the longest time she was everyone else's moral compass; okay she strayed for a while but understandable really when you are ripped out of heaven only to find yourself back in hell. In high school, she had Giles to make the tough decisions for her - though point to be noted that even at the age of 16, when she discovered that she would die at the Master's hands, she went with the Anointed kid (how annoying was he?) and fulfilled her destiny. She made the tough choice because at  that age, her life WAS life and death. She never wanted to be the Slayer, but when it came down to it, she didn't shirk her responsibility. 

I think there came a point, starting with end of season 5 and stretching till season 7, when Buffy stopped being a girl and just gave over to being the Slayer. She was fed up with trying to make both halves of her life work, to having to lose everyone she loved. After Riley left, and the whole Dawn = The Key saga started, she began to noticeably lose the will to care. The scene in The Gift where Buffy tells Giles that she has given up possibly everything that has been important to her in her life - her father, Angel, even her mother (because while The Slayer can protect people from supernatural evil, she cannot save her own mother from cancer). She tells him that she is tired of "fighting the good fight" when the fight simply never ends, and nothing seems to change. She tells him that if she loses Dawn, the one thing she has left in the world, then she is done. I loved Buffy then, because she knew that Dawn was "not real" that she wasn't really her sister or that they hadn't shared the memories they thought they had but it didn't matter. They were 'Summers' blood' and that was that. In Once More, With Feeling, the whole sequence in the graveyard where she goes about the motions killing vampires, and doesn't even watch her step anymore, really brought home her utter despair. No wonder in season 6 she was so off-balance. She's died, gone to heaven and thinks that FINALLY my fight is over. They, unknowing of this, bring her back, and for what? For selfish reasons because they want her around to kick some more ass? She comes back, and the world hasn't changed. It's still one fight after another, one step after another. No matter how hard she fights, it never ends. I think they summed this up perfectly in Angel's Not Fade Away - the fight is NEVER over, even when you are dead, even when there is no human possibility of you winning. 

One of my favourite quotes from the show is Buffy's parting words to Dawn: "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it". Going from the 16 year old Buffy who just didn't want to die tothis...it really made you feel the depth of what Buffy had been through, the knocks she had faced in her life, the painful paths she had walked to bring her here. And yet, even as she prepares to die, she tells her sister that she has to live, she has to try, she has to fight. This, like so much of Buffy, was symbolic of and metaphoric for all our lives; this wasn't a show about vampires. It was a show about a girl struggling to live life, struggling with the things that life threw at her. For this reason I will always love Buffy, and maybe more than Angel (which I still love but in different ways)  - because it is simply such a metaphor for all our lives. 
 

Season six is amazing. One of the many things I love about the series is that it always manage to match the tone the audience is feeling. In the fourth season premiere, everyone(the audience) is feeling kind of lost because Angel is gone, Cordy is gone, high school is gone, and Buffy, too feels that same sense of loss. In the same way, as much as I was glad that Buffy was back, there was also this feeling that she had got the perfect death and her journey was truly over and yet she was literallly ripped from her destiny by people who still wanted her to hang on and be awesome(her friends and, on a meta scale, us) Gone, Smashed and Wrecked left me with this weird feeling that finally, Buffy was hitting  that low. It also left a bad taste with every Buffy-Spike fan because that is not how we wanted these two to get together, but if we were honest to ourselves, that was the only way we knew these two could be together. It made me feel guilty that I had wished her back so desperately. Something that Xander and Willow too felt but had internalized completely. (I love the dinnertable conversation at the beggining of Tabula Rosa.) I'll be honest, I didn't like season 6 when I first watched it. It could be because my first episode of Buffy ever was The Gift, and then I quickly went back and rewatched the whole 5 seasons and then went on to find 6 too dark and morally ambiguous. But having grown up and watched the entire show from start to finish more than once, I have begun to have a different view of it. Even now, I might not like certain individual episodes (courtesy of Warren, Jonathan and Andrew) but as an arc and as a part of Buffy's journey as a whole, it is a fascinating season. I love the way you point out that there is this meta feeling to the whole of the show, reflecting how we the audience feel within the confines of the show itself. I also felt like The Gift was the perfect end to Buffy's journey and even though I am glad that she was alive in Chosen, I still find The Gift a more fitting finale. I still bawl my eyes out when I see that final shot of her headstone - Buffy; Beloved Sister, Devoted Friend. She kicked ass. A lot. 

I think actually, on reflection, the weakest season for me was season 4. Riley and The Initiative were simply not what they could have been, and even though I enjoyed the "merging" of Buffy & the Scooby Gang in the season finale to fight Adam, Adam himself simply wasn't a fascinating villain in any way. 
 
 
WHAT HAPPENED THERE? Who is to blame for the Jasmine/Connor/Cordelia mess which deprived us of an entire season of the true Cordy before shipping her off into a coma. Who caused the death of the girl who blatantly tells Angel that he is a eunuch in an attempt to explain why some girl has a crush on him..I don't know whose idea Jasmine was; I suppose on paper the whole Angel has a son thing would have seemed very interesting, and it was when Darla was around. It was even interesting when Wesley stole Angel and gave him to Holt because he feared that Angel would kill him, because it made Wes' character, for the first time, complex and ambiguous and gave way to the whole Lilah thing. But beyond that, when Connor came back I just couldn't bring myself to invest in him. He was like Dawn to me, completely abhorrent, though by season 7 I had begun to like Dawn a little more.  
 

Riley was Buffy's idea of "slumming it"- basically of trying one last shot at being normal, before giving up the idea completely. I think deep down she knew she couldn't really fall for him, not after Angel...and mainly she chose him because he couldn't possibly hurt her as bad as Angel did. 
 


Edited by psawyer - 20 June 2011 at 3:09am

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Posted: 20 June 2011 at 12:38pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by psawyer


Originally posted by Mahi623

 
. Absolutely, and I remember Angel angrily telling Buffy in Sanctuary that this was HIS town, and his way of doing things and he would be the one to make the tough calls. Though, on the flip side, Angel also went back to Sunnydale a number of times to protect Buffy - I'm thinking Pangs and The Yoko Factor. He too seems to think that Buffy is his responsibility (in the first) and in the latter, he cannot let Buffy go after saying the things that he did to hurt her. At the end of The Yoko Factor, they have this frank discussion about how they can't live in each other's pockets anymore, and how they can't fight each other's fight. I think after that Angel & Buffy don't see each other anymore, not until Joyce dies at least, and then when Buffy comes back from the dead. 
 
I love that scene where they kind of laugh about it and for the first time, its not so much as angst filled as inevitable. And its the first time that I think either of them actually move on. I don't care that Buffy is dating Riley during this period. This is the point that they finally begin to act on all that stuff they say in The Prom.
 
 
I think I too hated Wesley until he showed up in Angel on a motorbike, wearing leathers, and calling himself a "rogue demon hunter" LOL. Perhaps my favourite scene of his was the admission that he'd been thrown out of the Watchers Council after the Faith debacle, and at the end of his first episode, when Cordy and Angel are dealing with the loss of Doyle, and he is making awkward moves to leave when he wants to stay, and Angel just holds him back. Funny though how Wesley always began as a replacement - for Giles, for Doyle - but in the end became such an integral character of his own. 

I know...I never thought I would like Wesley. I was actually very annoyed when he showed up in the third season, thinking he could replace Giles, and his whole little fascination with Cordelia made me sick, though it was gratifying to see someone appreciate her after  Lover's Walk. But I really liked him in Angel, moreso after the baby Connor plotline where in a weird way, he did become a truly "rogue" demon hunter.

Angel's struggle for redemption was constant because of exactly what you said - he knew that as Angelus, he would never willingly accept his soul back. Though I believe that a large part of why Spike, in his soulless state, fell for Buffy and subsequently wanted his soul back, was because of his chip. The chip acted as a mini-soul, and the fact that he couldn't hurt humans made his existence pretty pathetic for a while. Some of the funniest moments were watching this formerly brutal Spike, the School Hard Spike, having to live in Xander's basement, watch Passions, wear his floral t-shirts and beg to be killed. In human terms, it unmanned him, and thus he had to focus/fixate on something else that gave him existence. Which turned out to be Buffy. 
 
That was probably one of the few good things about the fourth season- Spike being tamed. I loved his interaction with Xander and Giles during that period. I think the chip vs soul debate was actually hashed between Dawn and Buffy in Crush(I think) where Buffy said that Spike's intent was always to do evil, and just because he was physically incapable did not mean anything.
 
But I agree completely that without the chip, Spike would never have fallen in love with Buffy. He would have never have gotten a chance. It also explains why the Buffy-Spike "relationship" is at its worst and lowest point during the second half of the sixth season, when Spike is both soulless and the chip does not work with Buffy anymore. His attitude towards Buffy changes completely when he finds out that she is on "his" level which eventually leads to the attempted rape in Seeing Red.
 
 
 I think Spike did love Dawn. If in fact Buffy had ever been the one to say "we have to kill Dawn", Spike would have opposed it. That's my view, because in the season 6 opener, no one knew that Buffy was alive but Spike protected Dawn with his life. Now that could have been due to some residual Buffy-hangover that he had, but I like to believe it was more than that. He went with her to resurrect her mother, knowing that it was not what Buffy would want, but also knowing that Dawn was hurting more than anyone else noticed. He protected her, even when protecting her meant doing something that Buffy would not approve of. 
 
I always thought the same thing. Though in the sixth season premiere, he does usually say that Buffy would want you to, but I think he developed a kind of affection for Dawn as she was really the only one who was, in a way, dependent on him. He was the one with her during the first resurrection spell,  and during the time when she finds out that she is the key. Dawn needed Spike and looked up to Spike.  He could protect her even when he could not protect Buffy.
He also had a similar affection for Joyce, who really was very nice to him. He probably liked Joyce before he begun liking Buffy.LOL

Mahi623

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Mahi623

Joined: 15 June 2011

Posts: 45

Posted: 20 June 2011 at 3:35pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by psawyer

Originally posted by Mahi623

As for Ben/Glory - the fact that Giles had to do what Buffy couldn't: kill Ben and thus prevent Glory from ever coming back, was a testament not only to her strength as a Slayer but also his as a father. He was always there, even when he wasn't, to protect her and guide her. But this wasn't like the Angel relationship where there was a struggle for independence. Buffy was always stronger than Giles, physically and mentally in many cases, but where Buffy fell short, or vulnerable, Giles was there to pick up the pieces. 
 

I once read this essay on Buffy which traces this first human murder by the core four as the first break of the moral disintegration that formed the theme of the sixth season. The author links it to Buffy and Willow's morally questionable acts and attitude throughout Season Six eventually leading to Willow's murder of Warren. This was treated , in fact,  as an irony because Giles's killing of Ben was his sacrifice as Buffy's father/guardian/protector.

 

I think the best example of Giles picking up the pieces is during Grave. He fights the fight that technically Buffy should have been fighting, but she is not strong enough. He also acts as a father to both Willow and Xander. He almost kills himself to save Willow and he has faith in Xander, that nobody else seems to have, thus, making Xander feel useful for the first time. And of course, Anya- how cute is the I dyed my hair scene?

 
Exactly - How can anyone say that Buffy is a weak character? She was the strongest character. For the longest time she was everyone else's moral compass; okay she strayed for a while but understandable really when you are ripped out of heaven only to find yourself back in hell. In high school, she had Giles to make the tough decisions for her - though point to be noted that even at the age of 16, when she discovered that she would die at the Master's hands, she went with the Anointed kid (how annoying was he?) and fulfilled her destiny. She made the tough choice because at  that age, her life WAS life and death. She never wanted to be the Slayer, but when it came down to it, she didn't shirk her responsibility. 
 

To me, what was even more fascinating was that Buffy at first refuses to fulfill her destiny. It really drives the point that she is sixteen and therefore still a child home. If Buffy had been all gung ho or a martyr about it, what would have been the point of her eventual sacrifice. I find a similar theme in Becoming where after being unable to kill Angelus twice, she finally kills Angel. which makes her action all the more painful.

 
I think there came a point, starting with end of season 5 and stretching till season 7, when Buffy stopped being a girl and just gave over to being the Slayer. She was fed up with trying to make both halves of her life work, to having to lose everyone she loved. After Riley left, and the whole Dawn = The Key saga started, she began to noticeably lose the will to care. The scene in The Gift where Buffy tells Giles that she has given up possibly everything that has been important to her in her life - her father, Angel, even her mother (because while The Slayer can protect people from supernatural evil, she cannot save her own mother from cancer). She tells him that she is tired of "fighting the good fight" when the fight simply never ends, and nothing seems to change. She tells him that if she loses Dawn, the one thing she has left in the world, then she is done. I loved Buffy then, because she knew that Dawn was "not real" that she wasn't really her sister or that they hadn't shared the memories they thought they had but it didn't matter. They were 'Summers' blood' and that was that.
 

I loved Buffy's entire reaction to the whole Dawn is not really her sister revelation. One of my favourite moments of season five is when Buffy and Joyce discuss Dawn. And Joyce asks in this really sweet and hesistating voice that Dawn is not really her's. The entire exchange that follows always make me well up, especially when Joyce tells Buffy to love Dawn as much Joyce loves Buffy.

 
 In Once More, With Feeling, the whole sequence in the graveyard where she goes about the motions killing vampires, and doesn't even watch her step anymore, really brought home her utter despair. No wonder in season 6 she was so off-balance. She's died, gone to heaven and thinks that FINALLY my fight is over. They, unknowing of this, bring her back, and for what? For selfish reasons because they want her around to kick some more ass? She comes back, and the world hasn't changed. It's still one fight after another, one step after another. No matter how hard she fights, it never ends. I think they summed this up perfectly in Angel's Not Fade Away - the fight is NEVER over, even when you are dead, even when there is no human possibility of you winning. 
 

I think they also make a similar point in Redefinitions when Wesley tells Angel that they will go on fighting without him, and he narrates: "Let them fight the good fight. Somebody has to." I think Angel, at that point, is feeling pretty much what Buffy feels during Season Six, to the point where he sleeps with Darla, much as she sleeps with Spike. And that line shows exactly how weary Angel is. And weary is what Buffy seems in the final episodes of season Five to all the way up to Villains, when she finally finds something she still cares about  enough to put her whole heart into the fight. ie Willow's soul.


One of my favourite quotes from the show is Buffy's parting words to Dawn: "The hardest thing in this world is to live in it". Going from the 16 year old Buffy who just didn't want to die tothis...it really made you feel the depth of what Buffy had been through, the knocks she had faced in her life, the painful paths she had walked to bring her here. And yet, even as she prepares to die, she tells her sister that she has to live, she has to try, she has to fight.
 

I love that line as well.  I think a large part of Buffy's decision to die in place of Dawn  stems from the fact that Dawn, being normal, can actually live in this world. Buffy, on the other hand, was always just that one fight away from death. Which is why it made sense for the sisters to switch destinies. Dawn's gift was life( one she was given unnaturally literally because of Buffy) because she could live it, and Buffy's was death because she could never live life.

 
This, like so much of Buffy, was symbolic of and metaphoric for all our lives; this wasn't a show about vampires. It was a show about a girl struggling to live life, struggling with the things that life threw at her. For this reason I will always love Buffy, and maybe more than Angel (which I still love but in different ways)  - because it is simply such a metaphor for all our lives. 
 

I know. Buffy, as a show, is much stronger than Angel. It's this beautiful coming of age story of these bunch of ordinary kids(I know Buffy and Willow have powers, but they are still ordinary people) who are thrown into extraordinary circumstances. It does not always teach a moral lesson. They do not always make the right decision. Watching them circumnavigate through the crap that life throws at them and restructure their own sense of normalcy, family and life is truly beautiful, and makes sense because that is what we all do.


 I'll be honest, I didn't like season 6 when I first watched it. It could be because my first episode of Buffy ever was The Gift, and then I quickly went back and rewatched the whole 5 seasons and then went on to find 6 too dark and morally ambiguous. But having grown up and watched the entire show from start to finish more than once, I have begun to have a different view of it. Even now, I might not like certain individual episodes (courtesy of Warren, Jonathan and Andrew) but as an arc and as a part of Buffy's journey as a whole, it is a fascinating season.
 

I agree. I really disliked the importance given to the Triad or Trio or whatever they called themselves. And I really hated Warren scenes. And while, I was watching the season for the first time, I was like: "seriously, thats the BIG BAD?" but then, in all honesty, while the season might not be quite as fun and sweet as other seasons, it is exactly as it should have been. The characters had to fall apart after what they have been through. All of them hit their breaking points so they could begin the process of healing. Thus, It was a very dark season, but it was also cathartic.

 
I love the way you point out that there is this meta feeling to the whole of the show, reflecting how we the audience feel within the confines of the show itself. I also felt like The Gift was the perfect end to Buffy's journey and even though I am glad that she was alive in Chosen, I still find The Gift a more fitting finale. I still bawl my eyes out when I see that final shot of her headstone - Buffy; Beloved Sister, Devoted Friend. She kicked ass. A lot. 
 

I know. I cried in every finale, except the fourth (I was too busy trying to keep up with the cheese man). But the fifth is really the one you cry the most in, because the way she dies is perfect, and if the series had ended there. It would have been incredibly sad but fitting.


I think actually, on reflection, the weakest season for me was season 4. Riley and The Initiative were simply not what they could have been, and even though I enjoyed the "merging" of Buffy & the Scooby Gang in the season finale to fight Adam, Adam himself simply wasn't a fascinating villain in any way. 
 

I agree completely. I was really bored during season four. It was not "epic" like the rest of the seasons. Maybe, because the villains were plain old humans, and maybe Riley annoyed the crap out of me. I actually began to look forward to Angel more. But certain bits such as Spike and Anya(towards the latter half) are really fun. And I kept hoping that the Big Bad would actually turn out to be Riley(you know he and Adam were "brothers") but the penultimate episode was a letdown, except for the merging and Spike. But the finale: WOW! Still trying to figure that one out.

 
 
I don't know whose idea Jasmine was; I suppose on paper the whole Angel has a son thing would have seemed very interesting, and it was when Darla was around. It was even interesting when Wesley stole Angel and gave him to Holt because he feared that Angel would kill him, because it made Wes' character, for the first time, complex and ambiguous and gave way to the whole Lilah thing. But beyond that, when Connor came back I just couldn't bring myself to invest in him.
 
I know. He really wasn't that special. i liked him more when he was a baby that entire vampire cults were after. And i loved Angel as a dad, and Lorne as an uncle. Do you remember the hilarious little nursery rhyme Lorne sings in Waiting in the Wings? I loved Darla's sacrifice and the "birth", oh and the Macbeth reference that followed- (i am so glad they didn't miss that because when I rewatched the show and  heard the no birth prophecy, Macbeth was the first thing that came into my mind.) I loved Wesley's betrayal and his entire interaction with Lilah.
 
 But Connor, as an adult, was a majorass letdown. As Fred said: "It was all for nothing." She says it about the prophecies, but thats really how I felt about Connor.
 
He was like Dawn to me, completely abhorrent, though by season 7 I had begun to like Dawn a little more.  
 

I actually like the concept of Dawn. I think since Buffy was transistioning into being an adult in Season Five, Dawn(the concept) was a good way to complete the process, by making someone dependant on her(aside from the whole world, that is). And I really enjoyed the Dawn = key and Glory plotline. I guess you probably never experienced that feeling since Gift was the first episode you saw, but for me, the "What are you doing here?" moment was incredible. I never ever saw it coming. It left me all week thinking what the hell happened here??? And making Dawn into the key managed to combine the roles of Buffy the slayer and Buffy the girl into one. Dawn is turned into Buffy's sister because Buffy is the slayer, but Buffy always protects Dawn because she is Dawn's sister, not because she is the slayer and it's her job.

 

That said, I found the actual character of Dawn distasteful. She was just plain bratty. Why are the youngest ones always depicted this way? And it bothered me that it never occurred for Dawn to sacrifice her own life after she learnt what Glory was planning to do to her, till the final moments of The Gift. But then, I guess, Dawn got to be the child on the show. And being a child gives you this incredible sense of entitlement that some grown up will take care of you. I love how in "Real Me", Dawn tells the vampires who have kidnapped her with total confidence that "touch me, and my sister will kill you."

 

I also felt that Dawn's existence tainted the earlier seasons for me. Questions such as what happened to Dawn in this alterna world in the Joyce focused episodes? When did she find out Buffy was the slayer? Every awesome moment in the earlier season is now Dawn coloured

 

Riley was Buffy's idea of "slumming it"- basically of trying one last shot at being normal, before giving up the idea completely. I think deep down she knew she couldn't really fall for him, not after Angel...and mainly she chose him because he couldn't possibly hurt her as bad as Angel did. 
 

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