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Summer3

IF-Stunnerz

Summer3

Joined: 24 September 2007

Posts: 44199

Posted: 26 May 2011 at 8:28pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by angie.4u

Originally posted by Summer3

Originally posted by K.Resurrected.

Originally posted by return_to_hades


Yes, it is very difficult to debate with people who have made up their minds. Especially when people have made up their minds that they are right and all those who contradict their righteous opinions or think differently are nothing but ignorant, disrespectful, idiots who are making up bullshit.


Stop being touchy.
Come on be nice to a ladyLOL
Stop being so discriminatory Summer .  The genders on DM are all assumptions. LOL
Guess I am either too slow or too  fashionedLOL

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K.Consciousness

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Posted: 26 May 2011 at 8:56pm | IP Logged
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_Angie_

IF-Rockerz

_Angie_

Joined: 21 February 2008

Posts: 9888

Posted: 26 May 2011 at 10:52pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by night13

Originally posted by K.Resurrected.


A statement such as "Was Gandhi right in going with his Pact with Lord Irwin and allowing the execution of Bhagat Singh, Rajguru, Sukhdev?" has the underlying assumption that Gandhi did indeed have such a pact and the only question that remains to be asked there is whether or not Gandhi was right in what he did. That is a conspiracy theory which is not substantiated by historians.

A statement such as "Gandhi's vision was too myopic and idealistic" is a personal opinion not backed by reason.

A statement such as "He could have stopped the assassination of Sukhdev, Rajguru and Bhagat singh" is a fallacy of composition. It assumes that a) Gandhi did indeed have the power to do so b) he did not try hard.

There are exceptions to free speech protection. Obscenity, defamation, incitement are a few such exceptions. When you are talking about the father of the nation, a man held in high esteem by millions for all the right reasons, you have to tread carefully with you free speech banner. A debate is not possible with those people who have already made up their minds, have come to irrelevant conclusions via argumentum ad ignorantiam, and are here only to besmirch a man loved and respected by many.  


This debate is based on personal opinions, as everyone has a right to their opinion: I respect and welcome all.

What did Gandhi leave behind except for a name! How many political leaders follow in his footsteps. His myth on abandoned nonviolent actions, and today India has the 4th largest armed force in the world. India is following in the foot steps of western countries by building economy on large scale industries on agriculture land where 80% of the mass population is still lives.

There is a thin line between whose footstep do  you follow vs just naming an individual to be a saint.

Personal opinion is one thing but when one comes to debate it is expected that the person is also  able to understand and address the opponents views! Merely hanging on to ones preconceived notions does not serve any purpose, whatsoever. I would have appreciated it if Godse's supporters had expressed their views for supporting Godse along with something to back up those views but none came out !! So I can only infer that they are simply expressing something they have been hearing repeatedly by people around them without really giving it much thought.

And what sort of argument is this about Gandhi leaving back nothing! Since the time he took up the mission to overthrow the British Rule in India and gain freedom for his country he had been working relentlessly towards it ! what leaving behind of a name are you referring to? Not Nehru's family I hope? Again a case of misplaced grudges! Gandhi's own family continues to lives in oblivion.

And how can you even compare today's politicians to Gandhi?? Confused It is most astonishing  to see that Gandhi is being expected to deliver even long after his death! It was Nehru who took reins of the country after India gained freedom. He was more pragmatic in his approach and considering the changing political scenario in the country after gaining freedom he did well to build up our defence forces. You aren't complaining about that, are you? Building our defense position and economy does not negate or belittle non violence or satyagraha principles of Gandhi. Adaptation is necessary for survival and progress. Gandhi was innovative in his approach and applied it successfully . Excluding a few of his own countrymen, the entire world today remembers him fondly . What have you to say about Godse, if anything at all ??

Not being able to follow someone's footsteps does not mean we have to assassinate that person or even belittle his contributions to our welfare! Isnt it all the more reason to appreciate what that person must have been through to accomplish what he did? Or is it that we even lack the ability to do that! Must we always find some scapegoat to pin the failures of even a miniscule part  of our dreams? Gandhi did what he had to do. Its our turn to achieve whatever dreams still remain unfulfilled!  After all Gandhi  stands  assassinated by a person who was younger, physically more fit and possibly who could have himself lived a longer and more productive life but instead chose to  place  full onus of delivering his dreams on Gandhi, killing him when he was perceived to  have failed!

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DemonStarzorrroSummer3

blue-ice

IF-Stunnerz

blue-ice

Joined: 04 March 2009

Posts: 28325

Posted: 27 May 2011 at 12:00am | IP Logged
Originally posted by night13


girl .. girl.. girl... Wink


Are you standing on the rooftop or not?

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monarSummer3

_Angie_

IF-Rockerz

_Angie_

Joined: 21 February 2008

Posts: 9888

Posted: 27 May 2011 at 12:13am | IP Logged
"There is magic in the early morning silence

 when Eternity opens her doors anew

 Before the sun awakens the sleepy clouds and birds

 taste the refreshing dew"

I got enough time on my hands today ..just noticed the lovely lines on Summer's siggy above !
 
The magic works both way
Having had good thoughts the previous nights
you wake up happy and gay
But  having worried , tossed and turned
You wake up bleary eyed

When Eternity opens her doors anew

It would be a lovely sight  indeed

To greet the sleepy clouds and birds

With a twinkle in ones eyes !



Edited by angie.4u - 27 May 2011 at 1:12am

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monar

IF-Sizzlerz

monar

Joined: 09 March 2010

Posts: 10715

Posted: 27 May 2011 at 1:34am | IP Logged
Originally posted by K.Resurrected.

Originally posted by monar

assumptions could be other way round too? I am not against father of nation but the point is why the total independence was introduced by congress after martyrdom of Three young lads?


Monar, the call for Purna Swaraj, complete independence, was made in 1929, two years before Bhagat Singn, Rajguru and Sukhdev were hung.

Originally posted by monar

The point is many were hanged many died Freedom doesn't belong to one person. Agitation started long back people were pissed off, what Gandhi ji taught us was precious but we can't deny the different factors around it. Being at right place at right time.


If I understand you right, you are incensed about people crediting Gandhi with the entire "success" behind Indian independence. To which, I would say that it looks like your resentment is misdirected at Gandhi and that you should pick up your grouse with the people who are really doing that. According to me, no person, in his/her right mind would factor out the invaluable contributions made by thousands and thousands and attribute it all to just one.

That said, the importance of leadership cannot be undervalued in such an epic, mass movement and I am willing to argue that Gandhi dwarfed everybody else when it came to uniting and leading the nation as one (and not as multiple factions/ splinter groups).

In any case, why the palpable grudge oozing out of statements like "he was at the right place at the right time"? Shouldn't you be happier that the right person was there at the right place and right time leading the nation to independence?

Originally posted by monar

that said, what are ur views on Gandhi ji's ignorance on Jinnah's 15 years old "two nation theory", how about "Maulana's warning to Gandh ji about the same?"


I admit my ignorance on Gandhi's ignorance on Jinnah's "15 year old two nation theory". If you could provide reliable links on this matter, I could bring myself up to speed.




I will reply in detail later... but what exactly you are referring as "reliable" resources?

Summer3

IF-Stunnerz

Summer3

Joined: 24 September 2007

Posts: 44199

Posted: 27 May 2011 at 1:48am | IP Logged
Originally posted by angie.4u

"There is magic in the early morning silence

 when Eternity opens her doors anew

 Before the sun awakens the sleepy clouds and birds

 taste the refreshing dew"

I got enough time on my hands today ..just noticed the lovely lines on Summer's siggy above !
 
The magic works both way
Having had good thoughts the previous nights
you wake up happy and gay
But  having worried , tossed and turned
You wake up bleary eyed

When Eternity opens her doors anew

It would be a lovely sight  indeed

To greet the sleepy clouds and birds

With a twinkle in ones eyes !

Ah Angie hope you have a good weekend.
Indeed life is not a bed of roses but we can have some moments in our lives when all cares just drop off.
 
Gandhi ji could easily have chosen peace and solitude but his inner call was too strong to serve the nation; he could not turn a deaf ear to it.
 

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zorrro

return_to_hades

IF-Veteran Member

return_to_hades

Joined: 18 January 2006

Posts: 20232

Posted: 27 May 2011 at 7:56am | IP Logged
Originally posted by persistence

Originally posted by night13

Originally posted by persistence

Originally posted by night13

Originally posted by persistence

Originally posted by night13

Originally posted by persistence

Ok, haven't read thru the entire thread, but got to say the following is debatable:

Its history and nothing is going to change the fact.


people write history; different versions can and do exist. No such thing as a "fact"...just a reality/perception. Not that this is an ontological debate. :)


As long as you don't ask me to show proof: existence of GOD!  I rather this debate falls under the category of perception. Wink
ps. Isn't perception everything!


Why would I? You are not an evolutionist and I am not an intelligent design theorist! SmileWe are only asking: What is truth/reality? In my worldview, everything is perception. A positivist/post-positivist might disagree!

Persy


To me perception is everything Tongue Those are blessed who see beautiful things in humble places where others see nothing!

Aarya.


I just realized I switched our parts in my analogy. Haha! It should be "I am no evolutionist, and you no ID theorist!

NIce name, Aarya! A Girl or a guy?ConfusedEmbarrassed


girl .. girl.. girl... Wink


I am disappointed.Embarrassed I was in the mood to flirt. LOL


Who's stopping you. Tongue

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