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What if Krishna became the charioteer of Rama? Note Pg4 (Page 2)

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..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 06 May 2011 at 7:36pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Darklord_Rehan

 
In fact Krishna discouraged people from practicing hollow rituals.
 
Really? Could you please list some incidents where Krishna did this? If that was the case, Krishna would have discouraged Yudhisthira to perform the Rajasuya Yagna, and he would not have encouraged the Gokulvaasis to worship Govardhan Parvat, which is as you might say, a mere object.
 
I agree with the part of your post that Krishna encouraged people to perform their various Dharmas according to situation, but no where in his leelas did I get the message that we should not go to temples, worship idols, or perform poojas/yagnas. Krishna himself went through the Yagnopavit sanskaar after Kans Vadh, and he followed many other rituals Hindus still observe today. Krishna was not against rituals.
 
And I think it would be better if you do not refer to traditions and rituals as senseless, as every culture and religion has them and it is what makes that culture/religion special for some people.Smile Though it may be your opinion that rituals are senseless, most (if not all) people in this forum have special traditions and rituals they observe which are very close to their heart, and they may feel hurt or affronted by such remarks. And also, many people here are also strong believers in astrology and Babas. My own father is an astrologer and my family does not believe in it blindly. We have seen the results of astrology with our own eyes and I take it offensively if people say that the rituals or beliefs I hold are blind beliefs. One cannot generalize everyone like that, and neither can they make such subjective comments. After all, we do not know what others people or why they believe it.


Edited by JanakiRaghunath - 06 May 2011 at 7:42pm

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Rehanism

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Posted: 06 May 2011 at 8:12pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

Originally posted by Darklord_Rehan

 
In fact Krishna discouraged people from practicing hollow rituals.
 
Really? Could you please list some incidents where Krishna did this? If that was the case, Krishna would have discouraged Yudhisthira to perform the Rajasuya Yagna, and he would not have encouraged the Gokulvaasis to worship Govardhan Parvat, which is as you might say, a mere object.
 
I agree with the part of your post that Krishna encouraged people to perform their various Dharmas according to situation, but no where in his leelas did I get the message that we should not go to temples, worship idols, or perform poojas/yagnas. Krishna himself went through the Yagnopavit sanskaar after Kans Vadh, and he followed many other rituals Hindus still observe today. Krishna was not against rituals.
 
And I think it would be better if you do not

The Rajsuya Yagya was a political card to establish Yudhishtir's reign, liberate Shishupal, stir Duryodhan's envy and sow the seeds for Kurukshetra war. It had got nothing to do with religious practices. Krishna, the Supreme Benefactor, Himself was present with Yudhishtir with His blessings. So why do you think that He would ask Yudhishtir to offer prayers to the Demi Gods?

In the Govardhan Vandana, Krishna stopped the Gokul Vasis from the traditional worshiping of Indra and asked them to worship the Govardhan as it was the source of their income. It gave them food, shelter and protected them from natural calamities and gave everything unconditionally. Besides he wished to teach the Demi Gods a lesson. So I think in this occasion he did oppose the rituals.

In Bhagwat Gita, Krishna clearly says that man gets deviated from the path of Dharma by blindly following social customs and traditions. Blind faith it self is the greatest Adharma. He has always asked us to use logic and intellect to guide our actions.

And why do we even need to go to temple. Krishna is in every matter, every particle. Krishna is in us. So why do we need to exclusively worship a stone idol with all sorts of rituals to please Him? Isn't it better to worship ourselves through righteous actions rather than vague worldly rituals which are different and even contradictory for every religion and every community?

As for the last advice - stay assured I'll never breed any blind faith in myself. I shall continue to believe and obey only those practices which makes sense to my mind and discard the rest. Blindly believing in rituals and practices without questioning their relevance, just because everyone does so, is Adharma. Gautam Buddha himself discarded all religions and religious rituals, shunned the fraud Brahmins and asked people to stop praying to deities and opposed Idol Worshiping. He said the same thing which Krishna had said - Nishkaam Karma is the only way to Nirvana. And that makes more sense to me than those myriad rituals and traditions practiced all over the world.

By the way, you didn't elaborate about your displeasure with Westernization?Smile


Edited by Darklord_Rehan - 06 May 2011 at 8:16pm

Debipriya

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Posted: 06 May 2011 at 8:48pm | IP Logged
@Rehan, One of the most important point made in Geeta is about- 'Respect/ Shraddha'. If we have 'Respect' for the Lord, we would definitely Respect the Creation as well as the various  'WAYS'  which lead us towards the Lord. 'Worshipping' is such a 'Way', which leads us there. I would say that any 'Sincere Offering' towards the Lord, can be called a Ritual. And that is definitely better than mechanically following the rituals without realising their 'essence'


But, in Geeta Shri Krishna also tells that many many many people are there, who are not 'aware' about the subtlety of Dharma, so they will be completely lost without the guidelines of religious Rituals. These rituals make them stick to the 'Dharma Path', th'  they are not aware of it sometimes. So these Rituals help the common man to 'connect' with the Lord
 


Another point I want to make is Geeta also tells us about Devotion, without which a person can never be able to 'Realise' the Lord! If we are Devoted, then any action which focuses on the Lord, will be Loved by us. (- Just adding a bit with the first point).



'Karma' is undoubtedly the most important aspect of our life, without which, life is not possible, but without 'Respects/ Devotion/ Humility'- 'Karma' is only an expression of the 'Ego' of the person performing it. It is only when we Realise that we are only an agent and it is the Lord who is doing the 'karma' thr' us, then we bow down to Him and feel Happy in every single action taken towards the Lord, be it Puja of any murti ('Sakaar Bhakti') or doing something about the Welfare of the common people/ Nature ('Nirakaar Bhakti'). Without these 'realisations' 'Karma' is not complete, which means, that 'Karma' is not performed in the 'True Sense',  the way Lord wants us to perform Karma.

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Rehanism

Rehanism

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Posted: 06 May 2011 at 8:58pm | IP Logged
Exactly Debipriya.That is what I want to say. Why do we even consider Krishna separate from ourselves? He is very much embedded within us. So I don't find any logic in going to temple/mosque/church to please him.

There were many Unrighteous persons who religiously prayed to the Lord, followed rituals, read scriptures, sang Aartis and yet the Lord was never pleased with them and manifested to bring them down. Hiranyakashyap, Ravan, Jarasandh, Karna, Duryodhan etc were the greatest examples.

So that proves that only Righteous Karma makes us close to Krishna and not prayers or religious rituals.


Edited by Darklord_Rehan - 06 May 2011 at 9:24pm

Debipriya

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Posted: 06 May 2011 at 9:42pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Darklord_Rehan

Exactly Debipriya.That is what I want to say. Why do we even consider Krishna separate from ourselves? He is very much embedded within us. 

Krishna is not separate form us, he is 'Within' us. If we become 'aware' of His presence in 'this very self', then only we can 'truly explore' all the 'Potentials' of this 'Human Birth'.  But realising Krishna has many many more facets other than just 'Righteous Karma'. It also has the Compassion, Humility, Love and ability to Forgive and Relate' to all the beings of the Universe be it animate or inanimate. Actually, we cannot describe ALL the characteristics of the Lord as He is 'Gunaateet'.




So I don't find any logic in going to temple/mosque/church to please him. 

We go to church/ mosque/ temples not only to worship Him, we also go there because we feel Happy to remain close to the Lord, to feel the Bliss of Devotion again and again.




There were many Unrighteous persons who religiously prayed to the Lord, followed rituals, read scriptures, sang Aartis and yet the Lord was never pleased with them and manifested to bring them down. Hiranyakashyap, Ravan, Jarasandh, Karna, Duryodhan etc were the greatest examples.

So that proves that only Righteous Karma makes us close to Krishna and not prayers or religious rituals.


As for unrighteous people doing religious activities- it is there in the first sc of RS R, that they all will get the 'fruit of their penance' acc to 'Karm ka vidhaan'. But since they are not in the right path, they will perish at the end. 


So we cannot compare an innocent/ common person doing puja, with that of any unrighteous peron like Raavan, Hiranyakashipu. Common people, who are busy with his / her life, perform puja to keep his/ her family happy, to ask for the grace of the Lord in their daily life- the 'fruits' they ask in return of their daily pujas are very very different fom the way the second group, who always has some 'Personal' (rather 'Selfish') motive, which is definitely  against the rules of the 'Srishti Charka'. That is the reason of their destruction


Karma is definitely important, but the 'mindset' while doing karma is also very very important. There is nothing wrong in religiuos rituals or prayers as long as they are for the purpose of the Welfare of the Masses/ the Whole Creation or if they are the expression of  'Sincere Love' coming  from the heart of a Devotee. And as for a Devotees, there remains nothing more to ask from the Lord, as they already have the most precious element in them by God's grace- that is 'Bhakti'.

Rehanism

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Posted: 06 May 2011 at 10:33pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Debipriya

Originally posted by Darklord_Rehan

Exactly Debipriya.That is what I want to say. Why do we even consider Krishna separate from ourselves? He is very much embedded within us. 

Krishna is not separate form us, he is 'Within' us. If we become 'aware' of His presence in 'this very self', then only we can 'truly explore' all the 'Potentials' of this 'Human Birth'.  But realising Krishna has many many more facets other than just 'Righteous Karma'. It also has the Compassion, Humility, Love and ability to Forgive and Relate' to all the beings of the Universe be it animate or inanimate. Actually, we cannot describe ALL the characteristics of the Lord as He is 'Gunaateet'.

Compassion, humility, love, forgiveness - everything is a part of Karma. That is why I didn't bother to mention them separately. 



So I don't find any logic in going to temple/mosque/church to please him. 

We go to church/ mosque/ temples not only to worship Him, we also go there because we feel Happy to remain close to the Lord, to feel the Bliss of Devotion again and again.

I think here you are contradicting yourself. You said Krishna is within us. So He's 'close' to us even if we are miles away from temples or so called religious places. Can one be away from his own heart?
As for happiness, it can be gained only through righteous action without fearing about consequences. Only a Karma Yogi / righteous man is truly happy. He's neither elated in success nor dismayed in defeat. Because he doesn't care about results. God is neither good nor bad. His form and nature is merely a reflection of our own actions.



There were many Unrighteous persons who religiously prayed to the Lord, followed rituals, read scriptures, sang Aartis and yet the Lord was never pleased with them and manifested to bring them down. Hiranyakashyap, Ravan, Jarasandh, Karna, Duryodhan etc were the greatest examples.

So that proves that only Righteous Karma makes us close to Krishna and not prayers or religious rituals.


As for unrighteous people doing religious activities- it is there in the first sc of RS R, that they all will get the 'fruit of their penance' acc to 'Karm ka vidhaan'. But since they are not in the right path, they will perish at the end. 


So we cannot compare an innocent/ common person doing puja, with that of any unrighteous peron like Raavan, Hiranyakashipu. Common people, who are busy with his / her life, perform puja to keep his/ her family happy, to ask for the grace of the Lord in their daily life- the 'fruits' they ask in return of their daily pujas are very very different fom the way the second group, who always has some 'Personal' (rather 'Selfish') motive, which is definitely  against the rules of the 'Srishti Charka'. That is the reason of their destruction

Even the 'common people' pray to God with selfish motives - for personal gain in form of wealth, riches, pleasure, success etc. Nobody would even care to turn to Gods if they are told that they would get nothing of the above in return. Why do businessmen worship Lakshmi and Ganesh? For wealth. Why do students pray to Saraswati? For passing exams. Why do wrestlers pray to Hanuman? For victory. Why do we worship Shiva, Vishnu and Durga? For personal worldly gains. Why do people go to Babaas and Astrologers and pay them thousands? For knowing what lies in future. So that clearly shows that everybody is interested in Karma Phal and not Karma itself. Isn't that against Krishna's principles? How can Krishna be pleased with such people?

Gautam Buddha discarded all religious texts and rituals. He opposed idol worship. He asked people to stop going to temples and pilgrimage and paying tributes to Brahmins and astrologers. Because he saw through the hollowness of these practices. And perhaps that is why He's called the Enlightened One. God and Science are in no way different and none can be confined into rituals and traditions. Both are infinite and absolute and can be understood in true essence only through intellect and not blind faith.

Karma is definitely important, but the 'mindset' while doing karma is also very very important. There is nothing wrong in religiuos rituals or prayers as long as they are for the purpose of the Welfare of the Masses/ the Whole Creation or if they are the expression of  'Sincere Love' coming  from the heart of a Devotee. And as for a Devotees, there remains nothing more to ask from the Lord, as they already have the most precious element in them by God's grace- that is 'Bhakti'.

Debipriya

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Debipriya

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Posted: 07 May 2011 at 1:36am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Darklord_Rehan



The Rajsuya Yagya was a political card to establish Yudhishtir's reign, liberate Shishupal, stir Duryodhan's envy and sow the seeds for Kurukshetra war. It had got nothing to do with religious practices. Krishna, the Supreme Benefactor, Himself was present with Yudhishtir with His blessings. So why do you think that He would ask Yudhishtir to offer prayers to the Demi Gods?

It was a political card- yes, but  the element of Dharma was an inseparable part of it. We can never forget that in spite of Himself being with the Pandavas, (as you have mentioned), Krishna wanted each of their actions to be in the 'righteous' (rather 'exemplary') path. So a 'Dharmik Anushthaan' was necessary, to express their Gratefulness to the Lord and to Sacrifice what they already have to get something more (essence of  'yagna') .

In the Govardhan Vandana, Krishna stopped the Gokul Vasis from the traditional worshiping of Indra and asked them to worship the Govardhan as it was the source of their income. It gave them food, shelter and protected them from natural calamities and gave everything unconditionally. Besides he wished to teach the Demi Gods a lesson. So I think in this occasion he did oppose the rituals.

But the main point is that He encouraged them to 'worship' Govardhan Parvat, instead of Indra. The element 'worship' is common in both case. Krishna never says that worshiping is wrong. What He did was 'broadening the Visions' of the Gokulvaasis, so that they can 'perceive'  the Lord in Nature (i.e.- around them), thus they will be able to Appreciate and Value the all gifts of Nature and will be Grateful for that. 

The part of 'Indra mann Bhang' was another aspect of this story. It was done for the sake of Indra. It is relevant from the POV of Indra.  In Govardhan Pravat incident, Krishna never opposed the idea of Worshipping but he opposed the idea of 'blessings in exchange of worshipping' (WRT- Indra). He made Indra aware of his responsibilities, with/ without receiving pujas from the common people.



In Bhagwat Gita, Krishna clearly says that man gets deviated from the path of Dharma by blindly following social customs and traditions. Blind faith it self is the greatest Adharma. He has always asked us to use logic and intellect to guide our actions.


Well, as much I have understood Geeta, I want to say that- 'True Knowledge' / 'Vivek' always shows us the right way, which is the way of the 'Dharma'. And it can never oppose 'worshipping',  be it 'outside' ( that is- 'puja paath') or 'within the individual' where he remains connected with the Lord in each moment of his life.


And why do we even need to go to temple. Krishna is in every matter, every particle. Krishna is in us. So why do we need to exclusively worship a stone idol with all sorts of rituals to please Him? Isn't it better to worship ourselves through righteous actions rather than vague worldly rituals which are different and even contradictory for every religion and every community?

...Nishkaam Karma is the only way to Nirvana. And that makes more sense to me than those myriad rituals and traditions practiced all over the world.


Here again we have that 'Sakaar-Nirakaar' philosophies. Some persons 'actually perceive' the Lord in those idols, and some do not see Him there. It depends on the 'state of realisation'  that person is in at that moment. And both the visions are right in ref to their POVs. Who are we to conclude that those rituals are vague? Have we gone thr' the same 'Feelings/ Realisations' those persons go thr' while doing the Puja? Who says that this viewpoint is correct and that one is not? Only because we do not feel the same way should never be the reason for us to reject any idea/ concept. Those rituals make sense to some people (sincere devotees) and they find Bliss/ Happiness thr' them, so why prevent them from doing so?

For reference, here are some videos from the Geeta episodes of 'Shri Krishna' about these concepts:




Debipriya

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Posted: 07 May 2011 at 1:38am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Darklord_Rehan

Originally posted by Debipriya

Originally posted by Darklord_Rehan

Exactly Debipriya.That is what I want to say. Why do we even consider Krishna separate from ourselves? He is very much embedded within us. 

Krishna is not separate form us, he is 'Within' us. If we become 'aware' of His presence in 'this very self', then only we can 'truly explore' all the 'Potentials' of this 'Human Birth'.  But realising Krishna has many many more facets other than just 'Righteous Karma'. It also has the Compassion, Humility, Love and ability to Forgive and Relate' to all the beings of the Universe be it animate or inanimate. Actually, we cannot describe ALL the characteristics of the Lord as He is 'Gunaateet'.

Compassion, humility, love, forgiveness - everything is a part of Karma. That is why I didn't bother to mention them separately. 



So I don't find any logic in going to temple/mosque/church to please him. 

We go to church/ mosque/ temples not only to worship Him, we also go there because we feel Happy to remain close to the Lord, to feel the Bliss of Devotion again and again.

I think here you are contradicting yourself. You said Krishna is within us. So He's 'close' to us even if we are miles away from temples or so called religious places. Can one be away from his own heart? 


Here I was referring to both 'Adwait' and 'Dwait' concepts in my post. The persons who feel him 'inside' (feel 'ekaatma' with the Lord) and the persons who feel themselves 'different' from the Lord (and worship Him)- derive the same kind of Bliss. Both the paths/ approaches are correct and lead us to the same destination


As for happiness, it can be gained only through righteous action without fearing about consequences. Only a Karma Yogi / righteous man is truly happy. He's neither elated in success nor dismayed in defeat. Because he doesn't care about results. God is neither good nor bad. His form and nature is merely a reflection of our own actions.




There were many Unrighteous persons who religiously prayed to the Lord, followed rituals, read scriptures, sang Aartis and yet the Lord was never pleased with them and manifested to bring them down. Hiranyakashyap, Ravan, Jarasandh, Karna, Duryodhan etc were the greatest examples.

So that proves that only Righteous Karma makes us close to Krishna and not prayers or religious rituals.


As for unrighteous people doing religious activities- it is there in the first sc of RS R, that they all will get the 'fruit of their penance' acc to 'Karm ka vidhaan'. But since they are not in the right path, they will perish at the end. 


So we cannot compare an innocent/ common person doing puja, with that of any unrighteous peron like Raavan, Hiranyakashipu. Common people, who are busy with his / her life, perform puja to keep his/ her family happy, to ask for the grace of the Lord in their daily life- the 'fruits' they ask in return of their daily pujas are very very different fom the way the second group, who always has some 'Personal' (rather 'Selfish') motive, which is definitely  against the rules of the 'Srishti Charka'. That is the reason of their destruction

Even the 'common people' pray to God with selfish motives - for personal gain in form of wealth, riches, pleasure, success etc. Nobody would even care to turn to Gods if they are told that they would get nothing of the above in return. Why do businessmen worship Lakshmi and Ganesh? For wealth. Why do students pray to Saraswati? For passing exams. Why do wrestlers pray to Hanuman? For victory. Why do we worship Shiva, Vishnu and Durga? For personal worldly gains. Why do people go to Babaas and Astrologers and pay them thousands? For knowing what lies in future. So that clearly shows that everybody is interested in Karma Phal and not Karma itself. Isn't that against Krishna's principles? How can Krishna be pleased with such people?

Well, actually I wanted to stress the Extent/ Outcome of the fruits of action in both the cases. Just compare a common person's prayers along with the prayer of Raavan, (which is completely self centered, evil and opposed to the 'Rules of the Creation').

But yes, people are Initially interested in the 'results' of their Karma. But that is only a phase in the 'Journey of the Soul'. We should remember that we all have the 'Vivek'  in us which guides us in all situations. When we reach a particular point, we achieve something, then it makes us think whether we actually wanted that, whether that brought us 'Happiness', whether we achieved the 'Fulfilment' with that object or not. When the answer is 'no', them we start all over again. This goes on and on... after doing such penances in many many births,  the 'Aatma' recognises the Lord and then starts the 'actual' spiritual journey. Now it becomes 'aware' of the journey and wants 'nothing' in exchange of its Devotion.


Gautam Buddha discarded all religious texts and rituals. He opposed idol worship. He asked people to stop going to temples and pilgrimage and paying tributes to Brahmins and astrologers. Because he saw through the hollowness of these practices. And perhaps that is why He's called the Enlightened One. God and Science are in no way different and none can be confined into rituals and traditions. Both are infinite and absolute and can be understood in true essence only through intellect and not blind faith.

Karma is definitely important, but the 'mindset' while doing karma is also very very important. There is nothing wrong in religiuos rituals or prayers as long as they are for the purpose of the Welfare of the Masses/ the Whole Creation or if they are the expression of  'Sincere Love' coming  from the heart of a Devotee. And as for a Devotees, there remains nothing more to ask from the Lord, as they already have the most precious element in them by God's grace- that is 'Bhakti'.



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