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What if Krishna became the charioteer of Rama? Note Pg4

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Posted: 05 May 2011 at 4:53pm | IP Logged

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Posted: 05 May 2011 at 6:08pm | IP Logged
Welcome back Srujan! Thank you so much for sharing this very thought provoking article (with extra emphasis on "provoking" Tongue). As can be inferred from the disclaimer, the bhakt in me wants to give the author a solid chamaat for making Shri Ram sound like such a pushover and Shri Krishna so insensitive. But in its essence, it's a pretty common sense fact the entry illustrates - different times call for different measures, and as values change with the times, the old values sound arcane and impractical. This is the difference of a whole yuga the author speaks of; nowadays we may even find the laws and customs from 30-40 years laughable or aggravating. The one point I found really interesting and possibly innovative is right at the end where he speaks of the web of Maya - can that be interpreted as saying that the temptations of Maya are what cause the increased flexibility of values as time progresses? Do we get more "open-minded" because we simply don't have the strength to hold onto old values in the face of new temptations? Is it all about convenience? If that's the note the author ends on, then it's a total curveball in favor of the Treta approach. But in the arguments throughout the body of the article the obvious winner is Dwaapar. I think I'd be most comfortable reading it as a neutral commentary on how values change over time and given that the yardstick is so different, we can't be certain in our judgements of the actions from those times now in Kaliyug. I'll be back with more, I think, until then looking forward to everyone else's interpretations/justifications/objections.

Edited by lola610 - 05 May 2011 at 8:18pm

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Posted: 05 May 2011 at 8:19pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by lola610

Welcome back Srujan! Thank you do
 As can b inferred from the disclaimer, the bhakt in me wants to give the author a solid chamaat for making Shri Ram sound like such a pushover and Shri Krishna so insensitive.
 
Haha, that was my initial reaction too.LOL Ram was never that much of a pushover...in fact, he was not a pushover at all (his whole Yudh with Ravan prooves this), while Krishna was far from insensitive.
 
But I do understand the intention of the author, and though I don't at all agree with his POV that Krishna's approach to Dharma was the right path for Treta Yug and Ram was going about it the wrong way, some of his points were expressed well. The main fact is that Ram was perfect for Treta Yug and Krishna was perfect for Dwapar, but neither would be 'acceptable' today in the Kali Yug because people have more westernized views on things that don't flow with either Krishna or Ram's principles. Each day and age has its own ideal model, and it falls to us to merge Ram and Krishna's discources on Dharma to make our lives more liveable in the Kali Yug. Each by himself would not work.

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Posted: 05 May 2011 at 10:17pm | IP Logged
I liked that original article - wasn't remotely offended.  I actually agree w/ it as well.  Granted, Rama was no pushover nor was Krishna insensitive, but there are occasions when hard truths need to be told, and I guess the authors composed it to be this way.

I think another worthy idea would have been Rama and Sita on the throne in Ayodhya (or Mathura), and having as his courtiers not only Lakshman, Bharat, Sumantra, Guha, et al, but also Krishna, Balaram, Satyaki, Yudhisthir, Karna, Bhima, Arjun, et al there.  A good convo here would have been Rama trying to lay down what an ideal marriage should be, while Krishna returns to him after his conquest of Narakasura, and them discussing his marriage to Narakasura's 16,100 wives, and whether that was the best thing for them or not.  Rama & Krishna can then have a long exchange about the pros & cons of polygamy LOL and have everyone else, including the womenfolk - Sita, Satyabhama, Rukmini, Draupadi, Radha, et al join in.

Or Rama trying to oversee the differences b/w the Vrishnis and the Andhakas - and having the advantage of being neither.  Discuss w/ Krishna the concept of 'Conflict of interests'.  Then the question of Sita's exile comes up, and Krishna tells Rama that he can't be the one ruling on that, since he has a conflict of interests, and won't come out of it looking unbiased.  Then Krishna comes up w/ a decision/solution that both Rama/Sita and the citizens have to accept.  Or better still, let Krishna tackle the whole concept of creating a utopian society where each and every citizen has to be happy.


Edited by _Vrish_ - 05 May 2011 at 10:24pm

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Posted: 05 May 2011 at 10:49pm | IP Logged
OMG, such khatarnaak fanfic ideas you have, Vrish LOL Don't know whether I should say God save us from having to read those, or someone save God Stern Smile Seriously speaking though, I didn't find it real offensive once I reached the conclusion that the author did not intend to satirize these characters - he merely wanted to point out the difference between the way of thinking that we find in the overall epics and used Ram and Shyam as emblems to embody those ways of thinking. In the Ramayan, characters acted upon one dharma or one loyalty at a time - when Ram was being Ram the son, Ram the warrior didn't interfere (as this article would've liked him to)... when Sita was being Sita the wife, Sita the daughter-in-law was not on her mind... Lakshman as brother vs/ Lakshman as husband never arose as a conflict because he was only considering one duty at a time. Uttar Kand can be categorized in much the same way but that's a jumbo topic of its own that's been done all over the place so I'll skip it in this list... but basically everyone from Ramayan fits the bill as that's just how things were then. In Dwaapar people actually did weigh multiple duties against one another and sometimes became conflicted, just like Arjun before the Gita, or in Krishna's case had a clear and stable enough mind to come up with a middle ground. I think the choice examples I gave lend themselves to the conclusion it's tough to choose which approach is the better one since it depends on the situation and the character's other... characteristics.


Edited by lola610 - 05 May 2011 at 11:10pm

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Posted: 05 May 2011 at 11:45pm | IP Logged
In the context of Krishna reminding Rama to abide by his duties as a kshatriya, this portion looked totally out of place, and is the only part I disagree:
"I know yet another way too. If I were you, I will use some tricks to make every one else to wage the war against Ravana on my behalf and I will just enjoy the scenario at the warfront sitting pretty as a charioteer without lifting a weapon!" saying this in a whisper, he laughed aloud.

In fact, Rama could have reminded Krishna of how he had defeated or killed unmatched enemies like Kamsa, Jarasandha, Narakasura, Shalva, Banasura and many others, and asked him how he could have just been a charioteer when he was a kshatriya, not a sarathy.  In fact, the above cited portion is not even accurate - the bulk of warriors who fought on the Kaurava side weren't even his enemies.  Bhagadatta, for instance, was someone he had enthroned after killing Narakasura.  Duryodhan's daughter was his bahu via Samba.  Kritavarma was one of his kinsmen.  In fact, Krishna's entire Shamshaptaka army fought on the Kaurava side.  Rama could have asked him what's he doing giving his army to the side he wants to see defeated.  That's not logically done when one is planning a war.

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Posted: 06 May 2011 at 3:55pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by lola610

Welcome back Srujan! Thank you so much for sharing this very thought provoking article (with extra emphasis on "provoking" Tongue). As can be inferred from the disclaimer, the bhakt in me wants to give the author a solid chamaat for making Shri Ram sound like such a pushover and Shri Krishna so insensitive. But in its essence, it's a pretty common sense fact the entry illustrates - different times call for different measures, and as values change with the times, the old values sound arcane and impractical. This is the difference of a whole yuga the author speaks of; nowadays we may even find the laws and customs from 30-40 years laughable or aggravating. The one point I found really interesting and possibly innovative is right at the end where he speaks of the web of Maya - can that be interpreted as saying that the temptations of Maya are what cause the increased flexibility of values as time progresses? Do we get more "open-minded" because we simply don't have the strength to hold onto old values in the face of new temptations? Is it all about convenience? If that's the note the author ends on, then it's a total curveball in favor of the Treta approach. But in the arguments throughout the body of the article the obvious winner is Dwaapar. I think I'd be most comfortable reading it as a neutral commentary on how values change over time and given that the yardstick is so different, we can't be certain in our judgements of the actions from those times now in Kaliyug. I'll be back with more, I think, until then looking forward to everyone else's interpretations/justifications/objections.


Thanks Lola for your appreciation!!!!!!

Indeed it is a good article illustrating the differences in time. Smile

I wanted to emphasize that Krishna and Rama were both correct in different points of time even though their approaches/actions are so conspicuously different!!!!!!



It is not a question of having strength to hold on to values but it is a question of if the values are needed in this era! If so to what extent and how?

It is an evaluation of how values are differing with lapse of time and so on.


Edited by esrujan - 07 May 2011 at 3:27pm
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Posted: 06 May 2011 at 7:07pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

Originally posted by lola610

Welcome back Srujan! Thank you do
 As can b inferred from the disclaimer, the bhakt in me wants to give the author a solid chamaat for making Shri Ram sound like such a pushover and Shri Krishna so insensitive.
 
Haha, that was my initial reaction too.LOL Ram was never that much of a pushover...in fact, he was not a pushover at all (his whole Yudh with Ravan prooves this), while Krishna was far from insensitive.
 
But I do understand the intention of the author, and though I don't at all agree with his POV that Krishna's approach to Dharma was the right path for Treta Yug and Ram was going about it the wrong way, some of his points were expressed well. The main fact is that Ram was perfect for Treta Yug and Krishna was perfect for Dwapar, but neither would be 'acceptable' today in the Kali Yug because people have more westernized views on things that don't flow with either Krishna or Ram's principles. Each day and age has its own ideal model, and it falls to us to merge Ram and Krishna's discources on Dharma to make our lives more liveable in the Kali Yug. Each by himself would not work.

Agree with you partly, but what has westernization got to do with this? Is Krishna only the God of Indians? Isn't He the lord of the universe? So His words as well are universal just as He is. Religions differ from each other in terms of traditions, customs and rituals - but Krishna's principles has got nothing to do with any rituals/practices. In fact Krishna discouraged people from practicing hollow rituals. Krishna's Dharma is based on Karma which itself is unchanging and eternal and irrespective of one's faith/nationality/lifestyle.

I myself don't go to temples or bow my head before stone idols or follow any tradition as such. I have always opposed senseless traditions which people blindly follow, I have shunned people for venerating the Miracle Babaas and Astrologers, I have even gone against my family and refused to wear the Sacred Thread which is a mark of Brahmins. Because I have never understood the meaning of all these things. You can even call me an Atheist/Naastik if you wish to - most people in my own family does so! I wear western clothes because I feel more comfortable in them; listen western as well as Hindi music; prefer western/non-Indian cuisine most of the time, but still I think I am on the path which Krishna showed us.

Krishna's Dharma is eternal and for all ages, if we properly understand the meaning of it. Its us who try to confine Krishna in temples and pilgrims and believe that we are devotees of Krishna because we chant His name all day or dutifully worship Him. Krishna has never asked anyone to erect His temples or chant His name or sing bhajans. Karma is the only way of worshiping Krishna, whether you live in Eastern lifestyle or Western. If your actions are directed by your conscience and judged by coherence and reasons then only you are a true devotee of Krishna.

So I think Krishna's words hold true even in Kali Yuga.Tongue


Edited by Darklord_Rehan - 06 May 2011 at 7:21pm

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