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|| Mythological Masti :: Doubts & Discussions || (Page 5)

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..RamKiJanaki..

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..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 8:11pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by lola610

A question of my own - anybody know the source of the story we get in ASR, when Shri Ram enters Mata Kaikeyi's chamber first upon returning to Ayodhya and gives everyone a big surprise by revealing that her hand in his exile was really all for the best? He mentions that during her youth, her dad's kingdom was tormented by Ravan's grandfather Sumaali and his demonic associates, and she made a vow that she would somehow or the other cause his downfall. Something like that. I really liked that revelation because of the redemptive aspect of it, very comforting thought.
 
Great explanation about Vaman avatar and Indrapad, Lola!Clap In my opinion, the Devas can be great examples in many stories, but the ultimate ideal of Dharma is the Trimurti: Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva, and Lakshmi, Parvathi, and Saraswati. So instead of looking up to the Devas for Dharma, we should analyze their actions in stories based on the laws laid down by Shri Hari, Ishvar, and Brahma. But then again, there are a lot of Devas who were more noble than Indra my opinion, like Vayu, Agni, etc. I mean no offense to Indra, as I don't wish to invoke the wrath of any Deva during Finals weekLOL, but he did have a tad bit too many mistakes for someone who should be displaying ideal behavior.
 
As for your ASR story, I have no clue which source the story came from, but this story is very familiar to me. My grandmother used to tell it to me when she told me the story of Ramayana in my childhood, how everyone dislikes Kaikeyi and blames her for Ram's vanvaas, but how she had an important role in the destruction of Ravan and Ram was grateful to her for it. She even told me that Kaikeyi knew about Ram being Vishnu, and that Manthara's words had never had an effect on her. She had only acted like they did because it gave her an opportunity to extract revenge on Ravan and bring Ram closer to the purpose of his avatar. Though it had pained her that this all caused Dashrath's death and the separation from her son, she sacrificed her happiness for the sake of Dharma sansthaapan.
 
This story really exalts Kaikeyi greatly, doesn't it?Day Dreaming

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Posted: 03 May 2011 at 9:52pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by lola610


A question of my own - anybody know the source of the story we get in ASR, when Shri Ram enters Mata Kaikeyi's chamber first upon returning to Ayodhya and gives everyone a big surprise by revealing that her hand in his exile was really all for the best? He mentions that during her youth, her dad's kingdom was tormented by Ravan's grandfather Sumaali and his demonic associates, and she made a vow that she would somehow or the other cause his downfall. Something like that. I really liked that revelation because of the redemptive aspect of it, very comforting thought.

lola

None of this is there in Valmiki, so it might be worth looking for some of this in the Ananda Ramayan.  I recall there was some threads in the Ramayan forum that point to the sources AS used:

Sagars sources for Gurmi Ramayan
Versions of Uttarkand
DOTW: Stories from Uttarkhand

There are probably a lot more threads, but these are the ones I'd start from.

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Posted: 05 May 2011 at 10:57pm | IP Logged
^^ Thanks a ton for the links Vrish, I remember browsing through those threads during my silent member days... really interesting stuff! So far I haven't found that particular story yet, but since Ananda Ramayan's the one that had Kaikeyi as the culprit behind Sita's vanvaas via the "draw me Ravan" story, I don't think it would be in there... why justify Kaikeyi's role in the first vanvaas and then make her the culprit again for the 2nd? Will keep reading through them though, there really is some intriguing stuff so thanks once again for sharing. Btw any idea if is Khalrika still active? If you're in touch with her please do ask her to join us again, doesn't look like a doubts and discussions thread is complete without her!


Edited by lola610 - 05 May 2011 at 11:03pm

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Posted: 06 May 2011 at 12:03am | IP Logged
I think Khalrika is inactive, but you can PM her to find out.  Vibs would be great here as well if she's still browsing these pages.

That whole story is inaccurate, as when Kaikeyi was Dasharath's charioteer (in the serial, they wrongly showed Sumantra as being present, but in that battle, Kaikeyi was the one who insisted on accompanying Dasharath and being his charioteer), he was battling not Ravan, but an asura named Shambara.  So it's inconceivable that Kaikeyi knew about this higher purpose.  The only Ayodhya rulers that Ravan fought were Mandhata, w/ whom he had a stalemate since Ravan's brahmastra & Mandhata's trishul (a derivative of Mahadev's) came head to head and threatened to obliterate all creation, so Brahma got them to withdraw these, and granted that neither of them was defeated.  The other Ayodhya ruler Ravan fought and killed was Aranya, who cursed him that someone from his dynasty will kill Ravan.

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..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 06 May 2011 at 4:03am | IP Logged
^ I read a story from another version where Ravan battles Dashrath as well. It had nothing about Kaikeyi in it, but it did alude to the ASR story that Ravan had insulted Kaikeyi's kingdom before coming there, and that he had been cursed by someone there as a result (Kaikeyi perhaps?). In this story, Ravan insults Kaushalya by telling her to come to Lanka as its queen, and he indicates his thigh to her (kind of like how Duryodhan did to Draupadi), and Kaushalya vows that the son born to her and Dashrath will kill him to avenge this insult.
 
I'll try to find this story...it would help though if I knew where it came from.

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Posted: 07 May 2011 at 9:46pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

^ I read a story from another version where Ravan battles Dashrath as well. It had nothing about Kaikeyi in it, but it did alude to the ASR story that Ravan had insulted Kaikeyi's kingdom before coming there, and that he had been cursed by someone there as a result (Kaikeyi perhaps?). In this story, Ravan insults Kaushalya by telling her to come to Lanka as its queen, and he indicates his thigh to her (kind of like how Duryodhan did to Draupadi), and Kaushalya vows that the son born to her and Dashrath will kill him to avenge this insult.
 
I'll try to find this story...it would help though if I knew where it came from.

wow.. from where are these stories coming from?? from authentic sources? I actually never heard of such thing ..always thought that it was lord vishnu who was behind everything and always devs had problem with growing asurs and they visit lord vishnu which results into vishnu's another incarnation :) simple theory ;)

Janki ji, I would love to read more about what you posted ..


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Posted: 07 May 2011 at 11:06pm | IP Logged
jaisiyaram

Personally, as far as Ramayan goes, the only account I believe is Valmiki - nothing else is authentic, particularly if it contradicts VR.  But on pg 1, we did make a rule that we'd only comment on which sources any account comes from, w/o commenting on whether it's authentic or not, in order to avoid people's religious beliefs being offended.  None of the accounts above - whether it was Ravan getting Dasharath cursed that he won't be able to physically produce any children in his wives, nor the AS Ramayan of Dasharath battling Ravan w/ Kaikeyi present - are in Valmiki - just so one knows.

In the Uttarkand part of VR, Agastya and other rishis narrate to Rama the entire history of Ravan, and there, the story of his battle w/ Aranya is narrated.  Again, in Uttarkand, when Rishi Chyavan goes to Rama for support in killing Lavanasura, he narrates to Rama or Shatrughan - I forget whom - how Lavanasura killed Mandhata, who in turn had previously been undefeated by Ravan.  So there are indirect references in VR to these battles Ravan had w/ Rama's ancestors.  But there is nothing there about Ravan ever battling Dasharath.

There are other sources which might have such accounts, and I myself would be interested in knowing which ones they are.

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Posted: 10 May 2011 at 10:44am | IP Logged
Originally posted by jaisiyaram

Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

^ I read a story from another version where Ravan battles Dashrath as well. It had nothing about Kaikeyi in it, but it did alude to the ASR story that Ravan had insulted Kaikeyi's kingdom before coming there, and that he had been cursed by someone there as a result (Kaikeyi perhaps?). In this story, Ravan insults Kaushalya by telling her to come to Lanka as its queen, and he indicates his thigh to her (kind of like how Duryodhan did to Draupadi), and Kaushalya vows that the son born to her and Dashrath will kill him to avenge this insult.
 
I'll try to find this story...it would help though if I knew where it came from.

wow.. from where are these stories coming from?? from authentic sources? I actually never heard of such thing ..always thought that it was lord vishnu who was behind everything and always devs had problem with growing asurs and they visit lord vishnu which results into vishnu's another incarnation :) simple theory ;)

Janki ji, I would love to read more about what you posted ..


 
Like I mentioned (or did I mention?), I don't know from which source this story is from, because I read it in a children's Ramayana book and who knows how authentic that is? But if I ever come across it, I'll definitely let you guys know.
 
Did anyone read Ramesh Menon's translation of Ramayan? It looks like this:
 
 
If you go to the back of the book where the apendices are, you'll find a story where Dashrath and/or Kaushalya had a conflict with Ravan. I don't know from which source this author got the info, but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of Ravan/Dashrath story in here. It's been at least two to three years since I read this book, so I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's this one. If not, it might be Krishna Dharma's translation of Ramayan. I'll try to get both sometime this week and re-read them.

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