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jaisiyaram

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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 7:31pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

^ Yeah, I also like Vaman avatar. Bali was not completely innocent and he was out to get the throne of Indra so that the Danavas could rule the Devas, which would eventually result in Adharma ruling Dharma. Vishnu could never let that happen, so I can see complete justification in Vaman Avatar.
 
It is Parashuram's avatar in which I cannot see justification, and I still find it hard to believe Vishnu could have slaughtered innocent humans, esp since Ram and Krishna avatars were all about the protection of innocent beings. It doesn't make sense.

I am not sure but should we compare parshuram's killing kshatriyas and Krishna's allowing yadavs to kill themselves on a same scale?? As parshuram killed kshatriyas due to revenge and kshatriya's involvement in adharma's activities (I am not sure If I used the right word..).. at the same time Krishna wasn't happy with yadavs seeing them very proud on their strength and he actually pushed them to fight..so that society of yadavs can be demolished..

please comment and correct me if I am wrong somewhere..

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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 7:35pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by jaisiyaram

Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

^ Yeah, I also like Vaman avatar. Bali was not completely innocent and he was out to get the throne of Indra so that the Danavas could rule the Devas, which would eventually result in Adharma ruling Dharma. Vishnu could never let that happen, so I can see complete justification in Vaman Avatar.
 
It is Parashuram's avatar in which I cannot see justification, and I still find it hard to believe Vishnu could have slaughtered innocent humans, esp since Ram and Krishna avatars were all about the protection of innocent beings. It doesn't make sense.

I am not sure but should we compare parshuram's killing kshatriyas and Krishna's allowing yadavs to kill themselves on a same scale?? As parshuram killed kshatriyas due to revenge and kshatriya's involvement in adharma's activities (I am not sure If I used the right word..).. at the same time Krishna wasn't happy with yadavs seeing them very proud on their strength and he actually pushed them to fight..so that society of yadavs can be demolished..

please comment and correct me if I am wrong somewhere..
 
Hmm, I don't think we can compare them like that, because first off in Parashuram's case, it is unfair and biased to generalize all kshatriyas as sinners. That is the same thing as putting down one particular caste and Lord Vishnu, as displayed both in Ram and Krishna avatars, gave importance to all castes and never unfairly differentiated people. So Parashuram did kill innocent Kshatriyas, and that is the aspect I find hard to justify.
 
As for Shri Krishna and the Yadavas, Krishna needed a way in which to remove them from Earth, because no one in the world had the power to kill the Yadavas and they eventually had to leave Earth after Krishna Avatar, because no being can be immortal and there would be no use for them to continue on to Kali Yuga. Also, the Yadavas were all incarnations of Devtas, so they needed to return to their divine abode. If no one had the power to kill the Yadavas, how were they to leave Earth? So Krishna divised a plan where they killed each other. He personally never slaughtered them, they only slaughtered each other. So Krishna cannot be held directly accountable for that.
 
Interesting comparison though...

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jaisiyaram

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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 7:44pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

Originally posted by jaisiyaram

Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

^ Yeah, I also like Vaman avatar. Bali was not completely innocent and he was out to get the throne of Indra so that the Danavas could rule the Devas, which would eventually result in Adharma ruling Dharma. Vishnu could never let that happen, so I can see complete justification in Vaman Avatar.
 
It is Parashuram's avatar in which I cannot see justification, and I still find it hard to believe Vishnu could have slaughtered innocent humans, esp since Ram and Krishna avatars were all about the protection of innocent beings. It doesn't make sense.

I am not sure but should we compare parshuram's killing kshatriyas and Krishna's allowing yadavs to kill themselves on a same scale?? As parshuram killed kshatriyas due to revenge and kshatriya's involvement in adharma's activities (I am not sure If I used the right word..).. at the same time Krishna wasn't happy with yadavs seeing them very proud on their strength and he actually pushed them to fight..so that society of yadavs can be demolished..

please comment and correct me if I am wrong somewhere..
 
Hmm, I don't think we can compare them like that, because first off in Parashuram's case, it is unfair and biased to generalize all kshatriyas as sinners. That is the same thing as putting down one particular caste and Lord Vishnu, as displayed both in Ram and Krishna avatars, gave importance to all castes and never unfairly differentiated people. So Parashuram did kill innocent Kshatriyas, and that is the aspect I find hard to justify.
 
As for Shri Krishna and the Yadavas, Krishna needed a way in which to remove them from Earth, because no one in the world had the power to kill the Yadavas and they eventually had to leave Earth after Krishna Avatar, because no being can be immortal and there would be no use for them to continue on to Kali Yuga. Also, the Yadavas were all incarnations of Devtas, so they needed to return to their divine abode. If no one had the power to kill the Yadavas, how were they to leave Earth? So Krishna divised a plan where they killed each other. He personally never slaughtered them, they only slaughtered each other. So Krishna cannot be held directly accountable for that.
 
Interesting comparison though...

Yes true.. but Krishna's mind was behind yadav's departure.. And killing each other was the right medium as Krishna left with the message that absolute power can't be retained by any individual.. and one should not proud of it.. it's dharma which will take you to moksha not power! 

And after all everything was already preplanned.. the purpose was solved and there was no need of Yadavas.. 

Even ramayan was preplanned and in ramcharitramans..tulsidas ji explained that while leaving for vanvas, kaikai maa shown her disappointment for which shri ram said "maa, kuch mat bolo warna bhed khul jaayega (Please do not say anything, else the secret will be revealed..)".. so whenevery thing was planned why should we argue about ram banished sita episode.. !

(I am impossible, i took it from parshuram to krishna to yadavs to shri ram to tulsidas to uttar kand again... i won't get over it! )


Edited by jaisiyaram - 02 May 2011 at 7:46pm

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visrom

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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 8:05pm | IP Logged

I am back to the Dasha Avtar book again. In that again it was mentioned that the Yadavs had become vain and proud of their own powers, also because they felt they had Krishna with them they could do anything. Therefore they started destroying each other.

 
But here again, there is another factor involved - Gandhari. She has cursed Krishna for having allowed all her 100 sons to die, even though He had to power to prevent that. She had cursed Krishna that He would die a lonely death along with the entire Yadav clan. So, the Yadavs destroying themselves and Lord Krishna being hit by a hunter's arrow was due to Gandhari's curse.
 
But Parshuram is someone I am unable to accept, and I am happy that I am not alone. LOL  Maybe the Kshatriyas whom he detroyed had done something drastically wrong. Can't say.
 
There are also some varying opinions on the 9th avtar of Lord Vishnu. Dasha Avtar names Buddha as the 9th avtar, whereas in many temples of Lord Krishna I find Balram mentioned as an avtar of Vishnu. Both are things I am unable to accept.
 
I feel Balram was an avtar of Sesh Nag, just like Lakshman. (B R Chopras Mahabharat always showed Balram with a snake shaped crown.)
 
Would like to know your opinions on this too. 


Edited by visrom - 02 May 2011 at 8:25pm

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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 8:41pm | IP Logged
@Visrom

Quoting from Wikipedia about the avtaars Vishnu. They differ acc. to the Sources:


Dashavatara



The ten best known avatars of Vishnu are collectively known as the Dasavatara ("ten avatars"). This list is included in the Garuda Purana (1.86.10"11).[17]
The first four are said to have appeared in the Satya Yuga (the first of the four Yugas or ages in the time cycle described within Hinduism). The next three avatars appeared in the Treta Yuga, the eighth descent in the Dwapara Yuga and the ninth in the Kali Yuga. The tenth, Kalki, is predicted to appear at the end of the Kali Yuga.[18]


Matsya, the fish-avatar who saved Manu - the progeniter of mankind from the great deluge and rescued the Vedic scriptures by killing a demon. Story can be found in the Matsya Purana.

Kurma, the tortoise-avatar, who helped in the Samudra manthan - the churning of the ocean. Story can be found in the Kurma Purana.

Varaha, the boar-avatar, who rescued the earth from the ocean, by killing her kidnapper-demon Hiranyaksha. Story can be found in the Varaha Purana.

Narasimha, the half man-half lion avatar, who killed the tyrant demon-king Hiranyakashipu, to rescue the demon's son Prahlada, who was a Vishnu-devotee.

Vamana, the dwarf-avatar, who subdued the king Maha Bali. Story can be found in the Vamana Purana.

Parashurama, sage with the axe who killed the thousand-armed king Kartavirya Arjuna.

Rama, the king of Ayodhya and the hero of the Hindu epic Ramayana.

Krishna, the king of Dwarka, a central character in the Bhagavata Purana and the Mahabharata and reciter of Bhagavad Gita. However, in the original Dasavatara stotra, Balarama, the elder brother of Krishna, is stated as the eight incarnation, while Krishna (Lord Kesava) is the source of all the incarnation.[19]
.
Gautama Buddha[20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32]

Kalki ("Eternity", or "time", or "The Destroyer of foulness"), who is expected to appear at the end of Kali Yuga. Story can be found in the Kalki Purana.
[edit]In the Bhagavata Purana.





As many as forty specific avatars of Vishnu are mentioned in the Bhagavata Purana, though the book adds that the number is innumerable.[33] Twenty-two avatars of Vishnu are listed numerically in the first book:[34]

Four Kumaras [BP 1.3.6] - the four Sons of god Brahma

Varaha [BP 1.3.7]

Narada [BP 1.3.8] the divine-sage who travels the worlds as a devotee of Vishnu

Nara-Narayana [BP 1.3.9] - the twin-sages

Kapila [BP 1.3.10] - a sage and one of the founders of the Samkhya school of philosophy

Dattatreya [BP 1.3.11] - the combined avatar of the Hindu trinity Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.

Yajna [BP 1.3.12] - the lord of fire-sacrifice, who took was the Indra - the lord of heaven

Rishabha [BP 1.3.13] - the father of King Bharata and Bahubali

Prithu [BP 1.3.14] - the sovereign-king who milked the earth as a cow to get the world's grain and vegetation and also invented agriculture

Matsya [BP 1.3.15]

Kurma [BP 1.3.16]

Dhanvantari [BP 1.3.17] - the father of Ayurveda medicine

Mohini [BP 1.3.17] - the enchantress

Narasimha[BP 1.3.18]

Vamana [BP 1.3.19]

Parasurama [BP 1.3.20]

Vyasa [BP] 1.3.21] - the compiler of the scriptures - Vedas and writer of the scriptures Puranas and the epic Mahabharata

Rama [BP 1.3.22]

Balarama [BP 1.3.23]

Krishna [BP 1.3.23]

Buddha [BP 1.3.24]

Kalki [BP 1.3.25]



Besides these, another four avatars are described later on in the text as follows:

Prshnigarbha [BP 10.3.41] - the son of Prshni

Hayagriva [BP 2.7.11] - the horse-faced avatar

Hamsa [BP 11.13.19] - the swan

Golden avatra [BP 11.5.32] - the avatara in Kali-yuga for propagating hari-namasankirtan.[35]

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jaisiyaram

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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 8:44pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by visrom

I am back to the Dasha Avtar book again. In that again it was mentioned that the Yadavs had become vain and proud of their own powers, also because they felt they had Krishna with them they could do anything. Therefore they started destroying each other.

 
But here again, there is another factor involved - Gandhari. She has cursed Krishna for having allowed all her 100 sons to die, even though He had to power to prevent that. She had cursed Krishna that He would die a lonely death along with the entire Yadav clan. So, the Yadavs destroying themselves and Lord Krishna being hit by a hunter's arrow was due to Gandhari's curse.
 
But Parshuram is someone I am unable to accept, and I am happy that I am not alone. LOL  Maybe the Kshatriyas whom he detroyed had done something drastically wrong. Can't say.
 
There are also some varying opinions on the 9th avtar of Lord Vishnu. Dasha Avtar names Buddha as the 9th avtar, whereas in many temples of Lord Krishna I find Balram mentioned as an avtar of Vishnu. Both are things I am unable to accept.
 
I feel Balram was an avtar of Sesh Nag, just like Lakshman. (B R Chopras Mahabharat always showed Balram with a snake shaped crown.)
 
Would like to know your opinions on this too. 


Just found some thing from old threads:


Sheshnag is also an expansion of Vishnu. In that sense, Balaram was an incarnation of Vishnu. Yes, Laxman also can be considered as incarnation of Vishnu. In Valmiki Ramayan, all the four brothers are called incarnations of Vishnu. 


Although, I am not sure if that is true.. there are various sources which just ended with a note calling sheshnag as balram as 8th avatar and 9th as Krishna but they didn't clarify ..

Even buddha as incarnation of vishnu can't be digested.. I am sure buddhism must have some story and belief behind it.. and sources supports the same.. whether 10 or 40 avatars (as per vishnu puran) buddha is always counted..

Even in Islam, they mentioned about more than 1lac prophets and ram & krishna are few of them.. 

So different religions may have different point of view.. would love to explore more about sheshanaag though..

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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 9:45pm | IP Logged
To explain the Aim and various Features ( /''amshas') of the Lord in various incarnations, here I'm posting excerpts from some of the posts of Shivang, which he posted in a thread about Dashavataars in Orkut:


... The difference between Parshuram-Ram-Krishna-Buddh avtaars and Matsya-Kachchhap-Vaaraah-Narsinh-Vaaman is that the formers are incarnations picturizing a lifelong characters and stories. Latters are momentary incarnations. They incarnated for one action and their job was done.  Rather than analyzing (because of the limitations of our mind/ intellect), their leelas are there to be enjoyed by the Devotees. It will be difficult to answer the questions regarding their actions with a harmonised mind as they performed only a Single Action- and that very action itself was the action of 'Dharmsansthaapan' by way of destruction of evil or something else for which incarnation was aimed for.




WRT the concepts of various 'Kalaa'/ 'Aspects' of the Lord:


Sandipani's teaching about KALAA and INCARNATIONS

Source: 'Shri Krishna' serial

The various incarnations reveal 10 to 16 ASPECTS/ Kalas. What are the criteria to determine the ASPTECTS?


Every living creature has, within it, a power, which is a reflection of Lord, that's called an aspect. The amount of power within a living creature determines the aspects of that creature. This determines the status of the creature.


Plants have an aspect of 1. They want food and sleep. They can even be sad and happy. Birds and beasts have an aspect of 4, because they can use their intelligence. An ordinary man has an aspect of 5, while a cultured man has an aspect of 6. A highly evolved person with a God-like aura could even have an aspect of 7. Saints and hermits have an aspect of 8. Such beings are rarely seen on earth.


Man's body can't withstand aspects of more than 8. Only a divine body can imbibe 9 aspects. Like the Gods and heavenly ascetics Manu, Prajaapati, Lokpaal etc... After that, aspects of 10 and more can be seen only in the Lord himself. Like the Boar, Narsinh, Tortoise and Fish incarnations. They are also known as the Angry (or flash-momentary in case of Fish and Tortoise) incarnations. These incarnations have an aspect of 10 or 11. Sage Parashuram's was also an angry incarnation. All angry incarnations of Lord (including Vaaman and Parashuram) were having 10 to 11 aspects. Best among dutybound men, Lord Ram was having 12 aspects.


Finally - Shri Krishna to whom Sandipani was teaching had all the 16 aspects of Lord.

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Posted: 02 May 2011 at 11:28pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

^ Yeah, I also like Vaman avatar. Bali was not completely innocent and he was out to get the throne of Indra so that the Danavas could rule the Devas, which would eventually result in Adharma ruling Dharma. Vishnu could never let that happen, so I can see complete justification in Vaman Avatar.
 
It is Parashuram's avatar in which I cannot see justification, and I still find it hard to believe Vishnu could have slaughtered innocent humans, esp since Ram and Krishna avatars were all about the protection of innocent beings. It doesn't make sense.

Actually, no!  There was nothing adharm about Bali - he got his culture from Prahlad/Virochan.  The reason his war against Indra was started was not his ambitions, but rather b'cos Indra killed Virochan out of jealousy that Vishnu was happy w/ Virochan's behavior, and to make things worse, Indra even desecrated Virochan's body so that it couldn't get a proper cremation.  This is what enraged Bali and took him to war.  Don't conflate Devas == Dharm, and Asuras == Adharm, there were virtuous asuras like Prahlad, Virochan, Bali, Vibheeshan, while there were a lot of vile things Indra did, like hide Raja Sagar's horse in pataal near the ashram of Rishi Kapila, and cause the death of Sagar's 60,000 sons.  Or Indra's affair w/ Ahalya - in fact, that was the reason he lost his powers when it came to fighting Ravan and Indrajit.

In fact, here, Vishnu too was displeased w/ Indra, and refused to help him, w/ the result that Bali had no trouble overrunning Devalok.  The reason Vishnu did ultimately intervene was due to Aditi's tapasya - she couldn't bear to see the Devas humiliated, and begged Vishnu to forgive her son and help him.  And this is where I disagree w/ Vishnu - he should have just declined her, and told her that he supports dharm, be it from the devas or the asuras, and right now, the asuras were on the side of dharm.  During his reign, Bali did not persecute the denizens of bhulok like say Hiranyaksha did.  So Vamana avatar was not really needed.

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