Pavitra Rishta

India-Forums

   
Pavitra Rishta
Pavitra Rishta

Kool Comments : Feb 26 (Page 5)

koolsadhu1000 IF-Sizzlerz
koolsadhu1000
koolsadhu1000

Joined: 03 July 2007
Posts: 20976

Posted: 26 February 2011 at 9:35pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by naava

Originally posted by koolsadhu1000

........... Which people did she swallow ? 
1. She swallowed Shravani because Shravani's family could bring wealth.  Then when that failed, she consumed her to the point that she manipulated her to give up her son. 
2. She consumed Sachu because of greed ...she didn't want him for his benefit, that she could teach him and raise him better,....only because of her selfishness
3. She constantly tries to consume Manav, wanting him only for herself
4. She consumes to this day Sachin, using his death as a manipulative tool ..trying to make everyone feel " sorry for her"..  Damodar also lost a son, Manav lost a brother, but only Savita is allowed the grief.
5. I think her real beef with Archana is that she can't swallow  her. (in addition to her insane jealousy)
6 Savita;s greed for people is that she wants everything for herself..it's her way of control..she doesn't want them for their happiness...only her own. 

Savita and Damodar -the D house - exhibit all the symptoms of severe alcholic households.  It is indeed sick by any standard.  Children of these households are taught directly or indirectly they are the cause.  This isn't sick? 
Blaming someone else is always the name of the game in this type of dynamic.

....her son Sachin died due to the machinations of the Karanjkar Bahu .
Sachin died because a car ran into him as he was running down the middle of the street. It was Shravani's father who had rejected him.  It was not Achana's fault. 

While fair and unfair may be subjective in some cases, how can it ever be fair to blame the victim of someones greed and anger to be the cause of it.  

Sorry Kools, i love ya' and i know we always disagree on Savita,  but i had to say something. Hope you will welcome the dialogue. You speak strongly, i hope you welcome my strong words also- i say them in love  :)   We do agree on many things  ...but like always, on this issue,...agreeing to disagree is the best solution for us.  Smile    ps. we do better with food and recipes maybe.Wink   Hug
 
 
Sorry , I STRONGLY disagree with ALL your POINTS .
 
She did NOT set out to consume Shravani AT ALL . Consuming is BARBAAD karna . Savita had NO intention of WRECKING Shravani's life AT ALL . She was going to HAPPILY welcome her as a bahu with open arms  . Their dream of going to America for a life was WELCOME to her , with an occasional trip thrown in for her like ANY OTHER INDIAN PARENT WISHES . Not ONCE did she treat Shravani badly or ill treat her . She was the closest person to a MOTHER in Shravani's life ...........Shravani NEVER had a problem with her . Manav toiled to give Sachin and Vandita an education . So it was EXPECTED by her as a parent that at least they have an upper middle class life via marraige ..........the shortest way to climb  the ladder of social success .......by landing RICH and EDUCATED proposals . Was it so WRONG ? Sulochana wanted it too and so does ANY indian mother . Tomorrow if I look for proposals for My daughters if they permit me to , I too will look for RICH and EDUCATED guys . I won't look for "LOVE" . This is the way arranged marraiges r done . The only thing was She being uneducated and crass was very vOCAL about it while the educated moms like Sulo and Bhavna r diplomatically refined about their EXPECTATIONS . Sulo's MAJOR grouse against Manav was that He was a MECHANIC not an ENGINEER .
 
As far as her personal attraction towards jewellery or money goes , I put it down to her poverty .She never had the good things in life and was unashamed to admit she hankered for them .I see many HI society ladies hankering for jewllery inspite of being rich , its not at all UNCOMMON .
 
She took Sachu away from Shravani and is HENCE called a Baby snatcher . Did she go around snatching babies when her son was living , was she a PAGAL woman or a CRUEL one ? I don't think so  naava . When did this obsession come in ? When her son died and when she took solace in his last souvenir . She clutched it and got the relief a pain killing tablet gives an incurable CANCER . The Cancer was SAchin who had gone and wud NEVER come back ..........the pain killing tablet was little Sachu who eased her pain temporarily and made her grief BEARABLE .
 
And btw if u blame the truck driver and Sachin's drunkenness for his death , then surely u will blame Shravani for GIVING up her son ..........nobody can snatch anything if the other person doesnt give it up .This same Shravani had IGNORED her tears and cries and succesfully walked away with little Sachu from the wedding Mandap upon her behest . Nobody CONSUMED Shravani ...........Shravani consumed HERSELF by relying too much on Manav , believing in his promises , not doing a thing inspite of being so rich , and later giving up her own son .
 
No way does she consume Little Sachu . Yes the grief crazed Grandma asked for him but he was ultimately discarded by his mother . She LOVES him and ADORES him . She wud lay down her LIFE for him . Or KILL for him . Sachu's unfortunate FATE consumes him .........His Dad died , his mom left him and the Duo who promised to be there for him when he was in his moms tummy is busy romancing each other and has OTHER PRIORITIES now and they too have forgotten him . A MOST ill fated child , our little Sachu . Thank God he has SAvita who at least GENUINELY loves him , coz Manav Kaka used him today in a dialogue only to get back at his mom . Manav Kaka didnt ONCE go to see him after marraige to Archana Kaki .
 
She does NOT want Manav only for HERSELF . Like she brought Shravanis rishta for SAchin , at a point she was ready to look for OTHER Rishtas for Manav . She only wanted Archana out . She wanted a nice rich girl whose family wud respect her and Manav . Actually this happened with Shravani later ..........the Mahadiks were nice and rich and respected Manav better than the Karanjkars do even at this point . I feel so ZAPPED to read the comments that she is SELFISH for being financially dependent on her son by many viewers . Its an INDIAN family in INDIA . That country is REPLETE with elder sons like Manav .........they r NOT being USED , what a petty way of looking at it this is ! No offense , this remark is for GENERAL , not for u . If a mom won't depend on a son for financial help then on whom will she depend on ........STRANGERS ? My Dad , the eldest son of his family took ALL responsibility of his Parents and his EIGHT siblings in the village by alone toiling in Mumbai , bringing each one here to have a job after he or she matriculated .The sisters were married off , the brothers were put in night college and a job was arranged for them . Thats the way it is . Why use such ugly words like his childhood was ripped off by his mom or that she used him . It is the Indian way . Bas . Her deep love for Manav is for ALL to see .
 
 
If Damodar and Manav don't feel that much grief and have moved on then evidently she has felt the loss more as a MOTHER . There was a time when I used precisely these words .........she plays the victim ..........but not anymore . I changed my mind . I write what I see and I did NOT see Damodar getting that deeply affected and Manav is always well controlled .
 
Her real beef with Archana is she cannot consume her u say .........I disagree . If she was THAT evil and THAT carnivorous as u say , She wud cleverly pretend to do SAMJHOTA with Archana and get her son in the house . Then when son left for work she cud set out to 'CONSUME" Archana as u put it , and trust me it wud be a VERY EASY TASK as Archana doesn't mind abuse when it is from selected people whom she allows . Like Manju coz she is her darling bro's wife so Archana gives her ETERNAL immunity and Savita coz she is her darling Manav's mom . Oh boy Savita can consume Archana in a jiffy if she PLANS it .........Archana is a CAKEWALK .
 
Girish's phone call was a result of the SPOILT prospects for his daughter in this proposal after the jailing that can be traced to Manjus complaint .Infact EVERY tragedy of Archana is traced back to that complaint . And Archana REFUSED to press charges against Manju when Savita asked her to prove her genuine repentance and by being in cahoots with her chamcha sasur who was ALWAYS on HER SIDE , she provided Manju anticipatory bail and SAVED her butt when finally Vandu pressed the charges .
 
Damodar may be an alcoholic but he HASN"T ever hit his children and loves them deeply . He was not a good financial provider thats all . So did Savita love ALL her 3 children deeply .Two of the children gew up with education too and they had a roof over their head , food on the table , both parents loved them and the elder responsible brother worked .Sounds like a SICK family to u ? Doesn't to me . The educated Sachin for a brief time was flrtatious and irresponsible but after meeting a nice gal , changed for the better . It was a nice , normal family . Hundreds of them in India . There was no domestic abuse there or the children wud NEVER turn out this good . Manav , Sachin and Vandita were as normal as Varshu , Vaishu and Vinod .
 
Savita wants to be in control u say and wants everything HER way u say .........Who DOESN"T ? Sulo didnt want Archu to marry Manav , she SLAPPED him , she INSISTED she marry Jaywant , Bhavana wants POTA whether Varsha is ready for it or not , Damodar DRINKS selfishly whether it increases Manavs burden or not , Archana selfishly came on Shravnis wedding day after her promises and divorces to check out if she had a chance with Manav still . Manav was USING Shravani to keep little Sachu in family and flirting with Archana . So why blame poor Savita for a very human tendency present in ALL in PR ? She has her reasons .
 
I too love u dear but I HAD to reply . Why wud I be offended by any kind of dialogue ? But ur right lets firmly agree to disagree and indeed the recipes r perhaps the areas where we will see eye to eye .LOLLOLLOL
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

The following 8 member(s) liked the above post:

Not_a_fanCuteCherryJaishankarLuvSSever--Hope--ektarfapyarlunzaTiyali

koolsadhu1000 IF-Sizzlerz
koolsadhu1000
koolsadhu1000

Joined: 03 July 2007
Posts: 20976

Posted: 26 February 2011 at 9:45pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by unknown18

Kool, agree with u.

The SON Manav died today.
 
I will tell u WHY he died . He died coz he told a grieving woman who had already LOST his brother GO I AM NOT UR SON ANYMORE . I agree TOTALLY with what sowmya said in her post .........the CURSES of a mother fall on such a son if the pain breaks her heart and she DIES from inside . Did not say this in the commentary coz didnt want to offend viewers who r crazy about ARMAN .But I cudnt BEAR Manav today .

The following 4 member(s) liked the above post:

Not_a_fan--Hope--shermaunknown18

--Hope-- IF-Rockerz
--Hope--
--Hope--

Joined: 18 March 2010
Posts: 5309

Posted: 26 February 2011 at 10:37pm | IP Logged

I have read your commentary and I read the update and all the posts on this thread and I decided to watch the epi after many moons.   There were two scenes that stood out for me.

One, the scene where he visits and she was talking to sachu and the last scene captured in your commentary. I have followed this show for a while and all I can tell you is that I am very weary of all the drama and tension in this show. i find some of it is very futile and conjured while some of it is very gripping.

it is very very ironic i started watching this show because there was something about the characters archana and manav that had me spellbound.  He adored her but could not have here. There was something so gripping seeing his adoration of her and his internal struggle as a responsible son and a lover.  Now the leads leave me unmoved.  Since the day they decided to divorce i lost interest in them. In fact even the prospect of a reunion was unexciting for me.

toay's arman scene was irrelevant for me. Though i have to say that after you have repeatedly taken them to task on the lead romance they are working on that now. Shows some progress.
The romance is long dead for me in this show. There is no longer manav -archana love story for me. This is a sushant ankita fan fest going on.  The only human interest element - the true drama that is left is manav savita love hate tug of war.  The rest of the drama is ill conceived

Today I do not feel like saying who is right and wrong because in some measure everyone is wrong.

in the first scene where he visits and she is expressing her regret for her last words and voicing her anguish there was the look of a son in Manav's eyes and believe me it has been a long time since I saw a scene of manav and savita without archana and without any confrontation between manav and mom.  I actually was taken back to memories of the first few epis when they introduced the character manav. kools do you remember how happy that family used to be? With sachin and van
dita and manav and kaka? There was no damodhar then.   He was a travelling actor.  The family scenes were so much more fun to watch than the k family scenes which were always way to saccharine for my taste.   It is only after the marriage that all the conflict set in.  I still remember how happy savita was with her kids.  It pains me to see savita's life so barren and lonely now. She is truly alone and childess. You can almost say she is an orphan.

All I can say is I wish manav had seen her face while she was talking to sachu. He would have not seen hate but he would have seen anguish and fear. He would have seen the orphan I saw.  I wonder if after looking at the lost look in her eyes he would have let her words affect him as much.  There were several scenes today when had this been a real life situation I would have felt an instinctive desire to hold this woman and give her some much needed reassurance. Her state is pitiful.

In the scene that followed - you know he spoke to his mother in that cold way. Even then I did not feel the anger everyone felt here because of the flow of the scene. It was that last line he said - his dismissal - leave I am not your son anymore

that last line - that very last line. That was it for me.

It is clear to anyone who has encountered or experienced this that savita is suffering from early stages depression (the clinical variety not the everyday high maintenance female variety). Not sure if they will show it as alzheimers. She portrays the character's mental hysteria and chaos beautifully.  Typically as people go deeper into depression they withdraw within and it is very painful to watch such people. They seem out of your reach. depression is very very difficult to overcome an painful for family members to experience.  I have seen such people lash out defensively in one instance and then in the very next instance cower and display deep anxiety and fear. Ushaji portrayed it well.  I wonder if she researched the symptoms or she just got lucky with the portrayal.

I think that the next few epis will be very difficult to stomach as Ushaji is a very very high calibre actress.

BTW, arman have been absent from sachin's life for a while so how did archu recognise him in the market place? that seemed odd to me.

Hope

ps. my fonts are all crazy sorry about that

The following 8 member(s) liked the above post:

enigma6Not_a_fanCuteCherryLuvSSevershootingstar27ektarfapyarlunzakoolsadhu1000

koolsadhu1000 IF-Sizzlerz
koolsadhu1000
koolsadhu1000

Joined: 03 July 2007
Posts: 20976

Posted: 26 February 2011 at 11:00pm | IP Logged
kools do you remember how happy that family used to be? With sachin and vandita and manav and kaka? There was no damodhar then. 
.
Yes I remember it VERY well . How Sachin frequented the kitchen to have his special talks with Savita . How Vandu was the adorable , well behaved little sister of bOTH the brothers . How Manav came home after a hard day's work and said MAST when his mom told him it was Cauliflower RASSA for dinner .How  he searched for his drunk Dad on his way home from work ........Work ended , but not his responsibilities . Damodar was not around much then so we were spared the horror of his nasty comments then .We Had Kaka who reprimanded Savita but also loved her like an Elder brother and Jeth . And we saw how Savita . crass though she may be , dutifully respected him . It was a BEAUTIFUL family , so much more interesting than the sugar sweet phoney Karanjkars . Never found it sick on any level , truly .

The following 4 member(s) liked the above post:

enigma6Not_a_fanJaishankarlunza

karsri Senior Member
karsri
karsri

Joined: 31 January 2010
Posts: 650

Posted: 27 February 2011 at 12:47am | IP Logged
Originally posted by naava

Originally posted by koolsadhu1000

........... Which people did she swallow ? 
1. She swallowed Shravani because Shravani's family could bring wealth.  Then when that failed, she consumed her to the point that she manipulated her to give up her son. 
2. She consumed Sachu because of greed ...she didn't want him for his benefit, that she could teach him and raise him better,....only because of her selfishness
3. She constantly tries to consume Manav, wanting him only for herself
4. She consumes to this day Sachin, using his death as a manipulative tool ..trying to make everyone feel " sorry for her"..  Damodar also lost a son, Manav lost a brother, but only Savita is allowed the grief.
5. I think her real beef with Archana is that she can't swallow  her. (in addition to her insane jealousy)
6 Savita;s greed for people is that she wants everything for herself..it's her way of control..she doesn't want them for their happiness...only her own. 

Savita and Damodar -the D house - exhibit all the symptoms of severe alcholic households.  It is indeed sick by any standard.  Children of these households are taught directly or indirectly they are the cause.  This isn't sick? 
Blaming someone else is always the name of the game in this type of dynamic.

....her son Sachin died due to the machinations of the Karanjkar Bahu .
Sachin died because a car ran into him as he was running down the middle of the street. It was Shravani's father who had rejected him.  It was not Achana's fault. 

While fair and unfair may be subjective in some cases, how can it ever be fair to blame the victim of someones greed and anger to be the cause of it.  

Sorry Kools, i love ya' and i know we always disagree on Savita,  but i had to say something. Hope you will welcome the dialogue. You speak strongly, i hope you welcome my strong words also- i say them in love  :)   We do agree on many things  ...but like always, on this issue,...agreeing to disagree is the best solution for us.  Smile    ps. we do better with food and recipes maybe.Wink   Hug
 


 Naava, I agree with everything you said. I want to add one more thing. Savita is the root cause for sachin's death. It was her greed for money. she wanted to get very rich daughter-in-law when she and  her son is not worth 100rs. In real life girish would have got sachin beaten up instead of agreeing for the marriage. But girish agreed on one condition that his daughter goes away to us.
Savita is herself to blame (all the evil things she has done) for her condition today.  Manav was  right today, when he said "you don't love me". I am glad he finally realised it.  Loosing manav who is her slave , money making machine made her go mental, which she never expected in her life.

I sympathise with her condition but don't feel bad for her.... MY POV

I hope they don't show manav feeling guilty for his mother's sickness. They should show him feeling bad  and helping her though she never cared for his happiness actually try to ruin his happiness.


Edited by karsri - 27 February 2011 at 1:05am
Not_a_fan Senior Member
Not_a_fan
Not_a_fan

Joined: 16 September 2006
Posts: 668

Posted: 27 February 2011 at 1:36am | IP Logged

 Naava, I agree with everything you said. I want to add one more thing. Savita is the root cause for sachin's death. It was her greed for money. she wanted to get very rich daughter-in-law when she and  her son is not worth 100rs. In real life girish would have got sachin beaten up instead of agreeing for the marriage. But girish agreed on one condition that his daughter goes away to us.
Savita is herself to blame (all the evil things she has done) for her condition today.  Manav was  right today, when he said "you don't love me". I am glad he finally realised it.  Loosing manav who is her slave , money making machine made her go mental, which she never expected in her life.

I sympathise with her condition but don't feel bad for her.... MY POV

I hope they don't show manav feeling guilty for his mother's sickness. They should show him feeling bad  and helping her though she never cared for his happiness actually try to ruin his happiness.
[/QUOTE]

Who is to decide how much is a person's worth? How is a person's worth measured and by whom? And why is it wrong if somebody aspires to get more than their "worth"? Everybody should aspire to better and be more "worthy" according to me. Savita or Sachin did not cheat Shravani and Girish- they both knew about Deshmukh home environment and the people there. In real life, nobody would bring their souten with aarti while still married- girish accepting sachin is not as illogical and unreal as some other situations depicted in the show. She is greedy, yes. But does that mean and overshadow her love for her son? She was the one who defended him in front of everybody, when anybody else was with him or not. Even when Damodar and Archana in the beginning stood quiet listening to Manav being insulted, she stood by him. Like Kool said in her reply to the post, in India, sons are depended upon to look after parents. Its not like the West where a person starts earning and becomes independent as early as their teen years, and move out of parents house. Neither do DILs go to in-laws house after marriage. However, in India, sons still live with parents and bring their wives to parents house after marriage. In such scenarios, parents who are getting older and retire depend on sons income. It is prevalent and natural. In this case, Manav started earning from a very young age, but we're also talking about a lower middle class family living in a chawl with a father not having stead income.

No offense, but using words like slave and mental so callously is wrong. Manav has never been Savita's slave nor has Manav ever been only a money-making machine. She genuinely loves him is the truth, whatever are her other character defects. She is greedy and aggressive and all of those, but nobody's perfect. For that matter, Archana is also greedy for Manav's love and will do anything for it-including welcoming Shravan while still married, divorcing Manav when everybody including Savita didnt want her to, and then getting engaged to a guy she had no intention of truly committing herself to. They are just greedy for different things, and show it differently.

Manav should most definitely feel guilty for ignoring his mother. How much time does it take to go check up on her every day for 5 mins to let her know he still cares for her? Or even once in 2-3 days-just go and  talk to her for a few mins, enquire about her well being and little Sachu. They even live in the same chawl. That is her biggest problem with Archana, that she has taken Savita's place in Manav's life. And Manav and Damodar have been emphasizing this point often. It is natural, if misdirected, for Savita to hate Archana who in her eyes has disrupted her life and taken her son and husband. And Manav is doing nothing to show her that he still loves her even after being married to Archana. Mother and wife are independent relations and have their own place and importance. One should not be so consumed by one bond that you forget the other, be it the mother or wife. Manav was wrong when he ingored Archana for his mother, and he's wrong now when he's ignoring his mother for Archana.


Edited by sowmya_jairam - 27 February 2011 at 1:38am

The following 5 member(s) liked the above post:

CuteCherryJaishankarlunzaektarfapyarkoolsadhu1000

Jaishankar IF-Dazzler
Jaishankar
Jaishankar

Joined: 12 March 2007
Posts: 4276

Posted: 27 February 2011 at 2:14am | IP Logged
"Manav was wrong when he ingored Archana for his mother, and he's wrong now when he's ignoring his mother for Archana"

Sowmya yaar well said Clap these lines tell the whole  story of Manav's life . I think Manav being a reserved guy has been reserved and scared to take decisions ,(i.e) right decisions that has left him at this position.Always thinking about others but excluding the concern parties for eg thinking about what will society say if Shravani is left alone and I need to take responsibility for Sachin's fault Confused and then living Archu at sea whereas the simple solution was to either adopt sachin or get Shravani married to some good person. Instead Manav has always been digging grave for himself unfortunately and always needed some one to help him out which is Archu. I think coz of this he is unable to handle situations and come up with solutions and now again he is facing the same thing and once he knows Savita sickness instead of thinking what to do next he is going to blame himself and completely break rather than thinking how to take care of his mom and would need Archu to guide him and tell him what to do. Its high time Manav starts thinking about solutions instead of problems


Edited by Jaishankar - 27 February 2011 at 2:16am

The following 6 member(s) liked the above post:

enigma6Not_a_fanCuteCherryLuvSSevershootingstar27koolsadhu1000

lunza IF-Rockerz
lunza
lunza

Joined: 15 January 2006
Posts: 9963

Posted: 27 February 2011 at 3:45am | IP Logged
The moment he said "go , i am not your son anymore" .. .i knew you are going to rip him apart in the commentary ..
Still , i went , OUCH , OUCH AND OUCH , reading your cmntry and replies in the thread .. esp to naava's post ..Ouch
aww man... never seen you go so hard on any character , not even archana ...
Sigh .. nothing he does now will make you respect him the same way as before , right ? Unhappy
Maybe I am in the minority here , but i felt bad for manav as well as savita ... maybe its bcuz the way the scene was written and the way sushant emoted ( "lump in your throat" dialogues , " i guess i dont deserve to be your son" , " i am not your son anymore" etc..)... ushaji was bloody brilliant ...
One of the most intense scenes between these two ...
Sushant has got lots of awards , hope ushaji too gets a big one this year .. the ITA ..
Just wish they had not included the last dialogue ... kinda ruined it ...

Whatever manav said to his mom today , it is going to come back and bite him real bad ...


Edited by lunza - 27 February 2011 at 10:00am

The following 5 member(s) liked the above post:

enigma6Not_a_fanLuvSSevershootingstar27koolsadhu1000

Go to top

Related Topics

  Topics Author Replies Views Last Post
Kool's Commentary : Aug 23 PR

2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 12 13

Author: koolsadhu1000   Replies: 98   Views: 7101

koolsadhu1000 98 7101 24 August 2010 at 9:17am by Tanyaz
Kool's Commentary : Aug 20 PR

2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 45 46

Author: koolsadhu1000   Replies: 367   Views: 16816

koolsadhu1000 367 16816 23 August 2010 at 9:10am by shams295
Kool's Commentary : Aug 19 PR

2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 20 21

Author: koolsadhu1000   Replies: 160   Views: 10065

koolsadhu1000 160 10065 20 August 2010 at 10:06pm by Dabulls23
Kool's commentary : Aug 18 PR

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Author: koolsadhu1000   Replies: 65   Views: 5459

koolsadhu1000 65 5459 19 August 2010 at 9:58am by Dabulls23
Kool's Commentary : Aug 17 PR

2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 24 25

Author: koolsadhu1000   Replies: 192   Views: 11418

koolsadhu1000 192 11418 18 August 2010 at 12:54pm by ektarfapyar

Forum Quick Jump

Forum Category / Channels
Forums

Pavitra Rishta Topic Index

Check these Celebrity also

Disclaimer: All Logos and Pictures of various Channels, Shows, Artistes, Media Houses, Companies, Brands etc. belong to their respective owners, and are used to merely visually identify the Channels, Shows, Companies, Brands, etc. to the viewer. Incase of any issue please contact the webmaster.

Popular Channels :
Star Plus | Zee TV | Sony TV | Colors TV | SAB TV | Life OK

Quick Links :
Top 100 TV Celebrities | Top 100 Bollywood Celebs | About Us | Contact Us | Advertise | Forum Index